Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

kowalskil

#1Jan 19th, 2011

I would very much like to know what people on this website think about peaceful coexistence between those who study our material world (scientists) and those who study our spiritual world (theologians). My attempt to write an essay on that subject failed, as you can see at:

--

The webpage was prepared to generate a discussion. Those who post comments should refer to specific “contributions,” as numbered (or to specific persons, as numbered at the beginning). This will simplify the discussion.

And let us keep in mind that the main topic is peaceful coexistence. Is it possible? Is it desirable? What should we do promote it? etc.

Thank you in advance,

Ludwik Kowalski, author of “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.” Click the link below.

--
==========================================

darkbeaver

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

It (peaceful cooperation) requires being enlightened to the fact that science and spirit are studies or approaches to power. The division is imposed and unnatural hence the friction. Who can discover and not be spiritually raised? Who can be spiritually raised and not discover?

talloola

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

a peaceful co existence can be found between 'any' two opposites, if they accept the right of
the other to think what they think, without harrassment, can't see it happening between the two
you mention.

Then again, it comes down to the particular individual, good friends can be good friends, and know
'that' is the most important ingredient, and not the banging of heads over beliefs or discoveries.

And very very good friends, who are extremely intelligent, can bang heads over their beliefs or
discoveries, without losing the friendship, go for a beer after, and continue on.

One definitely cannot sit on the fence with the belief side or the discovery side, one is one,
and the other is the other, maybe agnostics, they seem to be open to wondering about everything,
but can't make a stand on either, they are waiting, waiting, waiting.

kowalskil

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

It (peaceful cooperation) requires being enlightened to the fact that science and spirit are studies or approaches to power. The division is imposed and unnatural hence the friction. Who can discover and not be spiritually raised? Who can be spiritually raised and not discover?

You wrote: "the division is imposed and unnatural hence the friction." The division is part of our history. What did happen should not be ignored, by enlightened scientists and theologians. No one benefits from the division today.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

darkbeaver

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Opposites attract, man woman, negative positive, even the night attracts the light, and they all get along very nicely. Science and spirit are complimentry. Is their really a fence between them? I don't think there has to be. Some scientist will tell you that the material evidence drives his work but he's forgotten the creative arts and the dreams that allowed him in the end to touch a material fact. A scientist unanimated by spirit will discover nothing.

petros

#6 Top Rated Post

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

There is a restraining order in the US. Religion is to keep 300yds. from Science at all times.

darkbeaver

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

You wrote: "the division is imposed and unnatural hence the friction." The division is part of our history. What did happen should not be ignored, by enlightened scientists and theologians. No one benefits from the division today.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)

.

If no one benefited from division then why sir is there a surplus of division? Sure what did happen should never be ignored but what did not happen should also not be ignored, in fact it can't be, simply because the one qualifies the other. The division is very much a part of our present. We will not easily convince the devisive among us to lay down the tools of trade that sustain them will we? The enlightened, by definition are incapable of ignorance of any kind.
Now to my favourite division, that which rages between the uniformists and the catastrophists. One side in sack cloth intent on discovery of fundemental truth and the other state sanctioned,intent on the maintenance of error. Clearly a division of note. I think you're a bit hasty declaring that no one benefits from divsion today. in my humble opinion

kowalskil

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

... I think you're a bit hasty declaring that no one benefits from divsion today, in my humble opinion.

OK, let me put it in a slightly different way. Neither honest scientists nor honest theologians benefit from the "we are right and you are wrong" claims.

Ludwik
.

darkbeaver

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

OK, let me put it in a slightly different way. Neither honest scientists nor honest theologians benefit from the "we are right and you are wrong" claims.

Ludwik
.

A very reasonable reply, but, how will we judge the spiritual characteristic of honesty from individual to individual. I despair of ever finding an honest man. (approximation) That question of relative honesty, wasn't science to provided that very gauge, and isn't that the fear of every honest theologian?

What would total peaceful co existence do to mankind? How would we differentiate between good and bad? Where would all the good experience of learning from bad experience go?

kowalskil

#10

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

A very reasonable reply, but, how will we judge the spiritual characteristic of honesty from individual to individual. I despair of ever finding an honest man. (approximation) That question of relative honesty, wasn't science to provided that very gauge, and isn't that the fear of every honest theologian?

What would total peaceful co existence do to mankind? How would we differentiate between good and bad? Where would all the good experience of learning from bad experience go?

These are good questions. I will also be waiting for answers, probably from people much more knowledgeable than I am.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

darkbeaver

#11

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

These are good questions. I will also be waiting for answers, probably from people much more knowledgeable than I am.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

Me too, that's why I asked.

petros

#12

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

The orgins of science are religious. For Arsitotle, Plato, Archimedes, Pythagorus science was religion and they were very low key about what they practiced until Platonism slowly leaked out. They were al khemists, scientists and philsophers, astronomers, astrologers but they found spirituality in it.

kowalskil

#13

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

These are good questions. I will also be waiting for answers, probably from people much more knowledgeable than I am.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

P.S. I forgot to tell you that the little boy on the photo is me, with parents. The photo was taken in 1936, two years before they took my father away. He died in Kolyma, two years later, at the age of 36. Kolyma is in the Western Siberia; it was the most horrible part of Gulag Archipelago.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

eh1eh

#14

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

Me too, that's why I asked.

Indeed. Good question. Divide and conquer is a maxim of the ages which has proven effective.

kowalskil

#15

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

The orgins of science are religious. For Arsitotle, Plato, Archimedes, Pythagorus science was religion and they were very low key about what they practiced until Platonism slowly leaked out. They were al khemists, scientists and philsophers, astronomers, astrologers but they found spirituality in it.

The same was true for Newton, about 350 years ago.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
.

petros

#16

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Newton was obsessed with cracking the Philosopher's Stone. He would have been on trial for heresay and jail in the Tower of London (or worse) if anyone ever knew.

A nice painting the liven up the thread entitled.

Pythagoreans Celebrate Sunrise

darkbeaver

#17

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

The orgins of science are religious. For Arsitotle, Plato, Archimedes, Pythagorus science was religion and they were very low key about what they practiced until Platonism slowly leaked out. They were al khemists, scientists and philsophers, astronomers, astrologers but they found spirituality in it.

But you don't know how science works they'll say or this is all boogabooga, science was not invented till recently they'll say etc; I understand that some think there's quite a bit of science involved in building a pyramid but we know that can't be true, they just got lucky ya know.

petros

#18

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Yeah all it took was skills and seeds from the people on the Northern Steppes by the Black Sea to teach them agriculture and next thing ya know voilà, giant monuments built by wandering mathematicians and men who were giants all thanks to grain, oil and a plum bob.

darkbeaver

#19

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by eh1eh

Indeed. Good question. Divide and conquer is a maxim of the ages which has proven effective.

Absolutely for sure certainly of course exactly but you just try telling someone you can make big bucks in that game and they'll tell you to get stuffed every time. If you ain't got at least two teams your game is going nowhere eh. The hidden third side always wins all that's necessary is that the game happens.

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Newton was obsessed with cracking the Philosopher's Stone. He would have been on trial for heresay and jail in the Tower of London (or worse) if anyone ever knew.

A nice painting the liven up the thread entitled.

Pythagoreans Celebrate Sunrise

Real good lyre science by that bunch .

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Yeah all it took was skills and seeds from the people on the Northern Steppes by the Black Sea to teach them agriculture and next thing ya know voilà, giant monuments built by wandering mathematicians and men who were giants all thanks to grain, oil and a plum bob.

They brought cannabis with them from the Caspian wilds as well. I consider that the flux of the whole process without which nothing much of any importance would or could ever have happened.

petros

#20

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

Real good lyre science by that bunch .

They brought cannabis with them from the Caspian wilds as well. I consider that the flux of the whole process without which nothing much of any importance would or could ever have happened.

They are playing Musica Unversalis.

Yeah, Ancient Ukrainians spread their knowledge, ruderalis cannabis, wheat and rye seed as they were the first to tame and ride the horse 6000 years ago.

They were huge people in comparison to those who lived in ancient deserts of Khemet (Egypt) which started the legends of giants and even gods.

Unforgiven

#21

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Kowalskil, an interesting name. Welcome.

You make some interesting observations from what I have read from you so far.
Though here you make a mistake.
Coexistence and cooperation are not at all the same thing.
So while one is simply yes, the other is as simply no.

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

I would very much like to know what people on this website think about peaceful coexistence between those who study our material world (scientists) and those who study our spiritual world (theologians). My attempt to write an essay on that subject failed, as you can see at:

--

The webpage was prepared to generate a discussion. Those who post comments should refer to specific “contributions,” as numbered (or to specific persons, as numbered at the beginning). This will simplify the discussion.

And let us keep in mind that the main topic is peaceful coexistence. Is it possible? Is it desirable? What should we do promote it? etc.

Thank you in advance,

Ludwik Kowalski, author of “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.” Click the link below.

--
==========================================

Or course two mutually loathing paradigms as science and religion can exist peacefully by virtue of ignoring each other. Though this seems highly unlikely as one is selling while the other isn't buying.

I do hope my injection of English slang doesn't confuse.

Peaceful cooperation on the other hand is impossible as religion at some point forces the issue of taking one's word on the subject while science is exactly not that. Demonstrate or remain nothing more than a belief.

The third aspect and probably the least interesting is the difference between scientist and theologians.

I would say it is dependant on the person though the properties of each vocation shouldn't stand in the way of the two getting along in finding common ground. But only if they can at some point agree to disagree and carry on with the rest of it.

darkbeaver

#22

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

They are playing Musica Unversalis.

Yeah, Ancient Ukrainians spread their knowledge, ruderalis cannabis, wheat and rye seed as they were the first to tame and ride the horse 6000 years ago.

They were huge people in comparison to those who lived in ancient deserts of Khemet (Egypt) which started the legends of giants and even gods.

How many times do you suppose a migration like that has happened on earth? Virtually all extant histories speak of superior visitors imparting superior knowledge. Much of it is fantastical to us linear rote learners and thus easily discarded to the myth bin. Has there ever been a species on any planet so intent on myth building do you suppose? I think we make a grave error in thinking we have never been this highly developed on this planet. There is a lot of geological time for every sort of civilization to have risen and disappeared without our being aware. We've gone from hide wearing wildmen to rayon wearing lounge lizards in short geologically terms and we could have done it over and over again. Always the same lessons always the same mistakes always the same results. Someone who remembered history could take great advantage of that, if they had the ability to avoid the natural and man made catastrophys. There very well could be a hidden human elite that we are not and never have been aware of. booga booga Or maybe we have really gotten this stupid in so short a time. I suggest the giant exclusive seed banks built in the last couple of decades are worthy of consideration when thinking about that scenario. Hiding underground till the dust clears ain't new either. Nice and warm down there.

Oh yeah the OP, peaceful co existence with pricks and liars. Hows that work? I know it says to love thine enemy but pricks ain't going to reciprocate so the idea sounds like it may have been spawned by pricks in the first place.

petros

#23

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

The ultimate goal in physics is to find the "God particle". What if the uinvere is alive and we kill God? Give the poor guy an artificially induced stroke.

dumpthemonarchy

#24

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Religion is just dated nonsense. It doesn't do a thing to make the world a better place. It is parasitic to pay for big buildings that are very pricey to heat.

darkbeaver

#25

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Did I hear the word parasitic? Yes I did. It's very interesting that man is his own worst parasite, don't you think?

Cliffy

#26

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Some can't differentiate between spiritual and religious, two very different mind sets. Spirituality can easily coexist with science. It is the dogma of religion that is too rigid to accept that truth can coexist. That is not to say, of course, that some religious people are more flexible than others.

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

Did I hear the word parasitic? Yes I did. It's very interesting that man is his own worst parasite, don't you think?

Definitely the worst as far as the planet is concerned.

petros

#27

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Some can't differentiate between spiritual and religious, two very different mind sets. Spirituality can easily coexist with science. It is the dogma of religion that is too rigid to accept that truth can coexist. That is not to say, of course, that some religious people are more flexible than others.

Definitely the worst as far as the planet is concerned.

How can you be a spiritual ball of magnetic and electrical energy on the crap that is passed off as food?

Beaver is aware of the limited owned and patented genetic cultivars of food plants AND animals.

Hybrid plant genetics do not produce seeds that will reproduce. They don't go beyond F1.

Using landrace cultivars puts you at risk of creating a plant that will produce past F1 but the impossible to avoid likelihood of the pollen being from a patented cultivar means you owe them for infringement.

How long until human genes are owned and sold? After everyone is irradiated by one of many potential sources?

When you own the food and the genes to reproduce you own the entire human race.

kowalskil

#28

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Kowalskil, an interesting name. Welcome.

You make some interesting observations from what I have read from you so far.
Though here you make a mistake.
Coexistence and cooperation are not at all the same thing.
So while one is simply yes, the other is as simply no.

Or course two mutually loathing paradigms as science and religion can exist peacefully by virtue of ignoring each other. Though this seems highly unlikely as one is selling while the other isn't buying.

I do hope my injection of English slang doesn't confuse.

Peaceful cooperation on the other hand is impossible as religion at some point forces the issue of taking one's word on the subject while science is exactly not that. Demonstrate or remain nothing more than a belief.

The third aspect and probably the least interesting is the difference between scientist and theologians.

I would say it is dependant on the person though the properties of each vocation shouldn't stand in the way of the two getting along in finding common ground. But only if they can at some point agree to disagree and carry on with the rest of it.

Most people on the planet are neither scientists nor theologists. They are mostly "buyers of ideas." And who are sellers? Scientists and theologists. They all say that their goal is to serve people as well as possible.

Ludwik
.

Goober

#29

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

Most people on the planet are neither scientists nor theologists. They are mostly "buyers of ideas." And who are sellers? Scientists and theologists. They all say that their goal is to serve people as well as possible.

Ludwik
.

Cannot remember the name or the exact quote but it was from a physicist - he stated -paraphrasing here- Man is such a puny part of Gods Plan. I tend to agree.

JLM

#30

Re: Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

Jan 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by kowalskil

I would very much like to know what people on this website think about peaceful coexistence between those who study our material world (scientists) and those who study our spiritual world (theologians). My attempt to write an essay on that subject failed, as you can see at:

--

The webpage was prepared to generate a discussion. Those who post comments should refer to specific “contributions,” as numbered (or to specific persons, as numbered at the beginning). This will simplify the discussion.

And let us keep in mind that the main topic is peaceful coexistence. Is it possible? Is it desirable? What should we do promote it? etc.

Thank you in advance,

Ludwik Kowalski, author of “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.” Click the link below.

--
==========================================

To do otherwise would be kind of stupid, as neither side has all the answers. Lots of stuff happening in the world that can't be explained.

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