Spiritual Anarchy

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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This is something I wrote a few years ago in a regular column in a Nelson philosophical rag. Thought it might stimulate some discussion from the religious and non-religious. Allywayzalwayz was asking for a new topic that isn't being murdered in the News.

Like many baby boomers I saw the folly of the great American dream; the hard sell jingles of the post war consumer machine. I decided to leave it all to Beaver and strike out in search of my own vision. Down the road from childhood Catholicism to present day Spiritual Anarchist, it has been an interesting, frightening, joyous, painful and, sometimes, insane journey.
I realize now that all the years I spent reading, talking, participating in all the various schools of thought, spiritual paths, teachings and rituals had little to do with where I am within myself today. I tried everything from tofu and grass clippings to tying myself in yogic knots; from sweat lodges to Psychic healing; from Christianity to Native Spirituality. Some have kindled the divine spark, which dwells in each of us, enough to cause me to ponder their significance.
The only thing any of it taught me was to listen to my own guidance - the little voice within. Looking back, I cannot chart the course of my journey by my studies but more by the inspiration and guidance I received from life itself. It may be divine clown or demonic madman to some but to me it is an accepted part of my reality - even though there are still times I chose not to listen to the message. The path I follow may seem strange and dangerous to the timid but as Allen Watts said, “Belief is holding to a rock and faith is learning how to swim.” Life is a act of faith. All of our beliefs about life are just rocks. Life is not static or constant. It has its own agenda and will never fit into any mold which we may try to stuff it in.
A common belief is that the truth is universal. The truth is the truth, right? Well is it? The truth to a middle class suburban house wife is not likely to mean much to an aborigine living on grubs in the desert of Australia. Have you ever tried to get five people to agree on something - anything?
What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder. I have come to the conclusion that if a truth needs defending, then it is probably not true and the defender is usually on shaky ground. A person who knows their truth will not need to convince anybody of its validity. They will just quietly become their truth.
Nobody can show you the way. Each of our lives is unique and the truth of it is unique to each of us. Nobody else can know your truth, your reality or your purpose for being here. All the spiritual teachers have only been able to tell us how they got to their understanding of their own truth.
You can use some of their methods, if you desire, but in the end you will have to set out on your own hero’s journey, fight your own demons, risk your own life to discover your own truth.
I once read a book about astral projection in which the author discussed the silver cord some say connects the astral body to the physical one. He said, “If you see the cord, cut it”. Freedom comes from letting go of rocks, teachers, leaders and beliefs. Jesus is reported to have said, “The Kingdom of God is within”. You will never find it looking outside yourself.
I don’t claim to know or believe in anything. I do, however, have faith that life - my life, all life - is unfolding as it should; that each and every one of us on this journey is doing our part in the great cosmic drama which is unfolding every minute - with or without our co-operation. We may complain about our part, or try to manipulate circumstances to suit ouselves but in the end, Life will unfold as it will. So it makes more sense to learn how to flow with it than to be bowled over by it.
As has been said before, “Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans”. Or as Ram Das put it, “Life is a school. Take the curriculum”.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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. Allywayzalwayz was asking for a new topic that isn't being murdered in the News.

Thank you. :smile:

What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder.
I really wish there was an smiley character with his hand over his eyes, sighing.

Cliffy ol' pal, please read this thread, and if you still want to have this discussion, then return to this thread for some friendly debate(reference: question#1).

...

Q1) Is your above statement a relative truth?
 
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Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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alleywayzalwayz,

To me truth is subjective, not objective - it is subject to personal interpretation. I read that thread and you like to use a big stick in your "debates". Like many religious types that I have had discussions with, you assume that another's beliefs that you don't agree with are attacks on your personal beliefs. You think there are universal truths that are indisputable and when someone does not accept them as truth, you seem to feel a need to browbeat them into seeing your way. I don't call that debate, I call it a slug fest.

I take things as dynamic rather than static. I don't mind discussions because I can always learn something from another's perspective. I find religious debates never go anywhere and usually end in dead lock.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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the-brights.net
This is something I wrote a few years ago in a regular column in a Nelson philosophical rag. Thought it might stimulate some discussion from the religious and non-religious. Allywayzalwayz was asking for a new topic that isn't being murdered in the News.

Like many baby boomers I saw the folly of the great American dream; the hard sell jingles of the post war consumer machine. I decided to leave it all to Beaver and strike out in search of my own vision. Down the road from childhood Catholicism to present day Spiritual Anarchist, it has been an interesting, frightening, joyous, painful and, sometimes, insane journey.
I realize now that all the years I spent reading, talking, participating in all the various schools of thought, spiritual paths, teachings and rituals had little to do with where I am within myself today. I tried everything from tofu and grass clippings to tying myself in yogic knots; from sweat lodges to Psychic healing; from Christianity to Native Spirituality. Some have kindled the divine spark, which dwells in each of us, enough to cause me to ponder their significance.
The only thing any of it taught me was to listen to my own guidance - the little voice within. Looking back, I cannot chart the course of my journey by my studies but more by the inspiration and guidance I received from life itself. It may be divine clown or demonic madman to some but to me it is an accepted part of my reality - even though there are still times I chose not to listen to the message. The path I follow may seem strange and dangerous to the timid but as Allen Watts said, “Belief is holding to a rock and faith is learning how to swim.” Life is a act of faith. All of our beliefs about life are just rocks. Life is not static or constant. It has its own agenda and will never fit into any mold which we may try to stuff it in.
A common belief is that the truth is universal. The truth is the truth, right? Well is it? The truth to a middle class suburban house wife is not likely to mean much to an aborigine living on grubs in the desert of Australia. Have you ever tried to get five people to agree on something - anything?
What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder. I have come to the conclusion that if a truth needs defending, then it is probably not true and the defender is usually on shaky ground. A person who knows their truth will not need to convince anybody of its validity. They will just quietly become their truth.
Nobody can show you the way. Each of our lives is unique and the truth of it is unique to each of us. Nobody else can know your truth, your reality or your purpose for being here. All the spiritual teachers have only been able to tell us how they got to their understanding of their own truth.
You can use some of their methods, if you desire, but in the end you will have to set out on your own hero’s journey, fight your own demons, risk your own life to discover your own truth.
I once read a book about astral projection in which the author discussed the silver cord some say connects the astral body to the physical one. He said, “If you see the cord, cut it”. Freedom comes from letting go of rocks, teachers, leaders and beliefs. Jesus is reported to have said, “The Kingdom of God is within”. You will never find it looking outside yourself.
I don’t claim to know or believe in anything. I do, however, have faith that life - my life, all life - is unfolding as it should; that each and every one of us on this journey is doing our part in the great cosmic drama which is unfolding every minute - with or without our co-operation. We may complain about our part, or try to manipulate circumstances to suit ouselves but in the end, Life will unfold as it will. So it makes more sense to learn how to flow with it than to be bowled over by it.
As has been said before, “Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans”. Or as Ram Das put it, “Life is a school. Take the curriculum”.
But, that's only your truth, right?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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But, that's only your truth, right?

But of course. Isn't that what the blurb is about? If the truth is only relevant to the beholder, then I am free to agree with anybody because what they say is true to them. Why should I try to convince anybody that they are wrong and I am right if everybody is right (in their own mind)? If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who am I to say you are a wacko. Hell, I don't expect anybody to agree with my view. I just put it out there in the hopes that perhaps there is some common ground with someone who I can talk to in a civil manner.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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"A common belief is that the truth is universal. The truth is the truth, right? Well is it? The truth to a middle class suburban house wife is not likely to mean much to an aborigine living on grubs in the desert of Australia. Have you ever tried to get five people to agree on something - anything?
What I have discovered is that the truth is relative to the beholder. I have come to the conclusion that if a truth needs defending, then it is probably not true and the defender is usually on shaky ground. A person who knows their truth will not need to convince anybody of its validity. They will just quietly become their truth."

The truth is the truth. The reason it's difficult to get five people to agree on anything is because their perspectives and their understandings are different. That is why neither you nor I have ever been "wrong" in our particular approach to something. We have only lacked a full understanding.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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The truth is the truth. The reason it's difficult to get five people to agree on anything is because their perspectives and their understandings are different. That is why neither you nor I have ever been "wrong" in our particular approach to something. We have only lacked a full understanding.


We can never see the truth through the eyes of another, through their perspective. Their understanding is based on their life experiences, are coloured by them. I suppose that instead of the truth only being relative to the beholder, I could say their take on the truth is only relative to them, but it seems a little like splitting hairs.

Just take the belief in god. To some it is true and to others it is fantasy. You could no more convince me that your belief in god is based on truth or fact than I could convince you otherwise. Does this make either of us wrong? And who has full understanding of anything. I could not know what you understand any more than you could know what I understand or how we got that understanding.

But we could accept that the other came to their conclusions based on their life experiences. It would make for a lot less conflict - but then, if everybody got along it might be a rather dull existence, eh!
 

Outta here

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Jul 8, 2005
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I once heard a wonderfully liberating saying:

"My belief does not require me to convince you of its' truth".

Think about that. What onus is upon any one of us to convince any one else that what is true for one must be true for another?

Everything in life is relative, and in the context of this discussion, that includes truth. imo.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Cliffy that's as nice a defence of the individual as I'v seen, but for the sake of discussion I'll disagree entirely. Individuality is a powerfull illusion. At no time are we the individual except in false objectivity. Our lives are products of experiance of great duration and diversity, we will always be connected to our ancestors, there is no escape from them. Maybe the original sin was adopting the conciet to imagine ourselves apart from the whole even when we know deep down without doubt that we cannot exist as islands we struggle with that truth to no avail except perhaps some tiny personal agrandizment. The truth is that many of us are looking for comfort and not truth some corner where we can hide from the on rush of time and circumstance. In my humble opinion there is truth, solid and undivisable, it may be that the value of truth is in the journey toward truth for in all truth it does not require the human for it's actualization. For me there is no comfort great enough to abandone the journey, I can run but I cannot hide.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Cliffy that's as nice a defence of the individual as I'v seen, but for the sake of discussion I'll disagree entirely. Individuality is a powerfull illusion. At no time are we the individual except in false objectivity. Our lives are products of experiance of great duration and diversity, we will always be connected to our ancestors, there is no escape from them. Maybe the original sin was adopting the conciet to imagine ourselves apart from the whole even when we know deep down without doubt that we cannot exist as islands we struggle with that truth to no avail except perhaps some tiny personal agrandizment. The truth is that many of us are looking for comfort and not truth some corner where we can hide from the on rush of time and circumstance. In my humble opinion there is truth, solid and undivisable, it may be that the value of truth is in the journey toward truth for in all truth it does not require the human for it's actualization. For me there is no comfort great enough to abandone the journey, I can run but I cannot hide.

I see our consciousness as multi layered: 1) the individual bag of skin, 2) The immediate group, 3) your community, 4) Your country, 5) Your species. I suppose you could ad a few in between. What you are referring to is species or even mammalian consciousness. What I was talking about is you bag of skin. I agree with you but what you said is about the multiple layers.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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I once heard a wonderfully liberating saying:

"My belief does not require me to convince you of its' truth".

Think about that. What onus is upon any one of us to convince any one else that what is true for one must be true for another?

Everything in life is relative, and in the context of this discussion, that includes truth. imo.

To which I agree completely.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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I read that thread and you like to use a big stick in your "debates".

You think there are universal truths that are indisputable and when someone does not accept them as truth, you seem to feel a need to browbeat them into seeing your way. I don't call that debate, I call it a slug fest.

That particular debate is actually a funny, long story. SJP was really new here, we had a full discussion beforehand, and after he held his position for a really long time, I tried to pin him in the ring. It was all in good fun, don't worry, we're pals.

Like many religious types that I have had discussions with, you assume that another's beliefs that you don't agree with are attacks on your personal beliefs.
I'm not religious, and don't consider differing opinions an attack. I'm wrong often and willfully admit that in my posts.

I take things as dynamic rather than static. I don't mind discussions because I can always learn something from another's perspective. I find religious debates never go anywhere and usually end in dead lock.
I'm not looking for a debate on religion, what I want is a friendly debate on the topic: truth.

it is subject to personal interpretation.
No its not. Its interpreted, but that doesn't change the correct answer. If you interpret 2 + 2 to equal 5, does that make it the correct answer? Of course not! 2 + 2 equals 4!

Answer this please - Question 1 again:

truth is subjective, not objective
Is that a relative truth?
 
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Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Is that a relative truth?

It is the truth as I see it, or at least it was when I wrote it. To me it is dynamic, morphing as my experiences in life ad more to my understanding of reality.

BTW, I was watching a documentary on the ancient Polynesian navigators (I believe) and they could prove 2+2=5 mathematically. Now there is a relative truth.
 

china

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alleywayzalwayz,

To me truth is subjective, not objective - it is subject to personal interpretation. I read that thread and you like to use a big stick in your "debates". Like many religious types that I have had discussions with, you assume that another's beliefs that you don't agree with are attacks on your personal beliefs. You think there are universal truths that are indisputable and when someone does not accept them as truth, you seem to feel a need to browbeat them into seeing your way. I don't call that debate, I call it a slug fest.

I take things as dynamic rather than static. I don't mind discussions because I can always learn something from another's perspective. I find religious debates never go anywhere and usually end in dead lock.

Cliffy
To me truth is subjective, not objective - it is subject to personal interpretation.

Truth is what is ,truth is the actual ,truth is absolute my friend and the Truth is choice less .
 
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Cliffy

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Cliffy


Truth is what is ,truth is the actual ,truth is absolute my friend and the Truth is choice less .

What is is truth! There are no absolutes. Just look at science. There have been many scientific laws that have been replaced because they no longer hold true or are no longer relevant.

Our material reality is actually a computer construct based on a belief system that only takes a limited amount of data into consideration. I hold that to be true. I can scientifically prove it but few would accept that because they are afraid that if I am right, they might disappear, vaporize or otherwise cease to exist. But I am still here banging on this keyboard.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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What is is truth! There are no absolutes.

Here's the problem with your logic my friend: Statements are affirmations, and statements like 'truth is relative' tries to affirm that the ONLY ABSOLUTE TRUTH WE CAN TRUST *IS* -- THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTE TRUTHS!!!

It's wrong, its flawed, and it is SELF DEFEATING.

Its like saying to someone: "I don't speak a word of English."

See what I mean?

Don't tell me I' crazy! 8O... Cuz I know I'm not!...;-)...:cool:
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Posted this on another thread but it should have been here. basically, quantum physics and mechanics comes to the conclusion that our individuality and reality are myths. All we thought we know is a lie based on faulty data - our personal WMDs. Maybe when we get unstuck from this material construct we call reality, them possibly we come to know a truth that is absolute, but until then we know Jack!
The flick is worth watching. It's short.

Quoting Cannuck Dailymotion - The Reality As You Know It Does Not Exist, a video from DiscloseTV. Alan, Conciousness, DiscloseTV, Do, Russell

That is what I have said all along - reality/truth/life is subjective, that it is basically a computer construct based on a belief system - a Matrix. This is a dream, as the Buddhists say, but what a dream! We are nothing more than conscious energy communicating with what appears to be mechanical devices called computers when in reality, if we changed our belief system, we would not need these contraptions to communicate.

Life as we know it, only seems three dimensional, materialistic and solid. But like the man said, if you could squeeze the universe until all that was left was the actual matter, you would have a lump the size of a pea. 99 point 9(to the power of several trillion) percent of what we call reality is empty space. So what else can this thing we call reality be but a hologram based on the programming of our minds.

As a form of consciousness, humanity embarked on an experiment millions of years ago (in our illusion of time) to play with third dimensional reality but we forgot it was just a game we were playing and became stuck in this reality we created. We are now coming close to realizing it is just a game and will soon move on to a different experiment, one hopefully a little more sensible.