The Gender of a Soul

[karrie]

For the purpose of this discussion, I am going to suspend the debate on if souls exist, and assume that they do. Please do not enter this discussion to debate that side of things, thanks.


Assuming the existence of a soul, the debate regarding transgenderism being 'against God's plan' loses me based on the fact that I have never, in all my life, heard any argument that states that a soul has a gender. In all my time learning within the church, I have been told that a soul is born of God, and a body born of earth. But I have also been told that God is genderless. If God is genderless, why would we assume our notions of gender are anything more than the biological side of our existence, something which would disappear upon our exit from this existence? When it has been scientifically proven that gender identity is prone to natural mistakes, hormone fluctuations and errors, why would we think that it is 'concrete' in God's eyes?

I challenge anyone to show me that gender is a construct of the soul.

 

[Vereya]

Interesting, Karrie, I have never thought of the gender of the soul before. Actually, in Russian we have the grammar category of gender for all things, not only for human beings, and we have two words, denoting "soul". One is "dookh", and it's masculine, and the other is "doosha", and it's feminine. Both cam be used in the same context and have the same meaning. I have always thought of myself as of someone who has a "doosha" :smile: I think that your soul is the very essence of who you are, and what you are, it is it that makes you - you. And it includes sexual identification as well. A soul is our "summary", and since we have genders, they are also included. If your soul is not happy with your body, well, it means that something is seriously wrong. If I had to choose, I'd go after what the soul chooses.

 

[karrie]

See, I don't think my gender would be an important part of my identity once I move on. It may be part of the personality that I developed over time, but I don't think it will be as defining, since it so largely based on physicalities. If you're going where the physical can't, then why would we take those notions with us as anything more than personality traits?

 

[Vereya]

Humans are a harmonious whole. The soul and the body are blended together, and the work of each is influenced by the other. You can't separate them, and still have a human being. Unity is an important notion here. So your gender, and everything pertaining to it, surely does influence the functioning of your soul, as well as your soul influences the way you express yourself as a physical being of a particular gender. The two should always be in harmony. And if gender is not an important part of your identity, why be so unhappy about it as to change it? A gender is based both on physicalities and on things spiritual. Hence the difference between the male and female thinking. It goes deeper than just the body.

 

[eanassir]

For the purpose of this discussion, I am going to suspend the debate on if souls exist, and assume that they do. Please do not enter this discussion to debate that side of things, thanks.


Assuming the existence of a soul, the debate regarding transgenderism being 'against God's plan' loses me based on the fact that I have never, in all my life, heard any argument that states that a soul has a gender. In all my time learning within the church, I have been told that a soul is born of God, and a body born of earth. But I have also been told that God is genderless. If God is genderless, why would we assume our notions of gender are anything more than the biological side of our existence, something which would disappear upon our exit from this existence? When it has been scientifically proven that gender identity is prone to natural mistakes, hormone fluctuations and errors, why would we think that it is 'concrete' in God's eyes?

I challenge anyone to show me that gender is a construct of the soul.

How can there be no gender? Will the soul be like the child who is not aware of the sex? And the sex is only some superior thing leading to maturity and completion of the personality of each of the man and the woman (in the lawful way of course.)
Or will it be like the "hermaphrodite" who is neither male nor female? And who, whether a man or a woman, can accept this abnormal situation for himself or herself?​

The other point: it is a matter of admitting the uniqueness of God: Who has neither wife nor son or daughter; because He is Eternal, and Complete and has no need to any partner.​

Moreover, where in the Torah, the Gospel or the Quran that God said the soul has no gender?​

The thing that has made such confusion is this:​

There is a difference between the "spirit" and the "soul" : ​

http://man-after-death.site.io/#The_Soul_​

The spirit: is a general term; every material thing has a spirit: the tree has a spirit, the animal has a spirit, even other inanimate things like the wall, the door, the clothes, the furniture; all that has a spirit which is a true copy of the material structure, but it is ehtereal not material. ​

While the soul: is confined to human soul that is hearing, seeing and perceiving the pleasure and pain, and which is a true copy of the material body.​

It may be called a ‘spirit’ before it enters the body; because it is an amount of ethereal particles, but after it goes inside the body, those ethereal particles will arrange inside the body forming an ethereal frame that hears, sees, speaks and thinks; then it cannot be called a ‘spirit’; but it should be called a ‘soul’. ​

The soul has a frame like the frame of the body; for the soul is a true copy of the material body; because it forms inside the body, and takes its shape; so that if the body is long, then the soul will also be long; and if the body is short, then the soul will also be short; and as such its organs and special senses [organs] will be like the special senses [organs] of the body. ​

Hence, if the mouth of the body is large, then the ‘spiritual mouth’ of the soul will also be large; and if the eye of the body is small, the eye of the soul will be small, too. ​

Then when the soul will separate from the body, by death, it will remain as it is, according to its shape and size: neither will it become bigger nor smaller; so that the child remains as a child forever, and will never get older; and a young man will remain a young one, and will never become older.​

The soul of a man is a true copy of his body, and he will be a man (and will be uncircumcized unless he had been circumcized on his eighth day or so),
and the soul of a woman is a true copy of her body, and will be a woman (and will be virgin even if she had been married in the World); ​

but they will be ethereal and immortal that will not die forever; because they will have already died and their souls separated from their bodies: the bodies disintegrated and the souls remained.​

See more details at our website:
http://man-after-death.site.io​

eanassir​

 

[quandary121]

As far as i am aware the soul has no gender to speak of, as bible reference points to when Jesus answer to the sadducees and the pharisees, when asked about death and what happens to it after death, they gave him a parable about a woman who's husband died, and then she marry's again her second husband dies, and so on and so forth for about 7 husbands ,they asked when she eventually dies whom would she be married to in heaven, as they had all been with her Jesus said to them "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. " so according to Jesus they become as Angels which are neither male or female

Matthew 22;23-30

23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27And last of all the woman died also.
28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[L Gilbert]

Didn't Wolfie say in a thread somewhere something along the lines of no food or sex in heaven? lol This would mean that if there is such a thing as heaven and such things as souls, there are no genders there either.
hehehe I personally find the idea of a place where the lion lays with the lamb a bit boring and therefore repulsive. I'll pass on that busride and take the cab somewhere I wanna go. lol

 

[quandary121]

Didn't Wolfie say in a thread somewhere something along the lines of no food or sex in heaven? lol This would mean that if there is such a thing as heaven and such things as souls, there are no genders there either.
hehehe I personally find the idea of a place where the lion lays with the lamb a bit boring and therefore repulsive. I'll pass on that busride and take the cab somewhere I wanna go. lol

well Wolfie is wrong about the food thing for one, apparently there are the trees that have fruit on them all year around, which is a strange thing to say as where do they calculate a year from. ? But that's besides the point there are trees with fruit, Eg: food. And with fruit you can make beer maybe there's just no hangovers in heaven lol

 

[L Gilbert]

lol I spose. Altrhough that makes me wonder how many heavens there are. Lotta people seem to have differing views on what the place is. IE- isn't the Islamic heaven full of virgins? That begs the question if it is full of them, do they stay virgins or are they like real versions here on the planet?

 

[karrie]

lol I spose. Altrhough that makes me wonder how many heavens there are. Lotta people seem to have differing views on what the place is. IE- isn't the Islamic heaven full of virgins? That begs the question if it is full of them, do they stay virgins or are they like real versions here on the planet?

Perhaps it's that once you get there and gender has been erased, EVERYone's a 'virgin'.

 

[quandary121]

lol I spose. Altrhough that makes me wonder how many heavens there are. Lotta people seem to have differing views on what the place is. IE- isn't the Islamic heaven full of virgins? That begs the question if it is full of them, do they stay virgins or are they like real versions here on the planet?

well ive been told there are seven heavens in the Islamic faith and depending how well you have been on earth depends which one you end up in also in the Islamic faith there is such thing a gender when you die as descriptions of hell are supposed to be filled with the unholy men and women of the earth.?being whipped and undergoing tortures of said place.!

 

[AmberEyes]

I remember reading a book once where there were these creatures that were, essentially, ethereal souls. They were neither male nor female - but they could, however, take on the identities of "masculine" and "feminine" depending on what role they played. Gender isn't necessarily just a physical thing, is it? Can it not be how we identify ourselves, how we act and feel?

 

[lone wolf]

If Heaven is equality, that sort of rules out gender. Heaven' s also an abstract concept so there IS no right or wrong....

 

[L Gilbert]

I certainly think so, Amber.

 

[talloola]

According to my daughter's belief system, souls live many many lives, and leave the body
when the body dies, and then exists out in the solar system somewhere, (she could explain that, I can't), and when the right body is born for that soul, it will enter and live
another life, and on it goes, and she explains that the soul becomes more mature and
experienced with every life it leads, and can pick and choose the body it wishes to enter.

I will ask her if she believes there is a gender for every soul.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Well, granting for the sake of argument that there is such a thing as a soul--which I don't, really, but out of respect for karrie's wishes I'll let that slide here--it seems to me that souls cannot be gendered. Gender seems to me to be mostly a matter of biochemistry and cultural conditioning, and I would assume the absence of a physical body would render those influences impotent. I have known people, in fact I'm closely related to some of them, who have the overt physical characteristics of maleness or femaleness--breasts or penises, for instance--but in their behaviour seem peculiarly genderless. It also seems clear to me that there are more than two genders. There are people--not many, but some--who have both breasts and penises, for instance. And there are people who appear to be physically a particular gender but are attracted to the same gender rather than the opposite one, which I really can't see any value to in evolutionary terms; those people won't pass their genes on. And there are people who are attracted to both... I also think we have to distinguish between gender and sexuality, though it's far from clear to me how to do it. Frankly, thanks to some consciousness-raising from my daughter (actually I'm not really sure if I'm thankful or not) I'm no longer sure I even know what gender and sexuality mean, all I'm sure of is my own gender and sexuality: I'm very definitely male, and masculine, and heterosexual. But some things still seem clear to me. Without a physical body and its hormone-driven needs and desires, how can there be any expression of sexuality? Masculinity and femininity are usually understood in terms of certain behaviours, some of which may be biochemically determined and some may be culturally conditioned, but I really have no idea where to draw that line.

A soul, depending of course on what one understands it to be, ought to be beyond all that stuff.

 

[Scott Free]

OK, for this thread only, there is a soul and does it have a gender?

I would say not. The physical reality we experience is actually a reflection of a greater reality that is veiled from us. That reality can not be encompassed by this one because it is limited. The limitations created by this reality are so we can have free will. The realities reflected here then are only partial. To be completely revealed they need to be spread out over time and otherwise broken up. We have male and female sexes because this separation is the only way our reality can be manifested (since god is the only true creator). In this way we can find completeness from the opposite sex and be complete in a soul mate. Certain insects and homosexuals are an exemption, naturally, because god doesn't like them (see the Bible and Koran). In this way all of creation has a longing to be united with its true self. This yearning is what we call love.

Thus when we die we are united with ourselves and become truly complete. We enter heaven where we can finally be free of these limitations. The soul, therefore, losses its sexuality because heaven is not the realm of creation. Creating life is the domain of god and in heaven the soul is free from all the immoral horrors that entails (see the Bible and Koran). So the only way we can be perfect is if we have no sexuality, thus, the soul has no sex.

Homosexuality and asexuality is caused by gods secret fetish for himself. He despises this in himself and so will smite anyone who speaks of it. God is so high and mighty that like the nobles of old he is the only one good enough for him to fu... aargh.... ugh.... snurgle *thud*


POST CLOSED - GOD

 

[eanassir]

As far as i am aware the soul has no gender to speak of, as bible reference points to when Jesus answer to the sadducees and the pharisees, when asked about death and what happens to it after death, they gave him a parable about a woman who's husband died, and then she marry's again her second husband dies, and so on and so forth for about 7 husbands ,they asked when she eventually dies whom would she be married to in heaven, as they had all been with her Jesus said to them "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. " so according to Jesus they become as Angels which are neither male or female

Matthew 22;23-30

There had been a large number of traditions attributed to Prophet Mohammed, the while he did not say such words.
The same is true concerning Jesus and other prophets of God: many words had been attributed to them when they in fact did not say such words.​

Moreover, it might happen that a prophet said some words, then – by the way of the translation – his words would be distorted and would not give the meaning that aimed at.​

E.g. The circumcision: Jews are very strict to this act; they had been instructed to circumcise the baby when he is 8 days old, and if not he will perish.
When Jesus came he started to purify the hearts, not the routine external act; so he said to them some words concerning the circumcision that Christians misunderstood; because of the translation:
"The circumcision is that of the heart"
Now, the "circumcision" means a circular incision to cut off the foreskin of the male baby, then how can there be a circular incision for the heart? This confusion occurred because of the translation:
The Israelites are from Iraq in origin; because their father Prophet Abraham was an Iraqi from Ur. Then he migrated to the land of Canaan Jordan.) ​

Abraham ​

↓​

Ismael ── Isaac​

↓ ── ↓​

sons of Ismael ── Jacob (Israel)​

↓ ──── ↓
Mohammed (and his tribe) ── Children of Israel​

The original language of Prophet Abraham was the language of his people: the ancient Iraqis, when the Children of Israel returned from the captivity of Babylon, their language was altered; they spoke the Aramaic language. Jesus spoke to them in this language.
In Iraq, and till now, the word circumcision is called طهور which means "the purification", and Jews at that time called the circumcision this word which means the "purification"; so he said to them: The طهور or "the purification" is not the circular incision that you do; it is essentially "the purification" of the heart.
While if you say: the circumcision of the heart; it appears ridiculous.
This is an example of how the translation distorts the meaning, and robs the exact implication of the word. ​

When man and woman dies, in case the woman is a righteous one and her husband did not pass the examination and Judgment, she will not be his wife in the next world, but she will go to Paradise and given in marriage ( by God) to a righteous man in Paradise.​

The same is true about the man if he is righteous and his wife is an associater, she will go to Hell and he will go to Paradise to have his wives of the Houri ( the righteous women of this World, and the daughters of the disbelievers)​

But if he is righteous and his wife and progeny are righteous and monotheists who do not associate anyone and anything with God, then his wife and progeny will go together with him in Paradise and have the everlasting happiness in addition to the good pleasure of God.​

This is in the Quran 13: 23​

جَنَّاتُ عَدْنٍ يَدْخُلُونَهَا وَمَنْ صَلَحَ مِنْ آبَائِهِمْ وَأَزْوَاجِهِمْ وَذُرِّيَّاتِهِمْ ...إلخ​

The explanation: (Seven gardens into which they enter together with those – who are righteous – of their fathers, wives and seed …etc.) ​

And God – be glorified – said in the Quran 44: 54​

كَذَلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ​

The explanation: (As such, and We [shall] wed them [in Paradise] to wide-eyed whitish women [the houri].)
Paradise (or the Garden)
Description of the Gardens (or the Paradises)
Trees of Paradise
An imaginary drawing of an ethereal date-palm​

eanassir
http://man-after-death.site.io​

 

[karrie]

.... she will go to Paradise and given in marriage ( by God) to a righteous man in Paradise.....

....the man if he is righteous .... will go to Paradise to have his wives of the Houri...

​

Boy is language ever telling of someone's views on gender equality. Even in heaven, a place meant to be near perfect, women are 'given', while men get to 'have'. How sad is that?

 

[eanassir]

Boy is language ever telling of someone's views on gender equality. Even in heaven, a place meant to be near perfect, women are 'given', while men get to 'have'. How sad is that?

Avert from me the boxing of your angry cat!

In the recompense of the righteous work, there is equality in gender.
This is in the Quran 3: 195
فَاسْتَجَابَ لَهُمْ رَبُّهُمْ أَنِّي لاَ أُضِيعُ عَمَلَ عَامِلٍ مِّنكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ أَوْ أُنثَى بَعْضُكُم مِّن بَعْضٍ ...الخ

The explanation: (Then their Lord heard their [supplication, and said:] "I do never waste the work of any worker among you [but I will double the worker's reward], be he male or female [: no discrimination between the male and the female concerning the reward of the work]: some of you [proceed] from others [: the male proceeds from the female, and all of you proceeded from Adam.] …etc.)

This is only a matter of my language expression: but the more truthful is: Both of them [: the monotheists righteous male and female] are given in marriage to each other according to God's good pleasure and command. While the disbelievers and the believers will be separated; each one goes to his destination.

This is in the Quran 6: 70​

وَذَكِّرْ بِهِ أَن تُبْسَلَ نَفْسٌ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ لَيْسَ لَهَا مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلِيٌّ وَلاَ شَفِيعٌ وَإِن تَعْدِلْ كُلَّ عَدْلٍ لاَّ يُؤْخَذْ مِنْهَا أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ أُبْسِلُواْ بِمَا كَسَبُواْ لَهُمْ شَرَابٌ مِّنْ حَمِيمٍ وَعَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَكْفُرُونَ​

The explanation: (but admonish [others] with the [Quran] lest a soul should be separated [from other souls] because of [the sins] that it earned, [when they will] have – besides God – no master nor any intercessor; though it gives any ransom equal [to its sins] it will not be taken from it. Such are they that are separated [from other souls] because of [the sins] that they earned. They will have [in Hell] a drink of boiling water and a painful chastisement because of their unbelief.)

This is the meaning of the parable of Jesus Christ in the Gospel according to Matthew 13: 24-30
"30 - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

eanassir
http://man-after-death.site.io​