Unitarian Universalism

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
Could this be the example of a good religion?



Its history against slavery and its promotion of civil rights proves that the answer is a resounding YES!
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
It sounds more like a club than a religion to me but what the hell... since 18% of its members consider themselves atheists, 33% are agnostic and 54% humanists, I wish more religions were this sensible.
 
Last edited:

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
It sounds more like a club than a religion to me but what the hell... since 18% of its members consider themselves atheists, 33% are agnostic and 54% humanists, I wish more religions were this sensible.

So how do we draw the line between ''a club'' or ''an organization'' and a religion. Is it the dogmatism?

Here are the basic principles to which all members should agree upon...

-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

and here is the simplified version for kids...

ONE -- Each person is important
TWO -- Be kind in all you do
THREE -- We're free to learn together
FOUR -- And search for what is true
FIVE -- All people need a vote
SIX -- Build a fair and peaceful world
SEVEN -- We care for Earth's lifeboat

Is this dogma?
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
I think it is quite dogmatic as a matter of fact but since it has principles that we in the west generally just accept on face value anyway, it is a generally acceptable dogma - for us.

I could see some other cultures very much objecting to some of their tenants and insisting they are unproven; which I think is an accurate assessment.

I don't think the general population in the west really understand how much of our own belief systems are unproven, unsupported or just downright ridiculous.

This is what I meant by it sounds like a club to me, in that it does, since these are generally speaking very acceptable principles to North Americans IMO.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Scottfree, you are too loose and mushy with your definitions.

I can understand your explanations and rationale, but you run into the danger of stripping any meaning or boundary to a word's meaning. Double talk is often the result.

:)
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Scottfree, you are too loose and mushy with your definitions.

I can understand your explanations and rationale, but you run into the danger of stripping any meaning or boundary to a word's meaning. Double talk is often the result.

:)

Hmmmm, well perhaps or perhaps you are reading my posts too quickly. I generally mean precisely what I write.

I often find myself having to post twice because someone missed the point of what I wrote. Your response here seems like precisely that kind of post that has missed the point.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Because it's new it's better?

Because it hasn't had time to form solid views and commit the atrocities that almost always come along with organized groups of people?

Is it still made up of people? Because if it is, it's not a far cry from any other religion on the face of this earth in their idyllic beginnings. Look at the teachings of Christ, and the people who embraced them in the beginning. Then look at how far people have wandered away from them, and to what degree they've twisted them.

Religion is religion is religion. And trust me, the instant someone in that parish says it's a 'better' religion, they've started their walk down the road to seeing it twisted.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
So how do we draw the line between ''a club'' or ''an organization'' and a religion. Is it the dogmatism?

Here are the basic principles to which all members should agree upon...

-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

and here is the simplified version for kids...

ONE -- Each person is important
TWO -- Be kind in all you do
THREE -- We're free to learn together
FOUR -- And search for what is true
FIVE -- All people need a vote
SIX -- Build a fair and peaceful world
SEVEN -- We care for Earth's lifeboat

Is this dogma?

it sounds almost exactly like the original teachings of Christ. So yes, I would make the leap to saying it's more than a club.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
I'll reserve my opinion until I find out if they think any current 'ways of doing things' should be torn down and can come up with a way to implement those changes while adhering to the 7 rights listed.
All elected officials and corporate big-wigs should have to swear an oath to those rights under penalty of death for themselves and all their relatives. One blows it they all go, that should take care of the overpopulation topic in another thread and it should take about 1 month. Suicide via self-impalement on a sharp fencepost.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Better a club than a cult --- at least nobody has been harmed by adhering to its ideas. Quite the contrary, society has benefited by them.
That is probably the best route to be as successful as we (as humans that are prone to not getting anything right on the first, or even 2nd attempt) can be. Since not all the thing we do as a 'group' these days is a benign way of doing it, there still has to be some 'gentile way' to implement the changes that are needed. For instance how can the poor be lifted out of poverty? A kind word does nothing for an empty stomach.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
Because it's new it's better?

No. Being new doesn't make anything new or better.

Because it hasn't had time to form solid views and commit the atrocities that almost always come along with organized groups of people?

Atrocities almost always come with organized group of people??? Are you an anarchist? Are you sure you said what you wanted to say?

Is it still made up of people? Because if it is, it's not a far cry from any other religion on the face of this earth in their idyllic beginnings. Look at the teachings of Christ, and the people who embraced them in the beginning. Then look at how far people have wandered away from them, and to what degree they've twisted them. Religion is religion is religion. And trust me, the instant someone in that parish says it's a 'better' religion, they've started their walk down the road to seeing it twisted.

So if my religion speaks of love and compassion while yours speaks of hate and greed I'm not allowed to say my religion is better than yours? All is relative and nothing is any better than anything else?
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
No. Being new doesn't make anything new or better.



Atrocities almost always come with organized group of people??? Are you an anarchist? Are you sure you said what you wanted to say?



So if my religion speaks of love and compassion while yours speaks of hate and greed I'm not allowed to say my religion is better than yours? All is relative and nothing is any better than anything else?

s_lone, show me one case where an individual, rather than a group of people organized under one common belief system, committed a large scale genocide, started a war, or enslaved people. It tends to be that tribalism, be it centered around race religion or nationality, emboldens people to push their world view upon others. I'm not an anarchist, but, I'm not naive either.

And yes, I meant what I said. If your church speaks of love and compassion and you spend your time judging and pointing fingers at the 'church of hate and greed', rather than simply living the credo of your 'church of love and compassion' then you're falling into the trap that many religions have fallen into over the centuries.

It's always amazed me how far the message and the practice can end up separated from one another. I attend the Catholic church, and this is an issue I spend a lot of time discussing. The message we've been given, versus the way we choose to try to spread it. Christian churches have been given a beautiful message, a wonderful core set of values, but they've spent so much time fighting over the small print and judging one another over the dogmatic details, that you're hard pressed to find the core teaching of Christ while he was upon this earth, amongst all the backbiting and finger pointing.

Look at almost any other old religion (Buddhism is one of the few that stands apart), and what do you find? You find the exact same problems. Different sects, angry and upset with one another, because 'yer doing it wrong!'

Now don't get me wrong... trying to create a new religion without the flaws of the old is a noble and grand idea. But, it's still made up of people. And as such, isn't much different from any other church in the world. Because the problems in most churches aren't with the core set of values. They're with the interpretations and implementations by the people within them.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Has anyone here taken the time or made the effort to read Humanist Manifesto II?


Hello........................


Helloooooooooooooooooooo................

Tap tap tap.......

Is this thing on?
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
I've just skimmed it, so far I've got that it seems to want to take the best from multiple religions and ditch the not so good parts. I would prefer to leave them all in tack but see the differences explored in discussion rather than which one can have the most members or control the most land or acquire the most wealth, etc.

There is a system of control that is against all people, all religions, all nationalities. Many people would say this article is about one particular group and it is, but it is not about any one certain group. For instance Science can bring good things or bad things, this is about the ones who would use the bad things science can come up with. Money can be used in a similar way, it can be used to finance things that benefit people in general or, when used in a bad way, benefit just a few at the expense of many.

THE SECRET COVENANT

An illusion it will be, so large, so vast it will escape their
perception.

Those who will see it will be thought of as insane.

We will create separate fronts to prevent them from seeing the
connection between us.

We will behave as if we are not connected to keep the illusion alive.

Our goal will be accomplished one drop at a time so as to never bring
suspicion upon ourselves. This will also prevent them from seeing the
changes as they occur.

We will always stand above the relative field of their experience for
we know the secrets of the absolute.

We will work together always and will remain bound by blood and
secrecy.

Death will come to he who speaks.

We will keep their lifespan short and their minds weak while
pretending to do the opposite.

We will use our knowledge of science and technology in subtle ways so
they will never see what is happening.

We will use soft metals, aging accelerators and sedatives in food and
water, also in the air.

They will be blanketed by poisons everywhere they turn.

The soft metals will cause them to lose their minds.

We will promise to find a cure from our many fronts, yet we will feed
them more poison.

The poisons will be absorbed trough their skin and mouths, they will
destroy their minds and reproductive systems.

From all this, their children will be born dead, and we will conceal
this information.

The poisons will be hidden in everything that surrounds them, in what
they drink, eat, breathe and wear.

We must be ingenious in dispensing the poisons for they can see far.

We will teach them that the poisons are good, with fun images and
musical tones.

Those they look up to will help. We will enlist them to push our
poisons.

They will see our products being used in film and will grow accustomed
to them and will never know their true effect.

When they give birth we will inject poisons into the blood of their
children and convince them its for their help.

We will start early on, when their minds are young, we will target
their children with what children love most, sweet things.

When their teeth decay we will fill them with metals that will kill
their mind and steal their future.

When their ability to learn has been affected, we will create medicine
that will make them sicker and cause other diseases for which we will create
yet more medicine.

We will render them docile and weak before us by our power.

They will grow depressed, slow and obese, and when they come to us for
help, we will give them more poison.

We will focus their attention toward money and material goods so they
many never connect with their inner self.

We will distract them with fornication, external pleasures and games
so they may never be one with the oneness of it all.

Their minds will belong to us and they will do as we say.

If they refuse we shall find ways to implement mind-altering
technology into their lives.

We will use fear as our weapon.

We will establish their governments and establish opposites within.

We will own both sides.

We will always hide our objective but carry out our plan.

They will perform the labor for us and we shall prosper from their
toil.

Our families will never mix with theirs.

Our blood must be pure always, for it is the way.

We will make them kill each other when it suits us.

We will keep them separated from the oneness by dogma and religion.

We will control all aspects of their lives and tell them what to think
and how.

We will guide them kindly and gently letting them think they are
guiding themselves.

We will foment animosity between them through our factions.

When a light shall shine among them, we shall extinguish it by
ridicule, or death, whichever suits us best.

We will make them rip each other's hearts apart and kill their own
children.

We will accomplish this by using hate as our ally, anger as our
friend.

The hate will blind them totally, and never shall they see that from
their conflicts we emerge as their rulers.

They will be busy killing each other.

They will bathe in their own blood and kill their neighbors for as
long as we see fit.

We will benefit greatly from this, for they will not see us, for they
cannot see us.

We will continue to prosper from their wars and their deaths.

We shall repeat this over and over until our ultimate goal is
accomplished.

We will continue to make them live in fear and anger though images and
sounds.

We will use all the tools we have to accomplish this.

The tools will be provided by their labor.

We will make them hate themselves and their neighbors.

We will always hide the divine truth from them, that we are all one.

This they must never know!

They must never know that color is an illusion, they must always think
they are not equal.

Drop by drop, drop by drop we will advance our goal.

We will take over their land, resources and wealth to exercise total
control over them.

We will deceive them into accepting laws that will steal the little
freedom they will have.

We will establish a money system that will imprison them forever,
keeping them and their children in debt.

When they shall ban together, we shall accuse them of crimes and
present a
different story to the world for we shall own all the media.

We will use our media to control the flow of information and their
sentiment in our favor.

When they shall rise up against us we will crush them like insects,
for they are less than that.

They will be helpless to do anything for they will have no weapons.

We will recruit some of their own to carry out our plans, we will
promise them
eternal life, but eternal life they will never have for they are not
of us.

The recruits will be called "initiates" and will be indoctrinated to
believe false rites of passage to higher realms.

Members of these groups will think they are one with us never knowing
the truth.

They must never learn this truth for they will turn against us.

For their work they will be rewarded with earthly things and great
titles, but never will they become immortal and join us, never will they
receive the light and travel the stars.

They will never reach the higher realms, for the killing of their own
kind
will prevent passage to the realm of enlightenment.

This they will never know.

The truth will be hidden in their face, so close they will not be able
to focus on it until its too late.

Oh yes, so grand the illusion of freedom will be, that they will never
know they
are our slaves.

When all is in place, the reality we will have created for them will
own them.

This reality will be their prison. They will live in self-delusion.

When our goal is accomplished a new era of domination will begin.

Their minds will be bound by their beliefs, the beliefs we have
established
from time immemorial.

But if they ever find out they are our equal, we shall perish then.

THIS THEY MUST NEVER KNOW.

If they ever find out that together they can vanquish us, they will
take action.

They must never, ever find out what we have done, for if they do, we
shall have no place to run, for it will be easy to see who we are once the
veil has fallen.

Our actions will have revealed who we are and they will hunt us down
and no person shall give us shelter.

This is the secret covenant by which we shall live the rest of our
present and future lives, for this reality will transcend many generations
and life spans.

This covenant is sealed by blood, our blood. We, the ones who from
heaven to earth came.

This covenant must NEVER, EVER be known to exist.

It must NEVER, EVER be written or spoken of for if it is, the
consciousness it will spawn will release the fury of the PRIME CREATOR upon
us and we shall be cast to the depths from whence we came and remain there
until the end time of infinity itself.

I wonder where I can get a pair of glasses like this guy has (part1of13)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfM-a6RNZFo&feature=related
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
s_lone, show me one case where an individual, rather than a group of people organized under one common belief system, committed a large scale genocide, started a war, or enslaved people. It tends to be that tribalism, be it centered around race religion or nationality, emboldens people to push their world view upon others. I'm not an anarchist, but, I'm not naive either.

And yes, I meant what I said. If your church speaks of love and compassion and you spend your time judging and pointing fingers at the 'church of hate and greed', rather than simply living the credo of your 'church of love and compassion' then you're falling into the trap that many religions have fallen into over the centuries.

It's always amazed me how far the message and the practice can end up separated from one another. I attend the Catholic church, and this is an issue I spend a lot of time discussing. The message we've been given, versus the way we choose to try to spread it. Christian churches have been given a beautiful message, a wonderful core set of values, but they've spent so much time fighting over the small print and judging one another over the dogmatic details, that you're hard pressed to find the core teaching of Christ while he was upon this earth, amongst all the backbiting and finger pointing.

Look at almost any other old religion (Buddhism is one of the few that stands apart), and what do you find? You find the exact same problems. Different sects, angry and upset with one another, because 'yer doing it wrong!'

Now don't get me wrong... trying to create a new religion without the flaws of the old is a noble and grand idea. But, it's still made up of people. And as such, isn't much different from any other church in the world. Because the problems in most churches aren't with the core set of values. They're with the interpretations and implementations by the people within them.

I really agree with you on most of what you say. I was raised a catholic and while I wandered very far away from catholic dogma, I'm still very close to the Christian values of love and compassion that were transmitted to me. I appreciate my Christian heritage in terms of humanist values... But I don't give a **** about the trivial dogmatic nonsense such as ''women shouldn't be priests because Jesus was a man'' type of thing... Or ''your soul won't be saved because you don't go to mass every sunday to recieve the body of Christ''

Yes, the finger pointing and the judgemental side of most religions piss me off. It's depressing to see the religions divide themselves further because of trivial dogmatic details that usually have nothing to do with the core meaning and set of values the religions are supposed to transmit.

What I don't agree upon is the pessimist conclusion you seem to have that any group of people organized under a particular cause or set of beliefs is doomed to become a victim of tribalism. If that is the case, we might as well stop right now trying to build a peaceful and just society for everyone.