Super Genius
Posts: 1,116 
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
May 6th, 2008, 09:45 PM
Just learned about the existence of the Unitarian Universalist religion. This ''religion'' is about ''a free and responsible search for truth and meaning''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
Could this be the example of a good religion?
(I'm asking this question to those who believe humanity should do without religion)
Just learned about the existence of the Unitarian Universalist religion. This ''religion'' is about ''a free and responsible search for truth and meaning''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
Could this be the example of a good religion?
(I'm asking this question to those who believe humanity should do without religion)
Super Genius
Posts: 1,116
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
May 7th, 2008, 08:51 AM
Here are the basic principles to which all members should agree upon...
-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
and here is the simplified version for kids...
ONE -- Each person is important
TWO -- Be kind in all you do
THREE -- We're free to learn together
FOUR -- And search for what is true
FIVE -- All people need a vote
SIX -- Build a fair and peaceful world
SEVEN -- We care for Earth's lifeboat
Is this dogma?
Quoting Scott Free
So how do we draw the line between ''a club'' or ''an organization'' and a religion. Is it the dogmatism?
It sounds more like a club than a religion to me but what the hell... since 18% of its members consider themselves atheists, 33% are agnostic and 54% humanists, I wish more religions were this sensible.
Here are the basic principles to which all members should agree upon...
-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
and here is the simplified version for kids...
ONE -- Each person is important
TWO -- Be kind in all you do
THREE -- We're free to learn together
FOUR -- And search for what is true
FIVE -- All people need a vote
SIX -- Build a fair and peaceful world
SEVEN -- We care for Earth's lifeboat
Is this dogma?
Clever Clogs
Posts: 666
Location: BC
Location: BC
May 7th, 2008, 09:15 AM
I think it is quite dogmatic as a matter of fact but since it has principles that we in the west generally just accept on face value anyway, it is a generally acceptable dogma - for us.
I could see some other cultures very much objecting to some of their tenants and insisting they are unproven; which I think is an accurate assessment.
I don't think the general population in the west really understand how much of our own belief systems are unproven, unsupported or just downright ridiculous.
This is what I meant by it sounds like a club to me, in that it does, since these are generally speaking very acceptable principles to North Americans IMO.
I think it is quite dogmatic as a matter of fact but since it has principles that we in the west generally just accept on face value anyway, it is a generally acceptable dogma - for us.
I could see some other cultures very much objecting to some of their tenants and insisting they are unproven; which I think is an accurate assessment.
I don't think the general population in the west really understand how much of our own belief systems are unproven, unsupported or just downright ridiculous.
This is what I meant by it sounds like a club to me, in that it does, since these are generally speaking very acceptable principles to North Americans IMO.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,742
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
May 7th, 2008, 10:05 AM
Scottfree, you are too loose and mushy with your definitions.
I can understand your explanations and rationale, but you run into the danger of stripping any meaning or boundary to a word's meaning. Double talk is often the result.
Scottfree, you are too loose and mushy with your definitions.
I can understand your explanations and rationale, but you run into the danger of stripping any meaning or boundary to a word's meaning. Double talk is often the result.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 666
Location: BC
Location: BC
May 7th, 2008, 10:45 AM
I often find myself having to post twice because someone missed the point of what I wrote. Your response here seems like precisely that kind of post that has missed the point.
Quoting jimmoyer
Hmmmm, well perhaps or perhaps you are reading my posts too quickly. I generally mean precisely what I write.
Scottfree, you are too loose and mushy with your definitions.
I can understand your explanations and rationale, but you run into the danger of stripping any meaning or boundary to a word's meaning. Double talk is often the result.
I can understand your explanations and rationale, but you run into the danger of stripping any meaning or boundary to a word's meaning. Double talk is often the result.
I often find myself having to post twice because someone missed the point of what I wrote. Your response here seems like precisely that kind of post that has missed the point.
May 7th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Because it's new it's better?
Because it hasn't had time to form solid views and commit the atrocities that almost always come along with organized groups of people?
Is it still made up of people? Because if it is, it's not a far cry from any other religion on the face of this earth in their idyllic beginnings. Look at the teachings of Christ, and the people who embraced them in the beginning. Then look at how far people have wandered away from them, and to what degree they've twisted them.
Religion is religion is religion. And trust me, the instant someone in that parish says it's a 'better' religion, they've started their walk down the road to seeing it twisted.
Because it's new it's better?
Because it hasn't had time to form solid views and commit the atrocities that almost always come along with organized groups of people?
Is it still made up of people? Because if it is, it's not a far cry from any other religion on the face of this earth in their idyllic beginnings. Look at the teachings of Christ, and the people who embraced them in the beginning. Then look at how far people have wandered away from them, and to what degree they've twisted them.
Religion is religion is religion. And trust me, the instant someone in that parish says it's a 'better' religion, they've started their walk down the road to seeing it twisted.
May 7th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Quoting s_lone
it sounds almost exactly like the original teachings of Christ. So yes, I would make the leap to saying it's more than a club.
So how do we draw the line between ''a club'' or ''an organization'' and a religion. Is it the dogmatism?
Here are the basic principles to which all members should agree upon...
-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
and here is the simplified version for kids...
ONE -- Each person is important
TWO -- Be kind in all you do
THREE -- We're free to learn together
FOUR -- And search for what is true
FIVE -- All people need a vote
SIX -- Build a fair and peaceful world
SEVEN -- We care for Earth's lifeboat
Is this dogma?
Here are the basic principles to which all members should agree upon...
-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
and here is the simplified version for kids...
ONE -- Each person is important
TWO -- Be kind in all you do
THREE -- We're free to learn together
FOUR -- And search for what is true
FIVE -- All people need a vote
SIX -- Build a fair and peaceful world
SEVEN -- We care for Earth's lifeboat
Is this dogma?
Genius
Posts: 785
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
May 7th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I'll reserve my opinion until I find out if they think any current 'ways of doing things' should be torn down and can come up with a way to implement those changes while adhering to the 7 rights listed.
All elected officials and corporate big-wigs should have to swear an oath to those rights under penalty of death for themselves and all their relatives. One blows it they all go, that should take care of the overpopulation topic in another thread and it should take about 1 month. Suicide via self-impalement on a sharp fencepost.
I'll reserve my opinion until I find out if they think any current 'ways of doing things' should be torn down and can come up with a way to implement those changes while adhering to the 7 rights listed.
All elected officials and corporate big-wigs should have to swear an oath to those rights under penalty of death for themselves and all their relatives. One blows it they all go, that should take care of the overpopulation topic in another thread and it should take about 1 month. Suicide via self-impalement on a sharp fencepost.
Genius
Posts: 785
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
May 7th, 2008, 10:53 PM
Quoting gopher
That is probably the best route to be as successful as we (as humans that are prone to not getting anything right on the first, or even 2nd attempt) can be. Since not all the thing we do as a 'group' these days is a benign way of doing it, there still has to be some 'gentile way' to implement the changes that are needed. For instance how can the poor be lifted out of poverty? A kind word does nothing for an empty stomach.
Better a club than a cult --- at least nobody has been harmed by adhering to its ideas. Quite the contrary, society has benefited by them.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,116
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
May 8th, 2008, 12:42 AM
Quoting karrie
No. Being new doesn't make anything new or better.
Because it's new it's better?
Quoting karrie
Atrocities almost always come with organized group of people??? Are you an anarchist? Are you sure you said what you wanted to say?
Because it hasn't had time to form solid views and commit the atrocities that almost always come along with organized groups of people?
Quoting karrie
So if my religion speaks of love and compassion while yours speaks of hate and greed I'm not allowed to say my religion is better than yours? All is relative and nothing is any better than anything else?
Is it still made up of people? Because if it is, it's not a far cry from any other religion on the face of this earth in their idyllic beginnings. Look at the teachings of Christ, and the people who embraced them in the beginning. Then look at how far people have wandered away from them, and to what degree they've twisted them. Religion is religion is religion. And trust me, the instant someone in that parish says it's a 'better' religion, they've started their walk down the road to seeing it twisted.
May 8th, 2008, 09:08 AM
And yes, I meant what I said. If your church speaks of love and compassion and you spend your time judging and pointing fingers at the 'church of hate and greed', rather than simply living the credo of your 'church of love and compassion' then you're falling into the trap that many religions have fallen into over the centuries.
It's always amazed me how far the message and the practice can end up separated from one another. I attend the Catholic church, and this is an issue I spend a lot of time discussing. The message we've been given, versus the way we choose to try to spread it. Christian churches have been given a beautiful message, a wonderful core set of values, but they've spent so much time fighting over the small print and judging one another over the dogmatic details, that you're hard pressed to find the core teaching of Christ while he was upon this earth, amongst all the backbiting and finger pointing.
Look at almost any other old religion (Buddhism is one of the few that stands apart), and what do you find? You find the exact same problems. Different sects, angry and upset with one another, because 'yer doing it wrong!'
Now don't get me wrong... trying to create a new religion without the flaws of the old is a noble and grand idea. But, it's still made up of people. And as such, isn't much different from any other church in the world. Because the problems in most churches aren't with the core set of values. They're with the interpretations and implementations by the people within them.
Quoting s_lone
s_lone, show me one case where an individual, rather than a group of people organized under one common belief system, committed a large scale genocide, started a war, or enslaved people. It tends to be that tribalism, be it centered around race religion or nationality, emboldens people to push their world view upon others. I'm not an anarchist, but, I'm not naive either.
No. Being new doesn't make anything new or better.
Atrocities almost always come with organized group of people??? Are you an anarchist? Are you sure you said what you wanted to say?
So if my religion speaks of love and compassion while yours speaks of hate and greed I'm not allowed to say my religion is better than yours? All is relative and nothing is any better than anything else?
Atrocities almost always come with organized group of people??? Are you an anarchist? Are you sure you said what you wanted to say?
So if my religion speaks of love and compassion while yours speaks of hate and greed I'm not allowed to say my religion is better than yours? All is relative and nothing is any better than anything else?
And yes, I meant what I said. If your church speaks of love and compassion and you spend your time judging and pointing fingers at the 'church of hate and greed', rather than simply living the credo of your 'church of love and compassion' then you're falling into the trap that many religions have fallen into over the centuries.
It's always amazed me how far the message and the practice can end up separated from one another. I attend the Catholic church, and this is an issue I spend a lot of time discussing. The message we've been given, versus the way we choose to try to spread it. Christian churches have been given a beautiful message, a wonderful core set of values, but they've spent so much time fighting over the small print and judging one another over the dogmatic details, that you're hard pressed to find the core teaching of Christ while he was upon this earth, amongst all the backbiting and finger pointing.
Look at almost any other old religion (Buddhism is one of the few that stands apart), and what do you find? You find the exact same problems. Different sects, angry and upset with one another, because 'yer doing it wrong!'
Now don't get me wrong... trying to create a new religion without the flaws of the old is a noble and grand idea. But, it's still made up of people. And as such, isn't much different from any other church in the world. Because the problems in most churches aren't with the core set of values. They're with the interpretations and implementations by the people within them.
