Member
Posts: 64 
September 12th, 2007, 10:04 AM
Many religions or let me say all religions believe that there is a God. Some religions believe that there are also gods beside the God but we are not concerned with such gods but with the God only. Almost all religions believe that the God is absolutely just and that humans with all their good intentions can slip or mistake justice while the God being the Almighty does complete justice in absolute sense. There are some questions in my mind (which somebody asked me) or perhaps may be in yours challenging this justness of the God. Please co-operate and join hands to give suitable answers so that faith in the God does not shatter or weaken. I am not a learned scholar or a philosopher so I need your help. Please provide help in the name of God.
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is cruel. He allows fraction of his (so called) choice to conquer, suppress and even kill their opponents. He is much happy if such a fraction is successful but if others harm that fraction or even intend to do so He is much annoyed. Is this not cruelty that He does not bother about humans not belonging to his so called special group?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is class conscience and He feels happy when nobles or wealthy arrange special majestic and even big ceremonies in his honor. Upper class can pray in a befitting manner while poor cannot and poor localities even have unbefitting places of worship. Is this not class consciousness?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God accepts bribery. Wealthy person gives alms in God's name. Wealth is also required to perform pilgrimages and for some other religious bindings. Wealth is also required to please renowned religious clergies and then they pray for God's blessings and some powerful influential persons make some clergies pray for them in most holy places declared by the God while poor remain deprived. Does the God accept bribery?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is unjust in providing luxuries of life to some people and others remain suffering. Resources are necessary in every field of life and poor die for want of medicine, shelter, food etc. How they can pray the God sincerely feeling agitations in their hearts and not being satisfied?
Somebody said and this time he seemed much confident (God forbid) that the God is surely unjust for blessing some people with his true religion and kept depriving others for no fault of their own as they even didn’t heard of that. How natives of new found lands or people who lived before advent of that blessed religion can be blamed for not believing? Nearly a century or two ago more than half of population of this globe was not aware of proclaimed best religions and even among these religions only one is said to be true. Can any ordinary person living constantly in a huge community with out any traveling opportunities to other regions think about any change over to other if his/her is not a blessed one? Is the God ignoring merit and equality for allowing only his so called preferred group to enter heaven? Will only that group be blessed as a whole and others will be damned as a whole? Is this not injustice?
Please join hands to answer these questions. I believe that these are totally unjust charges against the God. Please be serious and sincere because if such charges are not successfully and undoubtedly refuted there will be no room for any religion. Please think if the God is unjust how any religion can be justified. I think most people are indifferent towards religions especially in modern world although apparently they seem to have one. I appeal to you for help disregard of your religious attachments.
Many religions or let me say all religions believe that there is a God. Some religions believe that there are also gods beside the God but we are not concerned with such gods but with the God only. Almost all religions believe that the God is absolutely just and that humans with all their good intentions can slip or mistake justice while the God being the Almighty does complete justice in absolute sense. There are some questions in my mind (which somebody asked me) or perhaps may be in yours challenging this justness of the God. Please co-operate and join hands to give suitable answers so that faith in the God does not shatter or weaken. I am not a learned scholar or a philosopher so I need your help. Please provide help in the name of God.
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is cruel. He allows fraction of his (so called) choice to conquer, suppress and even kill their opponents. He is much happy if such a fraction is successful but if others harm that fraction or even intend to do so He is much annoyed. Is this not cruelty that He does not bother about humans not belonging to his so called special group?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is class conscience and He feels happy when nobles or wealthy arrange special majestic and even big ceremonies in his honor. Upper class can pray in a befitting manner while poor cannot and poor localities even have unbefitting places of worship. Is this not class consciousness?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God accepts bribery. Wealthy person gives alms in God's name. Wealth is also required to perform pilgrimages and for some other religious bindings. Wealth is also required to please renowned religious clergies and then they pray for God's blessings and some powerful influential persons make some clergies pray for them in most holy places declared by the God while poor remain deprived. Does the God accept bribery?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is unjust in providing luxuries of life to some people and others remain suffering. Resources are necessary in every field of life and poor die for want of medicine, shelter, food etc. How they can pray the God sincerely feeling agitations in their hearts and not being satisfied?
Somebody said and this time he seemed much confident (God forbid) that the God is surely unjust for blessing some people with his true religion and kept depriving others for no fault of their own as they even didn’t heard of that. How natives of new found lands or people who lived before advent of that blessed religion can be blamed for not believing? Nearly a century or two ago more than half of population of this globe was not aware of proclaimed best religions and even among these religions only one is said to be true. Can any ordinary person living constantly in a huge community with out any traveling opportunities to other regions think about any change over to other if his/her is not a blessed one? Is the God ignoring merit and equality for allowing only his so called preferred group to enter heaven? Will only that group be blessed as a whole and others will be damned as a whole? Is this not injustice?
Please join hands to answer these questions. I believe that these are totally unjust charges against the God. Please be serious and sincere because if such charges are not successfully and undoubtedly refuted there will be no room for any religion. Please think if the God is unjust how any religion can be justified. I think most people are indifferent towards religions especially in modern world although apparently they seem to have one. I appeal to you for help disregard of your religious attachments.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,773 
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
September 12th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Wolf
Quoting Niflmir
Not defending any religion here - 'cuz I'm wa-aa-ay out of my depth - but all those years ago in Sunday School, did I learn wrong if interpret what God gave Job was choice and the opportunity to burn his own butt?
Well, I have a religion and there is no room in it for any god, but that is irrelevant.
What God did to Job was not just by normal meanings of justice.
What God did to Job was not just by normal meanings of justice.
Wolf
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
September 12th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Do you mean that we are supposed to interpret Job as the price we pay for free will?
Quoting lone wolf
Not entirely sure what you mean.
did I learn wrong if interpret what God gave Job was choice and the opportunity to burn his own butt?
Wolf
Wolf
Do you mean that we are supposed to interpret Job as the price we pay for free will?
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,054
Location: Twinksland
Location: Twinksland
September 12th, 2007, 11:40 AM
it all goes back to free will and personal choices/responsibilities. It seems that we are happy with our free will as long as it brings personal gain. The minute we choose the wrong path, either as an individual or as a group and it's somebodies else's fault. Or we chalk it up to fate/destiny.
it all goes back to free will and personal choices/responsibilities. It seems that we are happy with our free will as long as it brings personal gain. The minute we choose the wrong path, either as an individual or as a group and it's somebodies else's fault. Or we chalk it up to fate/destiny.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
September 12th, 2007, 11:54 AM
Of course Job can be interpreted that way if you do not take it literally, but that really detracts from the usefulness of the bible.
Saying anything about a god generally works in a top down way, one defines what that characteristic is based on the behavior of that god. For instance justice, one says their god is just and then any apparent contradictions are swept under the rug by saying we mortals don't comprehend the deific version of justice.
But things don't work like that, for me. We have a concept known as justice and although it is vague, some things, like giving someone a disease to test how faithful they are (imagine me doing that to my wife?), are not justified. If a god doesn't conform to our concept of justice then it is not just, one can say justice isn't as good as we make it out to be, but that is another issue. We agree on a language first, then we can go about saying what is and what is not.
Of course Job can be interpreted that way if you do not take it literally, but that really detracts from the usefulness of the bible.
Saying anything about a god generally works in a top down way, one defines what that characteristic is based on the behavior of that god. For instance justice, one says their god is just and then any apparent contradictions are swept under the rug by saying we mortals don't comprehend the deific version of justice.
But things don't work like that, for me. We have a concept known as justice and although it is vague, some things, like giving someone a disease to test how faithful they are (imagine me doing that to my wife?), are not justified. If a god doesn't conform to our concept of justice then it is not just, one can say justice isn't as good as we make it out to be, but that is another issue. We agree on a language first, then we can go about saying what is and what is not.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,773
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
September 12th, 2007, 11:57 AM
Wolf
Quoting Niflmir
Bible is a lesson - NOT a text. As a free-thinker, you can interpret a lot more from it than someone else can ever pound into you.
Of course Job can be interpreted that way if you do not take it literally, but that really detracts from the usefulness of the bible.
Saying anything about a god generally works in a top down way, one defines what that characteristic is based on the behavior of that god. For instance justice, one says their god is just and then any apparent contradictions are swept under the rug by saying we mortals don't comprehend the deific version of justice.
But things don't work like that, for me. We have a concept known as justice and although it is vague, some things, like giving someone a disease to test how faithful they are (imagine me doing that to my wife?), are not justified. If a god doesn't conform to our concept of justice then it is not just, one can say justice isn't as good as we make it out to be, but that is another issue. We agree on a language first, then we can go about saying what is and what is not.
Saying anything about a god generally works in a top down way, one defines what that characteristic is based on the behavior of that god. For instance justice, one says their god is just and then any apparent contradictions are swept under the rug by saying we mortals don't comprehend the deific version of justice.
But things don't work like that, for me. We have a concept known as justice and although it is vague, some things, like giving someone a disease to test how faithful they are (imagine me doing that to my wife?), are not justified. If a god doesn't conform to our concept of justice then it is not just, one can say justice isn't as good as we make it out to be, but that is another issue. We agree on a language first, then we can go about saying what is and what is not.
Wolf
September 12th, 2007, 11:58 AM
If we have free will we should assume that the consequences of our actions belong to us alone. Governments are in effect setting laws which coerce us into a defined code of how to act.
Whether or not we choose to follow those recommendations is up to us, and we should willingly accept the consequences, or move to another country.
If we have free will we should assume that the consequences of our actions belong to us alone. Governments are in effect setting laws which coerce us into a defined code of how to act.
Whether or not we choose to follow those recommendations is up to us, and we should willingly accept the consequences, or move to another country.
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
September 12th, 2007, 12:15 PM
This is a geat post. It touches on the very fabric of how billions of people have come to view this biblical God. The Irish have a saying.The cross one has to bear. It's like some curse God placed upon some....
Well the fact you have given God human attributes tells me you are talking about something you know nothing about.
The moment anyone places the word Him or Her in the same sentence in discussing God, all form of reality is out the window. No matter what religion teacher in what ever position they have carved out for themselves if they refer to God in the manner of your post your lost in some political game started thousands of years to inflict fear on an enemy in some desert....What do you think all these tales of God coming to the aid of the Jews was really all about? Nothing more than War Paint!
It is so obvious a ploy.....
Then you have this Great Master Jesus with his message of love. A true master bringing Love to everyone.....Then the Roman Emperor Constantine raising him to the Son of God status....And what have you today?
Any religion believing in the Biblical God and the way This God interacts with Humankind is so far out there from the truth it has become merely a political tool to control and inflict war, and raise people to the call for war...totally barbaric BASE politics......
You are never actually going to be able as a human to understand fully and explain God ...for that is beyond are present state of possibilities...but one can point to and direct one to the whole of God...which has to include you...not any more or any less important than the whole unto itself.
Now what is God then.....You are God....You were not created...there is no creation for it is just an aspect of the whole.....something that always has been with no beginning and no end.....many changes of the God....if you want to use the word God to describe yourself that is......
This is a geat post. It touches on the very fabric of how billions of people have come to view this biblical God. The Irish have a saying.The cross one has to bear. It's like some curse God placed upon some....
Well the fact you have given God human attributes tells me you are talking about something you know nothing about.
The moment anyone places the word Him or Her in the same sentence in discussing God, all form of reality is out the window. No matter what religion teacher in what ever position they have carved out for themselves if they refer to God in the manner of your post your lost in some political game started thousands of years to inflict fear on an enemy in some desert....What do you think all these tales of God coming to the aid of the Jews was really all about? Nothing more than War Paint!
It is so obvious a ploy.....
Then you have this Great Master Jesus with his message of love. A true master bringing Love to everyone.....Then the Roman Emperor Constantine raising him to the Son of God status....And what have you today?
Any religion believing in the Biblical God and the way This God interacts with Humankind is so far out there from the truth it has become merely a political tool to control and inflict war, and raise people to the call for war...totally barbaric BASE politics......
You are never actually going to be able as a human to understand fully and explain God ...for that is beyond are present state of possibilities...but one can point to and direct one to the whole of God...which has to include you...not any more or any less important than the whole unto itself.
Now what is God then.....You are God....You were not created...there is no creation for it is just an aspect of the whole.....something that always has been with no beginning and no end.....many changes of the God....if you want to use the word God to describe yourself that is......
Quoting akbar
Many religions or let me say all religions believe that there is a God. Some religions believe that there are also gods beside the God but we are not concerned with such gods but with the God only. Almost all religions believe that the God is absolutely just and that humans with all their good intentions can slip or mistake justice while the God being the Almighty does complete justice in absolute sense. There are some questions in my mind (which somebody asked me) or perhaps may be in yours challenging this justness of the God. Please co-operate and join hands to give suitable answers so that faith in the God does not shatter or weaken. I am not a learned scholar or a philosopher so I need your help. Please provide help in the name of God.
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is cruel. He allows fraction of his (so called) choice to conquer, suppress and even kill their opponents. He is much happy if such a fraction is successful but if others harm that fraction or even intend to do so He is much annoyed. Is this not cruelty that He does not bother about humans not belonging to his so called special group?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is class conscience and He feels happy when nobles or wealthy arrange special majestic and even big ceremonies in his honor. Upper class can pray in a befitting manner while poor cannot and poor localities even have unbefitting places of worship. Is this not class consciousness?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God accepts bribery. Wealthy person gives alms in God's name. Wealth is also required to perform pilgrimages and for some other religious bindings. Wealth is also required to please renowned religious clergies and then they pray for God's blessings and some powerful influential persons make some clergies pray for them in most holy places declared by the God while poor remain deprived. Does the God accept bribery?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is unjust in providing luxuries of life to some people and others remain suffering. Resources are necessary in every field of life and poor die for want of medicine, shelter, food etc. How they can pray the God sincerely feeling agitations in their hearts and not being satisfied?
Somebody said and this time he seemed much confident (God forbid) that the God is surely unjust for blessing some people with his true religion and kept depriving others for no fault of their own as they even didn’t heard of that. How natives of new found lands or people who lived before advent of that blessed religion can be blamed for not believing? Nearly a century or two ago more than half of population of this globe was not aware of proclaimed best religions and even among these religions only one is said to be true. Can any ordinary person living constantly in a huge community with out any traveling opportunities to other regions think about any change over to other if his/her is not a blessed one? Is the God ignoring merit and equality for allowing only his so called preferred group to enter heaven? Will only that group be blessed as a whole and others will be damned as a whole? Is this not injustice?
Please join hands to answer these questions. I believe that these are totally unjust charges against the God. Please be serious and sincere because if such charges are not successfully and undoubtedly refuted there will be no room for any religion. Please think if the God is unjust how any religion can be justified. I think most people are indifferent towards religions especially in modern world although apparently they seem to have one. I appeal to you for help disregard of your religious attachments.
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is cruel. He allows fraction of his (so called) choice to conquer, suppress and even kill their opponents. He is much happy if such a fraction is successful but if others harm that fraction or even intend to do so He is much annoyed. Is this not cruelty that He does not bother about humans not belonging to his so called special group?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is class conscience and He feels happy when nobles or wealthy arrange special majestic and even big ceremonies in his honor. Upper class can pray in a befitting manner while poor cannot and poor localities even have unbefitting places of worship. Is this not class consciousness?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God accepts bribery. Wealthy person gives alms in God's name. Wealth is also required to perform pilgrimages and for some other religious bindings. Wealth is also required to please renowned religious clergies and then they pray for God's blessings and some powerful influential persons make some clergies pray for them in most holy places declared by the God while poor remain deprived. Does the God accept bribery?
Somebody said (God forbid) that the God is unjust in providing luxuries of life to some people and others remain suffering. Resources are necessary in every field of life and poor die for want of medicine, shelter, food etc. How they can pray the God sincerely feeling agitations in their hearts and not being satisfied?
Somebody said and this time he seemed much confident (God forbid) that the God is surely unjust for blessing some people with his true religion and kept depriving others for no fault of their own as they even didn’t heard of that. How natives of new found lands or people who lived before advent of that blessed religion can be blamed for not believing? Nearly a century or two ago more than half of population of this globe was not aware of proclaimed best religions and even among these religions only one is said to be true. Can any ordinary person living constantly in a huge community with out any traveling opportunities to other regions think about any change over to other if his/her is not a blessed one? Is the God ignoring merit and equality for allowing only his so called preferred group to enter heaven? Will only that group be blessed as a whole and others will be damned as a whole? Is this not injustice?
Please join hands to answer these questions. I believe that these are totally unjust charges against the God. Please be serious and sincere because if such charges are not successfully and undoubtedly refuted there will be no room for any religion. Please think if the God is unjust how any religion can be justified. I think most people are indifferent towards religions especially in modern world although apparently they seem to have one. I appeal to you for help disregard of your religious attachments.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,322
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
September 12th, 2007, 12:33 PM
whatever is being addressed or ignored is 'in the minds of the believers', as it has no connection to the real world, it is all mythical, so, for me, it just shows the lengths the human race will go to create
myths.
All of those 'so called' problems listed above don't really exist at all, as none of that is real, the religious laws in our world drives most of us, and control our thoughts and actions.
That, to me, keeps us locked down in a pattern that does not allow us to be free with our thoughts
and live in reality, I am so glad I'm not part of that pattern, but, good luck, hope you muddle
through all of the above.
whatever is being addressed or ignored is 'in the minds of the believers', as it has no connection to the real world, it is all mythical, so, for me, it just shows the lengths the human race will go to create
myths.
All of those 'so called' problems listed above don't really exist at all, as none of that is real, the religious laws in our world drives most of us, and control our thoughts and actions.
That, to me, keeps us locked down in a pattern that does not allow us to be free with our thoughts
and live in reality, I am so glad I'm not part of that pattern, but, good luck, hope you muddle
through all of the above.
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
September 12th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Quoting talloola
chuckles....*wink*...right on taloola
whatever is being addressed or ignored is 'in the minds of the believers', as it has no connection to the real world, it is all mythical, so, for me, it just shows the lengths the human race will go to create
myths.
All of those 'so called' problems listed above don't really exist at all, as none of that is real, the religious laws in our world drives most of us, and control our thoughts and actions.
That, to me, keeps us locked down in a pattern that does not allow us to be free with our thoughts
and live in reality, I am so glad I'm not part of that pattern, but, good luck, hope you muddle
through all of the above.
myths.
All of those 'so called' problems listed above don't really exist at all, as none of that is real, the religious laws in our world drives most of us, and control our thoughts and actions.
That, to me, keeps us locked down in a pattern that does not allow us to be free with our thoughts
and live in reality, I am so glad I'm not part of that pattern, but, good luck, hope you muddle
through all of the above.
Member
Posts: 64
September 21st, 2007, 11:03 AM
Be aware, an out law is at large,
Though not a bad mannered, though not a looter,
Though not a wicked,Though not a killer,
Yet he is a treacherous, Yet he is a swindler,
He may bereft you of the most precious holding,
Your religious complacency, your holy belonging,
Be aware of him, as he is a devil daring,
As he might be finished by the brave persons,
And they take themselves guards of heavens,
He says would not accept any born seniority,
By any one who so ever might be authority,
He says would the God damn other's childern?,
As when or where to born may not be their concern,
He says would take to task some or all,
Would face each community big or small.
He says that all holy laws are man made,
Which inequalize the humans on any base,
How religions can survive if all are equal?
Be aware as he is a threat to their survival.
Be aware, an out law is at large,
Though not a bad mannered, though not a looter,
Though not a wicked,Though not a killer,
Yet he is a treacherous, Yet he is a swindler,
He may bereft you of the most precious holding,
Your religious complacency, your holy belonging,
Be aware of him, as he is a devil daring,
As he might be finished by the brave persons,
And they take themselves guards of heavens,
He says would not accept any born seniority,
By any one who so ever might be authority,
He says would the God damn other's childern?,
As when or where to born may not be their concern,
He says would take to task some or all,
Would face each community big or small.
He says that all holy laws are man made,
Which inequalize the humans on any base,
How religions can survive if all are equal?
Be aware as he is a threat to their survival.
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
September 21st, 2007, 11:55 AM
Quoting akbar
Quran right????
Be aware, an out law is at large,
Though not a bad mannered, though not a looter,
Though not a wicked,Though not a killer,
Yet he is a treacherous, Yet he is a swindler,
He may bereft you of the most precious holding,
Your religious complacency, your holy belonging,
Be aware of him, as he is a devil daring,
As he might be finished by the brave persons,
And they take themselves guards of heavens,
He says would not accept any born seniority,
By any one who so ever might be authority,
He says would the God damn other's childern?,
As when or where to born may not be their concern,
He says would take to task some or all,
Would face each community big or small.
He says that all holy laws are man made,
Which inequalize the humans on any base,
How religions can survive if all are equal?
Be aware as he is a threat to their survival.
Though not a bad mannered, though not a looter,
Though not a wicked,Though not a killer,
Yet he is a treacherous, Yet he is a swindler,
He may bereft you of the most precious holding,
Your religious complacency, your holy belonging,
Be aware of him, as he is a devil daring,
As he might be finished by the brave persons,
And they take themselves guards of heavens,
He says would not accept any born seniority,
By any one who so ever might be authority,
He says would the God damn other's childern?,
As when or where to born may not be their concern,
He says would take to task some or all,
Would face each community big or small.
He says that all holy laws are man made,
Which inequalize the humans on any base,
How religions can survive if all are equal?
Be aware as he is a threat to their survival.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,872
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 23rd, 2007, 04:18 PM
The whole cocept of Job is missed!
Unless we have an eye for the spiritual, that story becomes a myth.
For me, there is no argument. I understand the concept of Job.
Fitsd perfectly with the rest of the bible.
Peace>>>AJ
The whole cocept of Job is missed!
Unless we have an eye for the spiritual, that story becomes a myth.
For me, there is no argument. I understand the concept of Job.
Fitsd perfectly with the rest of the bible.
Peace>>>AJ
