Does evil exist?

[Machjo]

If we consider that the opposite of exixtance is non-existance, then would it not be logical to conclude that the opposite of spiritual qualities which exist is just an absence of said qualities? For instance, according to science, darkness and cold do not exist (they're just absences of light and heat repspectively). So if a loving God exists, and all He created is good, then if he never created evil, then how can it exist? So is evil just an absence of good; hate, love, greed, compassion, etc.?

Then in the material world, how do we explain the venom of a snake, for instance? Can we argue that that venom was created by God for a good purpose (i.e., self defence for the snake)? Thus, if I should step on a snake's tail, then it's biting me in self defence is not necessarily an evil act per se?

What are your thoughts on this? Does evil exist, or is it merely an absence of good? It's interesting to note that many religions use light as a metafore for God, guidance, etc. If so, then what about darkness, which science states does not exist?

 

[Finder]

Evil, good, whatever you want to call the gray somewhere inbetween is no more then general morals of society which are taught to us by society, either by our family, teachers, government and so on and so forth.


Evil and good are merely concepts by the moral standerds of your society.

 

[gopher]

Christian teaching dictates that God does not create evil. However, the Bible teaches the precise opposite: God is the exclusive creater of ALL evil according to Isaiah 45:7. He is also reported to be omnipresent and omnisicent (all knowing) which means that he knew well in advance that the Fall would occur and was actually present when it happened. In many Western cultures the root for the word 'God' is the same for the number 'two'. And that is because God is acknowledged to have duality. He is both good and evil.

So yes, evil exists because an evil God is responsible for it. :idea:

 

[Finder]

Christian teaching dictates that God does not create evil. However, the Bible teaches the precise opposite: God is the exclusive creater of ALL evil according to Isaiah 45:7. He is also reported to be omnipresent and omnisicent (all knowing) which means that he knew well in advance that the Fall would occur and was actually present when it happened. In many Western cultures the root for the word 'God' is the same for the number 'two'. And that is because God is acknowledged to have duality. He is both good and evil.

So yes, evil exists because an evil God is responsible for it. :idea:

Which is one of the reasons for me not to believe in the bible and the koran. =-D Because if you believe in them then god is somewhat manic depressant

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Does evil exist, or is it merely an absence of good? It's interesting to note that many religions use light as a metafore for God, guidance, etc. If so, then what about darkness, which science states does not exist?

Science doesn't claim darkness doesn't exist, darkness is just a label for certain physical conditions that certainly do exist. It's a description of a region of space in which there is no radiation of a wavelength our eyes can detect. But I quibble.

Yes, evil exists. Consider this record of slaughter in just the 20th century:

1901-1919, 1 million Armenians as part of ethnic cleansing by Ottoman Turks
1950-1974, 30 million Chinese by 'communists'
1925-1940, 25 million citizens of the former Soviet Union by 'communists'
1940-1945, 20 million citizens and soldiers of the former Soviet Union by Germans
1941-1955, 5 million Germans as a result of WW2
1939-1945, 6 million Jews by Nazis across most of Europe.
1939-1945, 6 million other ‘undesirables' (gays, resisters, catholics, gypsies, the infirm, etc.) by Nazis
1952-1960, .5 million Hindus and Moslems by each other during separation of India and Pakistan
1968-1976, 2 million Cambodians by 'communists'
1969-1984, 2 million Ugandans in a series of tribal wars
1960-1996, 2 million Hutu and Tutsi tribe members in tribal warfare
1989-present, 1.5 million Sudanese Christians and animists by northern Sudanese Muslims, who also still trade in slaves.

There's more of course, but that's enough for one post. Google for "holocausts" and you'll get that and more. The people who caused those things didn't just lack goodness, they were actively wicked. I suppose it's possible to view people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al, as products of complex social forces and yada yada yada... Bull. They were bad, evil people who deserved to be shot.

edited to fix a format error. I hate that...

 

[Finder]

Dexter Sinister, of course Pol Pot and the other's are evil by our moral standerds, but was Mr Pot born "evil" and what do you believe the follers of the Kumar Rouge were trying to do. Do you think they all decided "yeah lets be evil and kill lots of people" or where they out for a goal which they thought would better men kind but ended up doing the opposite. I highly doubt these people thought of themselves as being evil and society in itself had a large roll to play on why they did what they did and the perceived threats, real or not which lead them to the actions they would take. These are just a few of the things you have to take into consideration. I understand I am playing the devils advocate in a sence but when questioning the orgins of evil or if it exists you must ask questions which seem somewhat absurd.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I seriously doubt people believe themselves to be evil, they'll have rationalizations and explanations that, at least in their own minds, justify what they do. Even the most horrifying psychopaths can justify themselves: "I heard the voice of God in my head telling me to do..." whatever they did. I can't imagine any moral standard that'd judge such people, or Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al, as being in any sense good.

As to whether some people are born evil... I don't really know, but I'm inclined to think the answer's yes. It's pretty clear from modern psychology that a new born child is not a blank slate, there's a genetic component to personality, and it appears that some people are born without what we usually call a conscience. Those are the sociopaths and psychopaths.

 

[Finder]

So then "evil" or to be evil, is truly in the eye of the beholder. Depending on the set values of your society and not any natural construct in the human psyche.

 

[Jersay]

Good, evil is no difference. There is no good or evil in my religion. Just people going down different paths.

 

[Cosmo]

The people who caused those things didn't just lack goodness, they were actively wicked.

Well said, Dexter.

The whole idea of evil is one of the things that constantly confused me growing up roman catholic ... if god created everything, he either screwed up big time in that department or had a crappy sense of humour. Either way, it didn't fit what the priests were trying to brainwash me into.

Growing up in a traditional home and being taught a monotheistic belief system, I eventually tossed out the whole package of good and evil along with my religion. I fell into agreement with Plato (he thought evil was really lack of knowledge and enlightenment). I thought evil itself did not exist. I got into the whole "no darkness, only an absence of light" way of thinking. I read Scott Peck and figured he was correct.

Eventually I lapped the block enough times to realize what Dexter put so well ... evil is more than just an absence of good. It is an action that requires more than simple ignorance. I've met people with evil intent. People who lacked basic character elements that make people good and responsible. People that harmed others with no sense of remorse or regret. People that enjoyed seeing others in pain. I'm not talking about those fun S&M games we all like to play, but taking pleasure in truly damaging other living beings.

Evil exists. It is often found in the most unlikely of places. Mothers who play Munchausen by proxy with their kids; the Bundy's and Gacy's of the world. Dexter's list.

These days I follow a simple creed: Harm none. That pretty much covers all the bases. There are times I'm tempted to behave in an evil manner -- to actively hurt someone's feelings or punch their lights out -- but in the end people who have a conscience and do evil suffer for it. I need to be able to look in the mirror and know I haven't stepped over that line.

On a lighter note ...

I ran across this link a while ago and had to go search it out for this topic ... http://evil-guide.tripod.com/ :twisted:

 

[cortezzz]

perhaps-- evil as you describe it can be brought back to earth if we think of it as ---
a disorder--now
or -formally a variation of the norm-- usefull to the tribe

--- not to excuse it
but to describe it--- in naturalistic terms
rather than emotionally charged metaphysical ones

and by disorder i dont mean it can be treated-- or excused

a certain percentage of the population-- lets guess -- 1-2% are trully psychopathic-- they dont care about thier fellow humans-- except as --- means ---

tribes with these members-- have been selected for-- in the sense that the tribe---if enlightentend will put them to work as---
executioners
or as soldiers-- to fight other tribes

the tribes without these evil people--
are probably extinct

we dont generally regard members of our own tribe as evil--- even though they may have caused as much harm as those of other tribes

were the crew of the enola gay --evil...

 

[Finder]

Cortez, I think you pretty much hit the nail, at least close to the head. The Crew of enola gay, were just as "evil" as the proponants of the "Kumar Rouge".

When it comes down to it, people let themselves get fooled by what they consider a greater good. By nuking the japs we will save a million american lives and perhaps just as many japs. Thats what they most likely thought. The Kumar Rouge most likely thought by making sure people listend to our logic of making a new society it will benifit all of society as a whole. If a few people need to be silenced for the common good then you can't make an omlete without breaking eggs.

These questions of good and evil are hard to talk about, because you have to dig deep into human nature and sometimes when you dig deep enough to find out why, what and how it is to be "good", we find the concept of good to be more abstract then we could ever believe it to be.

As I have said before those among of who are blessed with stupity and ignorance are truly blessed because they never think of such concepts and live their lives oblivious and totally buying into one of the concepts of "good" in their society.

 

[cortezzz]

yeah-- i generally agree

its the old ethical dilema-- the ends vs the means

i hate to say it -- but even the most evil of people-- hitler---believed what he was doing was for a greater good

good vs evil is --- a duality that exists in each one of us

if we were to try to cut out all the evil in the world--- the knife would slice through everyone of our hearts

 

[Finder]

Our good is somebody elses evil and their good is our evil. *shrugs* It's almost like a paradox. Though I'm sure in a deeper sence it isn't. But it sure does feel like a paradox, because no matter what we do, the concept of good is still just a concept.

 

[cortezzz]

i think the concept of evil--- is really not usefull
except as some kind of emotionally charged propangadist term

if we want to discuss a certain -- historical event---
lets look at the circumstances
the details
the forces and decisions
the consequences
the facts

with respect to the domestic transgressions the
law--- does not i believe use the term evil
there are more descriptive terms--
ie psychopathic-- criminally insane etc

 

[Outta here]

Re: RE: Does evil exist?

if we were to try to cut out all the evil in the world--- the knife would slice through everyone of our hearts

.... yes cortezzz, and that is the crux of it no?

There is not a one of us who has not at the very least, entertained a notion at some time that someone, somewhere might consider evil. Even acted on such notions. This of course doesn't make us 'evil' per se, but it does humanize the concept.

Having at times conducted myself in less than stellar ways, I am cautious now in using such words as 'evil' to describe a set of behaviours and circumstances I have never lived....

There is a saying: "All attack is a cry for help." Somehow this rings true for me ... so in examining the actions taken by perpetrators of 'evil' acts, I just end up counting my blessings that I really don't understand what motivates some people to do the things they do... since the most exact understanding of any person's behaviour is usually gained by sharing their path - it enhances my gratitude for the ease of my own path - relatively speaking. I've never had to know what it's like to believe harming another is what is right or necessary. I hope I never do.

 

[Finder]

I know hoever, not to complicate this more, that some believe that there is a "natural good" born inheritantly in every human being. That some of our morals are innate somehow. Though I'm not sure if this can be truly proven and I would ask anyone who would like to try, to do so. lol.

 

[nelk]

Please allow me to rehash what I remember about the Bible and some of its basic messages :
God created the universe not in 6 literal days but 6 indefinite timespans ("a day to god is like a thousand years of man" meaning a timespan beyond the lifespan of humans and therefore undefined)

He created Adam and Eve as perfect humans and gave them free choice along with some instructions and yes the damn apple test.

He must have known about what Satan( which means lyer or slanderer) was irking to do. God knows the end from the beginning.

Satan like the archangel michael (later known as Jesus) plus undetermined amount of angles were the first companions God created ; all were granted more advanced qualities comperd to humans including whatever it takes to be a heavenly creature.
God did not like robots, thats why the free choice was the key feature, which allows everyone to make a choice, right up to today.
Of course with free choice came consequences.

Anyway this guy we call Satan figured he could do better and take over some rulership.
So even if Adam and Eve were perfect and forwarned etc, they fell for this sly troublemaker.
Well perfection was lost, there paradise gone and the hard live begun.
The Bible also mentioned about gods day of rest ; the sevenths which is still ongoing.
During this time period Satan is ruler of the earth and a powerful influence to men.
According to the scriptures the direct guidance and councel towards men was severly limited, cut off for most.
Thats when things started to happen, most not so good.
Murder, warfare, debauchery ,yeah all that sexy stuff outside recommended channels etc...
Since God did not create the world for nothing he put plan B in effect: the repurchasing of believing (behaving) peoples and their final salvation even resurrection through a ransom price you may have heard off>>>>>>> Jesus Christ and his sacrifice as perfect earthly man as a counter price for the mess that the other perfect man Adam got us in to.

God has all the time in the world, quiet literally. So things dont go
quick as we peoples like to see.

Long years ago he had one chap he liked (he behaved theocratically correct etc) that he called him "friend".
We do know him as Abraham the founder of the hebrews .
God promised him that his seed will be like sand on the sea and through him the savior will come. Mind you ,he was old, his wife Sarah menopausal, but why would I doubt God couldnt pull some strings, eh.
To make sure Abraham was standfast and a solid aquaintance he had to pass a test. Inhumane you say, but in the end isaak life was not sacrificed and all was well.
Any way this hebrew group grew in numbers , got themself into all kind of troubles, called on god, promised to behave and were granted certain successes repetitly, but int the end (507BC) lost
bigtime.
The messiah was not yet making his debut, the poor isralites had to suffer few more centuries of servitude and ruled by others.

All along prophetes maintained an open channel to gods announcements and counsel.(actually quiet interesting stuff describing things right up to our days etc)

When Jesus came along ,remember how he was tempted by satan to offer him an act of worship and satan would give him this world and all the riches in return.
Firstly how can he offer something he is not in posession or rulership off.
Secondly, like in Adam and Eves case (solidly confirming his lying) he wouldnt have.
But Jesus was standfast and you know the rest of it.

But the key infos are :
God is not currently in Control; he is at rest (watching I am sure)
Satan is the master over the earth and it shows

But a Guidebook with 66 chapters has been writen by a whole bunch of guys with quiet different levels of education over a time period of 1600 consequtive years.
And than forwarded right into our time(another 2000 years)despite ongoing attempts to supress and destroy it.
Has moved peoples to organise under it etc..


If you have any knowledge at all about this book of books, you ought to muster some respect.
Thats why we still swear by the Bible ; no other book has been published as often and is available to everyone on this planet.
I could not believe in a creator otherwise, he ought to talk to us.

But he also put disclaimers and warnings into the Bible , indicating a rise of false beliefs and bad leaders(wolves) camuflaged with Lambskins.


So does evil exist?
Well we are surrounded by it, cant escape it.
Again bible's definition of evel is our action when inborn sin (imperfection) motivates and drives our actions and the outcame is predicted:
The wage sin pays is death!

Bingo her you have it.
To me a sceptic and doubter, this is the most credible belief
(I didnt say religion) you can find on earth!
How about you?



PS didnt use my wordperfect, so forgive any typos etc :lol: :lol:

 

[Finder]

nelk, I don't mean to dismiss any religion as they all have there moral story and they set their beliefs on good and evil and thats how we see good and evil by enlarge in todays society. But really these are for lack of better terms, made up moral standerds. What I'm looking for, is to prove scientificly that their is an inate goodness in the human being.

Though thanks for the story and the bible lession. I enjoy reading the bible, Koran and so on and so forth often as I do base my moral of these great books.

 

[cortezzz]

I know hoever, not to complicate this more, that some believe that there is a "natural good" born inheritantly in every human being. That some of our morals are innate somehow. Though I'm not sure if this can be truly proven and I would ask anyone who would like to try, to do so. lol.

there is a natural good
the source is the nuturing parent child relationship---
which would have been selected for
ie tribes without this---- would have killed themselves off by now