Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,515 
Location: Changchun, China
Location: Changchun, China
April 26th, 2006, 05:34 AM
Well, do you?
Honestly, I find that I don't. If yo told me there was no floor under my feet, even if I wanted to believe you, even if I desperately wanted to believe you, I just coudn't; it's beyond my control. I used to not believe in God; again, not a choice. even if I wanted to believe in God, I would still not have believed in him. Now I do believe in God. And again, you guessed it; not my choice. I just do. Nothing I could do could cause me to disbelieve in God, just as before there was nothihng I could do to cause me to believe in God. Have you had the same experience, or is it in fact a choice in your case?
Your thoughts?
Well, do you?
Honestly, I find that I don't. If yo told me there was no floor under my feet, even if I wanted to believe you, even if I desperately wanted to believe you, I just coudn't; it's beyond my control. I used to not believe in God; again, not a choice. even if I wanted to believe in God, I would still not have believed in him. Now I do believe in God. And again, you guessed it; not my choice. I just do. Nothing I could do could cause me to disbelieve in God, just as before there was nothihng I could do to cause me to believe in God. Have you had the same experience, or is it in fact a choice in your case?
Your thoughts?
Clever Clogs
Posts: 531
Location: in the belly of the mouse
Location: in the belly of the mouse
April 26th, 2006, 12:19 PM
Well, as an agnostic, I have days where I believe in God more than on other days.
I do have a fair amount of control over it. I've been thinking about stuff like this for a while and have come to realize that every philosophical postion runs into situations where it doesn't apply and where only a new (contradictory) approach works. So, once you get used to seeing your viewpoints as "working hypotheses" rather than as "The Truth", it becomes easier to accept and understand other viewpoints.
On the other hand, I will probably never be able to believe in any sort of God without an equal measure of conviction that it's a mental construct, so I suppose I don't have that choice...
Well, as an agnostic, I have days where I believe in God more than on other days.
I do have a fair amount of control over it. I've been thinking about stuff like this for a while and have come to realize that every philosophical postion runs into situations where it doesn't apply and where only a new (contradictory) approach works. So, once you get used to seeing your viewpoints as "working hypotheses" rather than as "The Truth", it becomes easier to accept and understand other viewpoints.
On the other hand, I will probably never be able to believe in any sort of God without an equal measure of conviction that it's a mental construct, so I suppose I don't have that choice...
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
April 26th, 2006, 12:21 PM
I agree, pastafarian; I think I'm in the same boat as you.
I agree, pastafarian; I think I'm in the same boat as you.
Running out of ranks
Posts: 8,366 
April 26th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Thats good. It's tough for some and I appreciate that, I wish there was something I could do for people like yourself....I wish I could somehow give people their "road to Damascus", but alas I can't.
Quoting
Well, as an agnostic, I have days where I believe in God more than on other days.
Thats good. It's tough for some and I appreciate that, I wish there was something I could do for people like yourself....I wish I could somehow give people their "road to Damascus", but alas I can't.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
April 26th, 2006, 12:31 PM
I think that, at heart, I might be a Christian; however, even if I do believe in God, I'm not prepared to subscribe to an organized religion. I'm not prepared to open myself up to be vulnerable like that again.
I think that, at heart, I might be a Christian; however, even if I do believe in God, I'm not prepared to subscribe to an organized religion. I'm not prepared to open myself up to be vulnerable like that again.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
April 26th, 2006, 12:40 PM
Not to sound stupid, but what does "handed him a stone" mean?
Not to sound stupid, but what does "handed him a stone" mean?
Running out of ranks
Posts: 8,366
April 26th, 2006, 12:51 PM
It isn't a stupid querstion in the least.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...-11&version=9;
John 8:2-11 (King James Version)
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
It isn't a stupid querstion in the least.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...-11&version=9;
John 8:2-11 (King James Version)
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,899
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
April 26th, 2006, 01:17 PM
Five, I remember you telling of a pastor's response to your sexual orientation, and it was outrageous.
I'd like to apologize for the sensible part of the Christian community (if I CAN be called sensible, or part of a community....
)
My brother is both Christian and gay. He worked for the Anglican church in Toronto speaking on the subject of the church's treatment of homosexuals. He no longer does that job.
There are a whole lot of angles to this subject.
But, even if a Christian believes homosexual acts are sin, the correct attitude is LOVE the Sinner, hate the sin. And that is as negative as it should ever get.
Five, I remember you telling of a pastor's response to your sexual orientation, and it was outrageous.
I'd like to apologize for the sensible part of the Christian community (if I CAN be called sensible, or part of a community....
)My brother is both Christian and gay. He worked for the Anglican church in Toronto speaking on the subject of the church's treatment of homosexuals. He no longer does that job.
There are a whole lot of angles to this subject.
But, even if a Christian believes homosexual acts are sin, the correct attitude is LOVE the Sinner, hate the sin. And that is as negative as it should ever get.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 730
April 26th, 2006, 01:22 PM
People have a basic human need to believe in something greater than themselves. The natural world in all its spendor is too great and complex for the human mind to comprehend.
Even the greatest of minds liek Einstein believe in somethinig on the outside of our reality.
This may explain the apperant replacement of faith in religions with a faith in government and political ideologies.
I don't know which is the more believable.
People have a basic human need to believe in something greater than themselves. The natural world in all its spendor is too great and complex for the human mind to comprehend.
Even the greatest of minds liek Einstein believe in somethinig on the outside of our reality.
This may explain the apperant replacement of faith in religions with a faith in government and political ideologies.
I don't know which is the more believable.
Running out of ranks
Posts: 8,366
April 26th, 2006, 01:25 PM
I admit I once thought like the pastor Five had a falling out with; there is no shame in learning and growth and I learned and I grew.
Quoting
There are a whole lot of angles to this subject.
It is very true....but I found the right angle to come from.There are a whole lot of angles to this subject.
I admit I once thought like the pastor Five had a falling out with; there is no shame in learning and growth and I learned and I grew.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 531
Location: in the belly of the mouse
Location: in the belly of the mouse
April 26th, 2006, 02:08 PM
You could try finding Jesus and losing Ann Coulter.
Quote:
Ohhh Puh-leeeze!
I wish there was something I could do for people like yourself....I wish I could somehow give people their "road to Damascus", but alas I can't.
You could try finding Jesus and losing Ann Coulter.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
April 26th, 2006, 02:25 PM
Forum Guidelines Reminder
While I would assume, with respect, that the membership has no intention of continuing the exchange of words that seems to have surfaced, it should be worth noting here that the Administration has indicated that faith-based threads in the Faith Discussion forum are to be conducted sans heated confrontations between members (in particular, comments lacking respect for another member).
My Opinion Re: Guiding Another's Faith
I would suggest that one cannot assist another, to any appreciable effect, to come to terms with one's own faith. I don't think that it's possible for one to dictate the terms of a faith to another, and for those terms to take any sort of base or root with that person. In my opinion, one's faith must be just that — one's own faith, and while many would of course endeavour to assist others one way or another with the best of intentions at heart, I don't think that any true results can come from that.
Forum Guidelines ReminderWhile I would assume, with respect, that the membership has no intention of continuing the exchange of words that seems to have surfaced, it should be worth noting here that the Administration has indicated that faith-based threads in the Faith Discussion forum are to be conducted sans heated confrontations between members (in particular, comments lacking respect for another member).
My Opinion Re: Guiding Another's FaithI would suggest that one cannot assist another, to any appreciable effect, to come to terms with one's own faith. I don't think that it's possible for one to dictate the terms of a faith to another, and for those terms to take any sort of base or root with that person. In my opinion, one's faith must be just that — one's own faith, and while many would of course endeavour to assist others one way or another with the best of intentions at heart, I don't think that any true results can come from that.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,899
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
April 26th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Sorry Jay, but that was a good one!
Quoting
You could try finding Jesus and losing Ann Coulter.
Quote:
Ohhh Puh-leeeze!
I wish there was something I could do for people like yourself....I wish I could somehow give people their "road to Damascus", but alas I can't.
You could try finding Jesus and losing Ann Coulter.
Sorry Jay, but that was a good one!
Member
Posts: 225
Location: Where The Wild Things Are
Location: Where The Wild Things Are
April 26th, 2006, 04:30 PM
As an atheist, I have had the "Pascal's Wager" put before me by others, as if it was going to alter my entire life and way of thinking. To me, it was a silly question, because even if I did say "I believe" when in the most fundamental sense I do not, I would be a hypocrit and lying to myself and others.
So I guess my answer is no. I did not make a choice to believe what I believe. It is simply my own understanding of the world I see around me and the evidence or lack thereof in support of a reasonable alternative.
As an atheist, I have had the "Pascal's Wager" put before me by others, as if it was going to alter my entire life and way of thinking. To me, it was a silly question, because even if I did say "I believe" when in the most fundamental sense I do not, I would be a hypocrit and lying to myself and others.
So I guess my answer is no. I did not make a choice to believe what I believe. It is simply my own understanding of the world I see around me and the evidence or lack thereof in support of a reasonable alternative.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 3,399
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
April 26th, 2006, 05:25 PM
In particular, it doesn't work for me, though I can certainly see the appeal of it. It'd be very comforting to believe, for example, that my parents are still around in some form, looking out for me, but however much I might want to believe that, I can't. Equally, it'd be comforting to believe there's a supernatural being with a special interest in me, who's also looking out for me. I can't simply choose to believe such things, because the evidence seems to me to be overwhelmingly against them. No doubt there are those who'd say god hasn't yet seen fit to remove the scales from my eyes. Maybe so, but I don't believe that either.
So, my answer to the OP's question is no. What I believe to be true comes from reason and evidence. I can't believe things that are contrary to the evidence, and in the absence of evidence I'll maintain Doubting Thomas's position: show me.
Quoting
Right for you, sure; doesn't work for everyone. And I hope you're not claiming you're right in any absolute sense.
...but I found the right angle to come from.
In particular, it doesn't work for me, though I can certainly see the appeal of it. It'd be very comforting to believe, for example, that my parents are still around in some form, looking out for me, but however much I might want to believe that, I can't. Equally, it'd be comforting to believe there's a supernatural being with a special interest in me, who's also looking out for me. I can't simply choose to believe such things, because the evidence seems to me to be overwhelmingly against them. No doubt there are those who'd say god hasn't yet seen fit to remove the scales from my eyes. Maybe so, but I don't believe that either.
So, my answer to the OP's question is no. What I believe to be true comes from reason and evidence. I can't believe things that are contrary to the evidence, and in the absence of evidence I'll maintain Doubting Thomas's position: show me.
