Newbie
Posts: 44 
Location: Paradise - Vancouver Island
Location: Paradise - Vancouver Island
May 2nd, 2006, 05:45 PM
The assertion that 'God does not exist' should be no more controversial or considered a statement of belief than the assertion that 'The Tooth Fairy, green men from Mars, et al, do not exist'. The onus is on those claiming the existence of X to prove that X exists.
Quoting
"I don't believe in God" is a statement of fact, not belief.
Hence the atheist position is a statement of belief.
----------------Pastafarian-------------------------
Exactly.
That's what I've been telling Dexter Sinister.
----------------Pastafarian-------------------------
Exactly.
That's what I've been telling Dexter Sinister.
The assertion that 'God does not exist' should be no more controversial or considered a statement of belief than the assertion that 'The Tooth Fairy, green men from Mars, et al, do not exist'. The onus is on those claiming the existence of X to prove that X exists.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 531
Location: in the belly of the mouse
Location: in the belly of the mouse
May 3rd, 2006, 07:56 AM
If someone says to me, "The moon does not exist", then I'd say the onus is on them to prove their assertion.
Thus, atheism is as much a belief as theism.
And I quit this discussion since, as an agnostic, I don't really have a dog in this race.
I've never defended this side in a debate before. It usually ends with "Santa Claus gambit" and the "You can't prove non-existence" assertion.
ps: In my house the Tooth Fairy, Santa and the Easter Bunny are all alive and well
Quote:
Wherever would you get such an idea? Of course you can. I can prove that the rational number , a/b, which, when squared ,gives rise to a prime number, does not exist. Scientists have (to the extent that anything can be proven in science) proven that phlogiston and scotophobin do not exist.
One cannot prove the non-existence of something, only its existence.
If someone says to me, "The moon does not exist", then I'd say the onus is on them to prove their assertion.
Thus, atheism is as much a belief as theism.
And I quit this discussion since, as an agnostic, I don't really have a dog in this race.
I've never defended this side in a debate before. It usually ends with "Santa Claus gambit" and the "You can't prove non-existence" assertion.
ps: In my house the Tooth Fairy, Santa and the Easter Bunny are all alive and well
Newbie
Posts: 44
Location: Paradise - Vancouver Island
Location: Paradise - Vancouver Island
May 3rd, 2006, 12:20 PM
The necessary qualification that science is limited in its ability to prove that phlogiston and scotophobin do not exist confirms the empirical problem. To prove that X does not exist, science must find solid, factual, empirical - rather than just theoretical - proof (evidence) that at least one instance of X does exist. In this manner, the moon has been proven to exist. There is no empirical proof that God exists.
Quoting
You've confirmed my point. A number is a concept. It's not something that can be claimed to exist as cats, dogs or humans exist; mammals - and allegedly God - are not mere concepts. Quote:
Wherever would you get such an idea? ...I can prove that the rational number, a/b, which, when squared, gives rise to a prime number, does not exist. Scientists have (to the extent that anything can be proven in science) proven that phlogiston and scotophobin do not exist. If someone says to me, "The moon does not exist", then I'd say the onus is on them to prove their assertion.
One cannot prove the non-existence of something, only its existence.
The necessary qualification that science is limited in its ability to prove that phlogiston and scotophobin do not exist confirms the empirical problem. To prove that X does not exist, science must find solid, factual, empirical - rather than just theoretical - proof (evidence) that at least one instance of X does exist. In this manner, the moon has been proven to exist. There is no empirical proof that God exists.
House Member
Posts: 3,652 
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
May 3rd, 2006, 06:56 PM
Quoting
Might as well give that one up guys. From the sophistry I've seen so far, I strongly doubt you can convince me. There's a difference between believing there's no god and not believing there is a god. You're trying to pin the former on atheism, when the atheist position is the latter one.
Hence the atheist position is a statement of belief.
----------------Pastafarian-------------------------
Exactly.
That's what I've been telling Dexter Sinister.
----------------Pastafarian-------------------------
Exactly.
That's what I've been telling Dexter Sinister.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
May 3rd, 2006, 07:06 PM
I'd agree with that.
um
That it would be hard to convince you that is, and well that Atheism itself is also a belief, of sorts.
Quoting
Quoting
Might as well give that one up guys. From the sophistry I've seen so far, I strongly doubt you can convince me. There's a difference between believing there's no god and not believing there is a god. You're trying to pin the former on atheism, when the atheist position is the latter one.
Hence the atheist position is a statement of belief.
----------------Pastafarian-------------------------
Exactly.
That's what I've been telling Dexter Sinister.
----------------Pastafarian-------------------------
Exactly.
That's what I've been telling Dexter Sinister.
I'd agree with that.
um
That it would be hard to convince you that is, and well that Atheism itself is also a belief, of sorts.
House Member
Posts: 3,652
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
May 4th, 2006, 12:24 AM
Parse the word. It's the antonym of theism, the absence of theism, *no* belief in theism, not a belief in something other than theism.
Quoting
Aw Finder, not you too?
...that Atheism itself is also a belief, of sorts.
Parse the word. It's the antonym of theism, the absence of theism, *no* belief in theism, not a belief in something other than theism.
Gobsmacked
Posts: 5,132
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
May 4th, 2006, 03:07 PM
haha Dexter, this is getting quite interesting. I'm laughing with you, not at you. honest. lolll. let me get this straight now.
I believe that you believe that not believing is not a belief.
Correct?
soooo....... remind me - what do two negatives make?
just teasin - you clearly know what you do and don't believe. Tis not anyone's job to convince you that you believe what you consider to be the unbelievable.
haha Dexter, this is getting quite interesting. I'm laughing with you, not at you. honest. lolll. let me get this straight now.
I believe that you believe that not believing is not a belief.
Correct?
soooo....... remind me - what do two negatives make?
just teasin - you clearly know what you do and don't believe. Tis not anyone's job to convince you that you believe what you consider to be the unbelievable.
House Member
Posts: 3,652
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
May 4th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Ah, yes, got it now: Right, not believing is not a belief.
Quoting
I believe that believing requires a belief in believing the believable but not believing the not believable so not believing is not a belief in unbelievable... uh, where was I going with this?
I believe that you believe that not believing is not a belief.
Ah, yes, got it now: Right, not believing is not a belief.
jimmoyer
Posts: 5,040
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
May 9th, 2006, 11:47 PM
I think Zan did top the Dexter Sinister with the
double negative point.
Even two negatives multiplying become a positive.
Double negatives in grammar are a positive.
So with Atheism believing no God exists.
A belief it indubitably is.
I think Zan did top the Dexter Sinister with the
double negative point.
Even two negatives multiplying become a positive.
Double negatives in grammar are a positive.
So with Atheism believing no God exists.
A belief it indubitably is.
House Member
Posts: 3,652
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
May 10th, 2006, 09:03 AM
Quoting
Nope. Believing no god exists is not the same as not believing a god exists.
So with Atheism believing no God exists.
A belief it indubitably is.
A belief it indubitably is.
the clan of the claw
Posts: 1,976
May 10th, 2006, 09:18 AM
Quoting
which is different from believing there is a separate creator or that the universe is conscious yet not considering either of these scenarios to be "gods".
Quoting
Nope. Believing no god exists is not the same as not believing a god exists.
So with Atheism believing no God exists.
A belief it indubitably is.
A belief it indubitably is.
Council Member
Posts: 1,434
Location: Tula
Location: Tula
May 10th, 2006, 05:05 PM
I'd just like to say a few words about Atheism. And I know what I am talking about, living in a country that used to be officially Atheist just a short time ago I believe that Atheism is a by-product of christianity, because an intelligent person cannot help doubting that there is one man up there in the sky, who rules everything. It just doesn't make sense. No one ever saw that man, no one heard or touched him. No one can be sure that he exist. For all we really KNOW, he may be a myth. While on the other hand the forces of nature manifest themselves daily in our lives. And we cannot doubt their existance and their influence. And we all know that we have ancestors, after whom we take in different traits of our character. These are all tangible, rational, believable things.
I'd just like to say a few words about Atheism. And I know what I am talking about, living in a country that used to be officially Atheist just a short time ago
I believe that Atheism is a by-product of christianity, because an intelligent person cannot help doubting that there is one man up there in the sky, who rules everything. It just doesn't make sense. No one ever saw that man, no one heard or touched him. No one can be sure that he exist. For all we really KNOW, he may be a myth. While on the other hand the forces of nature manifest themselves daily in our lives. And we cannot doubt their existance and their influence. And we all know that we have ancestors, after whom we take in different traits of our character. These are all tangible, rational, believable things.
Council Member
Posts: 1,434
Location: Tula
Location: Tula
May 12th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Crusader, easiness is not a proper criterion in choosing your religion. Religion is not simply a set of abstract beliefs. If you were baptised or in some other way ritually introduced into a religion, your life evolves according to its rules, whether you understand it or not. And since everything in this world is based upon mutual profitability, it also applies to your religion. The right way is to help your religion and to support it in every way you can. And in return your religion ought to answer the questions that you have, to give you help in the moments of your personal crises, and to help you go up in life and become a happy and successful person. That is the way to choose a religion - by seeing what it gives you. So, like Dexter told you in his reply to your post, you've got to probe and challenge and to find what is yours. It is not going to be easy - it is very hard work. But I wish you perseverence and wisdom in your quest.
Crusader, easiness is not a proper criterion in choosing your religion. Religion is not simply a set of abstract beliefs. If you were baptised or in some other way ritually introduced into a religion, your life evolves according to its rules, whether you understand it or not. And since everything in this world is based upon mutual profitability, it also applies to your religion. The right way is to help your religion and to support it in every way you can. And in return your religion ought to answer the questions that you have, to give you help in the moments of your personal crises, and to help you go up in life and become a happy and successful person. That is the way to choose a religion - by seeing what it gives you. So, like Dexter told you in his reply to your post, you've got to probe and challenge and to find what is yours. It is not going to be easy - it is very hard work. But I wish you perseverence and wisdom in your quest.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,274
May 12th, 2006, 05:59 PM
I believe you have a choice.
how can I believe that? - on faith? - or because of my experience, because I believe I can choose? Do I know something about the human brain that tells me you have choice?
No, its the idea that we are of free will. Our ancient ancestors, at the dawn of this consciousness that only humans have, knew then that we had a choice now, that is surely our destiny, a goal and a success of the human race. Whereas our animal cousins have no choice, they are purely instinct and routine, humans have gained this ability. We can learn, and we have choice because we survive by changing our environment [we have no warm fur] instead of using only what is given. There are choices in this way of living. We are of FREE WILL.
That you would try to deny that your resposibilities lie in making the choices you do is utterly unacceptable. We cannot give it up now just because we are feeling overwhelmed.
I believe you have a choice.
how can I believe that? - on faith? - or because of my experience, because I believe I can choose? Do I know something about the human brain that tells me you have choice?
No, its the idea that we are of free will. Our ancient ancestors, at the dawn of this consciousness that only humans have, knew then that we had a choice now, that is surely our destiny, a goal and a success of the human race. Whereas our animal cousins have no choice, they are purely instinct and routine, humans have gained this ability. We can learn, and we have choice because we survive by changing our environment [we have no warm fur] instead of using only what is given. There are choices in this way of living. We are of FREE WILL.
That you would try to deny that your resposibilities lie in making the choices you do is utterly unacceptable. We cannot give it up now just because we are feeling overwhelmed.
