Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,960 
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
April 23rd, 2006, 11:39 AM
I just love all the discussion flowing here!!
Exploring our faith is an ongoing process throughout our lifetimes. I have traveled through a few different beliefs and am finding that regardless of what religion I am exposed to, I can find something of worth - and what I try to look for is the thread of commonality - anything that reminds us that we are all connected - sharing a journey that has many paths leading to the same destination.
I really don't think God cares what we call her. (lolll I like to shake up the gender of God occassionaly to remind myself that God is neither male nor female - but rather all of Us, all of It)
I also don't think that God cares which religion we anchor ourselves to, or whether we 'fly solo' in our quest to know faith.
One of the aspects of many religions that I have struggled with is the concept they have introduced that God is somehow separate - apart from us. The notion that we have to work our way into worthiness to become one with God has enabled so many religions to mold the 'expectations' of God into weapons of control. The image of an all powerful being who would rain some sort of horror (hell) upon us for not adhering to a prescribed set of rules completely defies the concept of God entirely, imo. God could no more separate from us than stop being God. I see it as the amputation of the most fundamental aspect of our humanity. Furthering the injury to our understanding, this Being has been depicted as a rather vengeful sort whose rules we must adhere to unquestioningly in order to guarantee our spiritual well being after death. This has been one of the most contentious, and imo, evil things ever done to mankind.
There are no rules that are malleable enough to accomdoate the condition of being human. Anything that declares a black or white, right or wrong way of being human is unGodly, imo... and it negates the need to explore more deeply the root causes of aberant or harmful behaviour that we humans are prone to engage in when we are diverted from healthy and loving conduct.
IMO, God could no more be separate from us than stop being God. What I love about viewing it this way is it allows me to remember that not only am I of the same substance, intention and will that we call God, but so are you, and you, and him, and her and them over there.... so my joys, your sorrows, their problems become Our joys, sorrows, problems...
In most religions, I believe the underlying Golden Rule of "do Unto others..." is the primary guideline for sharing our time here - and it could be the only sentence on the only page of any religious text, as far as I'm concerned - for it best honours the fact that we ARE all part of this divine creation - and what we do to another, we in fact do to ourselves.
There are religions that espouse this type of thinking, and these are the ones that most appeal to me, but I find that as soon as a label my beliefs, I feel boxed in - I claim the right to an evolving and ever growing understanding of my relationship with God.
One of my favorite quotes is: We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, rather we are spiritual beings having a human experience.
I just love all the discussion flowing here!!
Exploring our faith is an ongoing process throughout our lifetimes. I have traveled through a few different beliefs and am finding that regardless of what religion I am exposed to, I can find something of worth - and what I try to look for is the thread of commonality - anything that reminds us that we are all connected - sharing a journey that has many paths leading to the same destination.
I really don't think God cares what we call her. (lolll I like to shake up the gender of God occassionaly to remind myself that God is neither male nor female - but rather all of Us, all of It)
I also don't think that God cares which religion we anchor ourselves to, or whether we 'fly solo' in our quest to know faith.
One of the aspects of many religions that I have struggled with is the concept they have introduced that God is somehow separate - apart from us. The notion that we have to work our way into worthiness to become one with God has enabled so many religions to mold the 'expectations' of God into weapons of control. The image of an all powerful being who would rain some sort of horror (hell) upon us for not adhering to a prescribed set of rules completely defies the concept of God entirely, imo. God could no more separate from us than stop being God. I see it as the amputation of the most fundamental aspect of our humanity. Furthering the injury to our understanding, this Being has been depicted as a rather vengeful sort whose rules we must adhere to unquestioningly in order to guarantee our spiritual well being after death. This has been one of the most contentious, and imo, evil things ever done to mankind.
There are no rules that are malleable enough to accomdoate the condition of being human. Anything that declares a black or white, right or wrong way of being human is unGodly, imo... and it negates the need to explore more deeply the root causes of aberant or harmful behaviour that we humans are prone to engage in when we are diverted from healthy and loving conduct.
IMO, God could no more be separate from us than stop being God. What I love about viewing it this way is it allows me to remember that not only am I of the same substance, intention and will that we call God, but so are you, and you, and him, and her and them over there.... so my joys, your sorrows, their problems become Our joys, sorrows, problems...
In most religions, I believe the underlying Golden Rule of "do Unto others..." is the primary guideline for sharing our time here - and it could be the only sentence on the only page of any religious text, as far as I'm concerned - for it best honours the fact that we ARE all part of this divine creation - and what we do to another, we in fact do to ourselves.
There are religions that espouse this type of thinking, and these are the ones that most appeal to me, but I find that as soon as a label my beliefs, I feel boxed in - I claim the right to an evolving and ever growing understanding of my relationship with God.
One of my favorite quotes is: We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, rather we are spiritual beings having a human experience.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
April 23rd, 2006, 12:25 PM
I think mixing religion with reason is generally good. but I err on the side of reason more then I do with religion. Just because in the past I have allowed religion to cloud my judgment on moral issues which in our day and time do not fit in with how our society was in the past. None of the great books were writen by god, at best if you believe the myth behind a few of them they were writen by disciples, prophets and theologians. Some where edited by people long after the events in which you have to take in to account the things they edited out and kept in and why.
Reason tells me that I must tread lightly with religous doctrine and trust I know is right and hope that what is left to faith is right as well.
Crusader I hope you do not let the doctrine completely cloud your reason and judgment.
I think mixing religion with reason is generally good. but I err on the side of reason more then I do with religion. Just because in the past I have allowed religion to cloud my judgment on moral issues which in our day and time do not fit in with how our society was in the past. None of the great books were writen by god, at best if you believe the myth behind a few of them they were writen by disciples, prophets and theologians. Some where edited by people long after the events in which you have to take in to account the things they edited out and kept in and why.
Reason tells me that I must tread lightly with religous doctrine and trust I know is right and hope that what is left to faith is right as well.
Crusader I hope you do not let the doctrine completely cloud your reason and judgment.
Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,960
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
April 23rd, 2006, 02:24 PM
Tom Green Fan, might you consider the possibility God speaks to everybody? Every day. All the time. Gay people too. Even to Tom Green and his fans! yep, I'm forced to acknowledge that. lolll
Listen with your heart. When you close your ears and open your heart, it's not a whisper, it's a bellow.
The message doesn't have to arrive via a third person, or via words delivered by somebody else's thinking on a matter. I'm not suggesting one discount any or every scripture ever written. Gifts arrive in many different packages, and I believe that God will continue to use Her endless wealth of resources to assist us in receiving the message through whatever means will work. But there's no need to interpret somebody else's truth as necessarily yours. It's right there, inside all of us.
I have been gifted with a perspective on spirituality that says there are only two root emotions. Love and Fear. All other thoughts, emotions, actions can be traced back to one or the other. Of those two, which sources to the God you believe in, and which is not?
If it feels right, it IS right. Unless it causes harm to another. Then it's not God talking, it's fear drowning out the love of God.
From where does your belief about gay people and their rights to fully engage in the rights and gifts of being human come from? Love or Fear?
I invite you to really think about taht - examining our stance on issues using this perspective takes courage - it brought me to the freedom of releasing all judgements towards all people. Mostly. lolll. I AM still human, but this is an ideal I feel is worthy of pursuit.
You may surprise yourself with what conclusions you arrive at.
Tom Green Fan, might you consider the possibility God speaks to everybody? Every day. All the time. Gay people too. Even to Tom Green and his fans! yep, I'm forced to acknowledge that. lolll
Listen with your heart. When you close your ears and open your heart, it's not a whisper, it's a bellow.
The message doesn't have to arrive via a third person, or via words delivered by somebody else's thinking on a matter. I'm not suggesting one discount any or every scripture ever written. Gifts arrive in many different packages, and I believe that God will continue to use Her endless wealth of resources to assist us in receiving the message through whatever means will work. But there's no need to interpret somebody else's truth as necessarily yours. It's right there, inside all of us.
I have been gifted with a perspective on spirituality that says there are only two root emotions. Love and Fear. All other thoughts, emotions, actions can be traced back to one or the other. Of those two, which sources to the God you believe in, and which is not?
If it feels right, it IS right. Unless it causes harm to another. Then it's not God talking, it's fear drowning out the love of God.
From where does your belief about gay people and their rights to fully engage in the rights and gifts of being human come from? Love or Fear?
I invite you to really think about taht - examining our stance on issues using this perspective takes courage - it brought me to the freedom of releasing all judgements towards all people. Mostly. lolll. I AM still human, but this is an ideal I feel is worthy of pursuit.
You may surprise yourself with what conclusions you arrive at.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
April 23rd, 2006, 03:14 PM
Zan, I do not denny that the romanticism of what you just said has not crossed my mind, and the irrational almost always sounds a lot more poetic then the rational, but god does not speak to me every day, why would he (or she) do that? If God wished to communicate to his creation do you not believe that god in all his power and glory would do it in a more direct and rational way, rather then a petty, mysterious, infintile way which you and many others believe he speaks to us by?
I'm just wondering, please do not get offended or angry.
Zan, I do not denny that the romanticism of what you just said has not crossed my mind, and the irrational almost always sounds a lot more poetic then the rational, but god does not speak to me every day, why would he (or she) do that? If God wished to communicate to his creation do you not believe that god in all his power and glory would do it in a more direct and rational way, rather then a petty, mysterious, infintile way which you and many others believe he speaks to us by?
I'm just wondering, please do not get offended or angry.
Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,960
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
April 23rd, 2006, 04:48 PM
No offense taken at all Finder - a legitimate question I too have struggled with. And I also realize that my views are certainly not mainstream nor embraced by the masses. That's ok with me too. lolllll
When I say listen to your heart, it is precisely because I do not believe God is separate from me, nor I from It. I believe every every thing and non-thing (ideas, thoughts etc) is of God. Including us. I guess that's my definition of God. To me He/She/We are ALL OF IT.
Therefore my intuition, my senses, my emotions, my gut reactions are all the voices of God to me. Romantic? Crazy? Maybe, but yanno what? It's workin for me, and nothing I've tried on in my previous 40 odd years of searching for meaning has been able to do that for me. If this way doesn't work for you or anyone else, the beauty of it is there are many other paths from which to choose.
Mine is not a better way, it's merely another way.
My beliefs do not require me to convert you to my way of thinking, nor to condemn you for a choice you make that is different than mine. All ways lead to the same place, imo. Where else is there to go, after all? (For any who feel compelled to raise the issue of Hell, I have no faith in such ideas hahaha) The idea is simply to find YOUR way of knowing who and what God is to you, what YOUR relationship with God will be, and how you can best find significance in YOUR existence. To find some measure of satisfaction, fulfillment, purpose, connection within your life. Simple, no? lolllll
Even more simply, I suggest to you that every single time you enjoy something - whether it is a scent you attach a fond memeory to, or a spectacular sunset, or a delightfully wicked joke, or the feeling you get when you do something nice for somebody - even yourself, this is God (Love) speaking to you. Words are not necessary. Feelings are the language of the soul.
Conversely, when you feel bad, angry, sad, judgemental, guilty, etc... these are feelings associated with Not-God (Fear).... and btw, I do not equate these things with an entity such as the Devil. More aptly (to me) these feelings are associated with forgetting our own divinity and oneness with God.
But if this all sounds like hooey to you, then I also suggest you disregard it and move towards something that just plain makes sense to you first of all, and secondly helps you you KNOW what grounds you in faith.
No offense taken at all Finder - a legitimate question I too have struggled with. And I also realize that my views are certainly not mainstream nor embraced by the masses. That's ok with me too. lolllll
When I say listen to your heart, it is precisely because I do not believe God is separate from me, nor I from It. I believe every every thing and non-thing (ideas, thoughts etc) is of God. Including us. I guess that's my definition of God. To me He/She/We are ALL OF IT.
Therefore my intuition, my senses, my emotions, my gut reactions are all the voices of God to me. Romantic? Crazy? Maybe, but yanno what? It's workin for me, and nothing I've tried on in my previous 40 odd years of searching for meaning has been able to do that for me. If this way doesn't work for you or anyone else, the beauty of it is there are many other paths from which to choose.
Mine is not a better way, it's merely another way.
My beliefs do not require me to convert you to my way of thinking, nor to condemn you for a choice you make that is different than mine. All ways lead to the same place, imo. Where else is there to go, after all? (For any who feel compelled to raise the issue of Hell, I have no faith in such ideas hahaha) The idea is simply to find YOUR way of knowing who and what God is to you, what YOUR relationship with God will be, and how you can best find significance in YOUR existence. To find some measure of satisfaction, fulfillment, purpose, connection within your life. Simple, no? lolllll
Even more simply, I suggest to you that every single time you enjoy something - whether it is a scent you attach a fond memeory to, or a spectacular sunset, or a delightfully wicked joke, or the feeling you get when you do something nice for somebody - even yourself, this is God (Love) speaking to you. Words are not necessary. Feelings are the language of the soul.
Conversely, when you feel bad, angry, sad, judgemental, guilty, etc... these are feelings associated with Not-God (Fear).... and btw, I do not equate these things with an entity such as the Devil. More aptly (to me) these feelings are associated with forgetting our own divinity and oneness with God.
But if this all sounds like hooey to you, then I also suggest you disregard it and move towards something that just plain makes sense to you first of all, and secondly helps you you KNOW what grounds you in faith.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
April 23rd, 2006, 07:14 PM
I understand thanks for clearing it up on your views. I don't know when I once bought into pretty much the same romantic vision of god, I felt in peace and one fullfilled, but at the same time when I stdied everything and thought about it, it just didn't make sence to me. An all powerful god which made the universe and life using deceptive ways to talk to it's creation. When I studied the great thinkers of the enlightment, and the founding fathers of the USA and the French Republic I found that most of them were Deists. So I studied up on the thing which sounded odd. To me it made the most sence. A watch maker god in a sence. I do not denny that god created the universe and all life here on this world and all the planets in his own ways which I doubt we could ever comprehend in days years or whatever. But I can not see god how many Islamists, Christians and even Jewish people see him, petty, weak, jealous. It all sounds too human, too odd to me. I have too much respect for god to totally buy into any of those three doctines.
Nietzsche, said god is dead... he might not be dead but I don't think our petty prayers, or little wants or needs our lives are watched by god. Like the watch maker he made the world and left it to run. Perhaps coming by from time to time to fix things but thats about it.
I don't mean to be offending as I am sure some may get offended but thats not my goal. I guess I'm trying to relate my own beliefs and see if the Romanticism of a more angelic belief to that of a more pracmatic agnostic Deist belief I've found and makes sence to me, yet leaves you in a cold world, one where we have to care about each other a little more.
I understand thanks for clearing it up on your views. I don't know when I once bought into pretty much the same romantic vision of god, I felt in peace and one fullfilled, but at the same time when I stdied everything and thought about it, it just didn't make sence to me. An all powerful god which made the universe and life using deceptive ways to talk to it's creation. When I studied the great thinkers of the enlightment, and the founding fathers of the USA and the French Republic I found that most of them were Deists. So I studied up on the thing which sounded odd. To me it made the most sence. A watch maker god in a sence. I do not denny that god created the universe and all life here on this world and all the planets in his own ways which I doubt we could ever comprehend in days years or whatever. But I can not see god how many Islamists, Christians and even Jewish people see him, petty, weak, jealous. It all sounds too human, too odd to me. I have too much respect for god to totally buy into any of those three doctines.
Nietzsche, said god is dead... he might not be dead but I don't think our petty prayers, or little wants or needs our lives are watched by god. Like the watch maker he made the world and left it to run. Perhaps coming by from time to time to fix things but thats about it.
I don't mean to be offending as I am sure some may get offended but thats not my goal. I guess I'm trying to relate my own beliefs and see if the Romanticism of a more angelic belief to that of a more pracmatic agnostic Deist belief I've found and makes sence to me, yet leaves you in a cold world, one where we have to care about each other a little more.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
April 23rd, 2006, 07:31 PM
Whatever your choice, make sure your believe in One God who is merciful and compassionate. This is why Muslims start whatever they are doing with the term "In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful".
May peace be upon you.
Quoting
May God lead you into the right path. I am a a born Muslim. We believe in all religions and all prophets. The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity is "Son of God" concept. Jesus was a man like all other men sent to us with a message. Also I fail to understand the trilogy of Christians (God, Son, Holy Spirit).
Actually, I was already starting to explore Islam just before I registered this login name. I think I was angry at the fact that my reading of the Koran was/and is pulling me further towards it. If I should adopt Islam as my new faith, it could shake the family tremendously. We are both from very strict Christian families and community.
Whatever your choice, make sure your believe in One God who is merciful and compassionate. This is why Muslims start whatever they are doing with the term "In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful".
May peace be upon you.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,976
April 23rd, 2006, 07:34 PM
Finder wrote: Nietzsche, said god is dead... he might not be dead but I don't think our petty prayers, or little wants or needs our lives are watched by god. Like the watch maker he made the world and left it to run. Perhaps coming by from time to time to fix things but thats about it."
I agree with you Finder, I think there is a bigger picture but what that is I don't know?
I had a friend who had a Terminal Brain Tumor, and I asked him once "Do you ever ask why me" he said "No, why not me". He had a very strong sense of faith and as I watch him die a little every day his "Faith" never waivered. It was such a honor to have been his friend.
Finder wrote: Nietzsche, said god is dead... he might not be dead but I don't think our petty prayers, or little wants or needs our lives are watched by god. Like the watch maker he made the world and left it to run. Perhaps coming by from time to time to fix things but thats about it."
I agree with you Finder, I think there is a bigger picture but what that is I don't know?
I had a friend who had a Terminal Brain Tumor, and I asked him once "Do you ever ask why me" he said "No, why not me". He had a very strong sense of faith and as I watch him die a little every day his "Faith" never waivered. It was such a honor to have been his friend.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
April 23rd, 2006, 07:44 PM
Sassylassie
I know faith can help people as well as harm them. It sounds like your friend was extremely enlightend. Often those are the ones who flames go out far too soon and leave the rest of us scratching our heads. But your right, the bible, koran all basically taught me not to believe in the bible nor the koran because god/allah in both seemed to have multi personality disorder and suffered from something like manic depression or something. I can't believe our god is like, I just can't ignore things in the bible which make me think, and the more I think about things in the bible the more It just doesn't make sence at times. I'm not saying mircles I could accept those but how god acts and how he does it.
So for a long time I was a Christine Agnostic, but recently with my new found studing this year at UoT into the enlightenment I found deism, which seemed to me to explaine in a scientfic way how god is. It makes sence but at the same time makes the world seem... alone...
Well we can only hope that such wisdom and acceptance of the world which you friend had can come to us as well.
Sassylassie
I know faith can help people as well as harm them. It sounds like your friend was extremely enlightend. Often those are the ones who flames go out far too soon and leave the rest of us scratching our heads. But your right, the bible, koran all basically taught me not to believe in the bible nor the koran because god/allah in both seemed to have multi personality disorder and suffered from something like manic depression or something. I can't believe our god is like, I just can't ignore things in the bible which make me think, and the more I think about things in the bible the more It just doesn't make sence at times. I'm not saying mircles I could accept those but how god acts and how he does it.
So for a long time I was a Christine Agnostic, but recently with my new found studing this year at UoT into the enlightenment I found deism, which seemed to me to explaine in a scientfic way how god is. It makes sence but at the same time makes the world seem... alone...
Well we can only hope that such wisdom and acceptance of the world which you friend had can come to us as well.
Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,960
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
April 23rd, 2006, 08:49 PM
ahem... back to the topic at hand...
Finder, the answers never seem to come easily or quickly. There is a fair amount of acceptance and tolerance that is required in any faith, and this is the hard part. Things that are difficult to accept will test anyone's faith, no matter what doctrine they choose to believe in. As enticing as Deism sounds on some levels, I do not, cannot believe we've just been, well... abandoned for lack of a better word by God. If I had to settle for that, I'd just as soon pack it in. What then would be the point of any of it? Part of my faith is knowing that someday I will know. Although, it has been argued that the point is that there is no point. It's the journey that counts. Some days I'm inclined to agree with this too.
ahem... back to the topic at hand...
Finder, the answers never seem to come easily or quickly. There is a fair amount of acceptance and tolerance that is required in any faith, and this is the hard part. Things that are difficult to accept will test anyone's faith, no matter what doctrine they choose to believe in. As enticing as Deism sounds on some levels, I do not, cannot believe we've just been, well... abandoned for lack of a better word by God. If I had to settle for that, I'd just as soon pack it in. What then would be the point of any of it? Part of my faith is knowing that someday I will know. Although, it has been argued that the point is that there is no point. It's the journey that counts. Some days I'm inclined to agree with this too.
Member
Posts: 64
April 25th, 2006, 07:11 PM
quote="moghrabi"
May God lead you into the right path. I am a a born Muslim. We believe in all religions and all prophets. The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity is "Son of God" concept. Jesus was a man like all other men sent to us with a message. Also I fail to understand the trilogy of Christians (God, Son, Holy Spirit).
That's one of the things which attract me. Of all the times I read the Bible, I never really got how people have taken that part so literally. I may have been (still am?) a legalist, but certainly not a literalist. Such an interpretation of the bible just doesn't make sense. In fact, even before looking at the Koran, i already understood the Bible in the same way as the Koran does.
May peace be upon you.
peace
quote="moghrabi"
May God lead you into the right path. I am a a born Muslim. We believe in all religions and all prophets. The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity is "Son of God" concept. Jesus was a man like all other men sent to us with a message. Also I fail to understand the trilogy of Christians (God, Son, Holy Spirit).
That's one of the things which attract me. Of all the times I read the Bible, I never really got how people have taken that part so literally. I may have been (still am?) a legalist, but certainly not a literalist. Such an interpretation of the bible just doesn't make sense. In fact, even before looking at the Koran, i already understood the Bible in the same way as the Koran does.
May peace be upon you.
peace
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
April 25th, 2006, 08:17 PM
If you wish to understand more, cou could pm me. I used to be very active on this forum but no more due to personal insults to me. We can email and/or chat about any topic you wish. I am not trying to preach, as in Islam, religion is not by force but by heart and mind. Please drop me a note.
salam
If you wish to understand more, cou could pm me. I used to be very active on this forum but no more due to personal insults to me. We can email and/or chat about any topic you wish. I am not trying to preach, as in Islam, religion is not by force but by heart and mind. Please drop me a note.
salam
