Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,965 
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
December 2nd, 2007, 07:51 PM
Good luck at school Amber, nice to see you back amongst us.
Quoting warrior-won:
Assumptions can be very misleading - for example if I assumed from your posts today that you are a close-minded misogynist I could very possibly, maybe, theoretically be wrong.
Quoting jimshort19
Jimshort, I don't believe I've had the opportunity to welcome you here yet. Did I miss your intro thread? If so, my apologies, and welcome. Lovely post you just made.... and I concur - grace under fire is an admirable quality as Amber has just demonstrated for us.
Dear Amber,
Nice to meet you. You are a good sport - never lost it for a moment. I hope that you are not so fat as to be unrecognizable. If you look like you, the babe in the picture, that is wonderful, but if your beautiful face is grotesquely deformed, inflated and stretched, and you look like a Halloween pumpkin with lipstick, and you can't get up, and your feed bill is more than your rent, then you are given to gluttony for what?
I should follow Warrior to the next female victim now. That dude can really dish it out. But you can really take it! With good style! Good luck with your essay. You can nail it. We're happy to help.
Love, Jim
Nice to meet you. You are a good sport - never lost it for a moment. I hope that you are not so fat as to be unrecognizable. If you look like you, the babe in the picture, that is wonderful, but if your beautiful face is grotesquely deformed, inflated and stretched, and you look like a Halloween pumpkin with lipstick, and you can't get up, and your feed bill is more than your rent, then you are given to gluttony for what?
I should follow Warrior to the next female victim now. That dude can really dish it out. But you can really take it! With good style! Good luck with your essay. You can nail it. We're happy to help.
Love, Jim
Good luck at school Amber, nice to see you back amongst us.
Quoting warrior-won:
Quoting
Who's "we" ? I'm part of this little collective in this thread, and I can pretty safely say you don't speak for me. Quite the sweeping generalization though to suggest that only women who (in your opinion) don't fit any stereo-typed media ideal would find reason to be critical of the role media plays in this issue. You underestimate all of us who know ourselves to be beautiful and capable of critical thought.
I think we can make some safe assumptions here. I think we can safely assume that the author of the essay does not fit into the "ideal" that she accuses media of perpetuating. If she did, she would find little reason to be critical of media for their role in portraying "beauty". After all, she would be one of the relative few that media allegedly deems attractive.
Assumptions can be very misleading - for example if I assumed from your posts today that you are a close-minded misogynist I could very possibly, maybe, theoretically be wrong.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 07:57 PM
Why would you assume that Amber bought this magazine for anything other than making it the crux of her essay?
Quoting warrior_won
I think you missed the main idea: that the media steers women's focuses. Actually, the media generally steers people's focuses. The various forms of media are all designed for consumerism, even the "unbiased" news media.
I have just a couple of questions. Do you buy Glamour Magazine regularly? Do you subscribe to the magazine? If so, why do you buy it?
..............
Even cavewomen wore makeup. Women belonging to African tribes with little to no exposure to Western Society pierce their ears, noses, and paint their faces. They didn't learn this through media. So I think your logic is flawed, but that's ok. It's an English project, right?
..............
Even cavewomen wore makeup. Women belonging to African tribes with little to no exposure to Western Society pierce their ears, noses, and paint their faces. They didn't learn this through media. So I think your logic is flawed, but that's ok. It's an English project, right?
Why would you assume that Amber bought this magazine for anything other than making it the crux of her essay?
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:04 PM
Quoting AmberEyes
I disagree that we drive the media. The media reacts to what it THINKS we want to see. What drives the media is dollars, pure and simple. They promote what they think we want. They lobby us. They plant ideas in our heads. It is classical conditioning and we are Pavlov's dogs.
Eh, I have no problem with beauty. It's true that some people are naturally more attractive than others, my only concern was the unconvincing layout of the magazine. If they want to be pro-women, they should act like it. Putting pictures of skinny girls in a fat-chick article is rather hypocritical, don't you think? And no, they weren't making fun of their thinness, they were calling them fat. I read the thing without any idea of what to expect, and I was horribly offended by some of the things inside it. I'm a fat chick, and it made me feel like **** to see nothing but grossly underweight models. I feel sorry for people that don't see the truth of it.
One other thing: We as society drive the media. I'm no stranger to that idea. My point is, when there's a problem with society, it is our job to fix it. I see this obsession with being thin and young a problem, and I wan't to change it.
One other thing: We as society drive the media. I'm no stranger to that idea. My point is, when there's a problem with society, it is our job to fix it. I see this obsession with being thin and young a problem, and I wan't to change it.
Time Out
Posts: 415 
Videos: 3
Videos: 3
December 2nd, 2007, 08:06 PM
I need not remind you that a hypothesis is precisely that -- an assumption based on limited fact.
Quoting Zan
"We" is a pronoun used to include "all" who disagree with the premise of the author's essay. If you agree with the premise of her thesis, you would be logically excluded from the "we". Makes sense, right? Quoting warrior-won:
Who's "we" ?
Who's "we" ?
Quote:
Was it inferred that I was speaking for you? Or even for the "little collective" of folks participating in this immediate discussion?
I'm part of this little collective in this thread, and I can pretty safely say you don't speak for me.
Quote:
Really? What is the role that media plays in this issue? What is the issue? To me, the issue appears to be that women who do not fit the so-called "ideal" are somehow alienated from society and their peers by this evil empire dubbed commercial media. Am I missing the boat here? Or am I reading her posts a little too literally?
Quite the sweeping generalization though to suggest that only women who (in your opinion) don't fit any stereo-typed media ideal would find reason to be critical of the role media plays in this issue.
Quote:
And that's when hypocrisy set in. You take exception to my use of the word "we" than two short paragraphs later you introduce "all of us" to the argument. For the record, I do not believe myself groteque, nor do I believe myself incapable of critical thought. Yet, I am in almost total disagreement with the argument offered by the esteemed forum member.
You underestimate all of us who know ourselves to be beautiful and capable of critical thought.
Quote:
Assumptions are never misleading. They're either accurate or inaccurate. Assumptions, nevertheless, are a valid means for presenting an argument where little fact is known or can be known. I think my assumption is not far off the mark when viewed in the context for which the esteemed member has presented her hypothesis.
Assumptions can be very misleading - for example if I assumed from your posts today that you are a close-minded misogynist I could very possibly, maybe, theoretically be wrong.
I need not remind you that a hypothesis is precisely that -- an assumption based on limited fact.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:07 PM
Quoting AmberEyes
Now you have it.
I'm aware of it, and I only wish I had had more time to discuss that problem as well. It's disgusting how much the media effects us all. I'm so thankful my hubby can see through the projections of "male masculinity." I, like him, do my best to ensure my loved ones are happy and healthy. There are dangers no matter what gender, age or ethnicity you are. I've seen far too many friends suffer with body image, men and women alike.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:10 PM
Quoting Zan
Quite right, Zan. To reiterate something I have been saying for years, we serve society. Sociteies were developed to serve people. It has gone awry and as a result, our societies are sick. We are sick.
You are so right Amber, it does indeed lie within our own responsibility to create a new perspective as a society.
There are a number of ways which we could do that. What products we buy for starters. Money unfortunately seems to speak the loudest, and the buying power we exert is what will likely drive the changes in many areas - media and advertising included. As long as we succumb to the temptation to purchase products that claim to make us look younger, slimmer, sexier, we will continue to fuel the machine that promotes these things.
Another thing we need to do is be aware of is what messages we're sending our kids - not just with the products we buy and use, but what we're allowing them to use their buying power for. What sorts of toys and games are they playing with? What habits and beliefs are we (unwittingly?) instilling that will frame future choices they make as adults?
Check out the graphics and characters on almost any computer game - on or off line. In real life, the women would for the most part, be freaks of nature. This is where the kids today are spending a good deal of their money, and where many parents will plonk down their hard earned cash to put something under the tree for their kids.
We really do need to use more thought in considering just how much power we as individuals have to re-define the values within our society. Myself included, btw.
There are a number of ways which we could do that. What products we buy for starters. Money unfortunately seems to speak the loudest, and the buying power we exert is what will likely drive the changes in many areas - media and advertising included. As long as we succumb to the temptation to purchase products that claim to make us look younger, slimmer, sexier, we will continue to fuel the machine that promotes these things.
Another thing we need to do is be aware of is what messages we're sending our kids - not just with the products we buy and use, but what we're allowing them to use their buying power for. What sorts of toys and games are they playing with? What habits and beliefs are we (unwittingly?) instilling that will frame future choices they make as adults?
Check out the graphics and characters on almost any computer game - on or off line. In real life, the women would for the most part, be freaks of nature. This is where the kids today are spending a good deal of their money, and where many parents will plonk down their hard earned cash to put something under the tree for their kids.
We really do need to use more thought in considering just how much power we as individuals have to re-define the values within our society. Myself included, btw.
Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,965
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
December 2nd, 2007, 08:10 PM
Quoting L Gilbert
I think it's to some degree, a mutually dysfunctional relationship.... we do allow ourselves to be lead to the trough via the advertising, but I still think that if we exercise some awareness of what our buying power is perpetuating, we do have the power to change the course of the media machine.
I disagree that we drive the media. The media reacts to what it THINKS we want to see. What drives the media is dollars, pure and simple. They promote what they think we want. They lobby us. They plant ideas in our heads. It is classical conditioning and we are Pavlov's dogs.
Time Out
Posts: 415
Videos: 3
Videos: 3
December 2nd, 2007, 08:12 PM
Quoting L Gilbert
I didn't miss the main idea, I simply hold that the premise is invalid. I attempted to illustrate that by pointing out that women living in cultures with little or no media exposure, endure the same pressures as far as attracting a mate is concerned. My argument was that women's focuses are steered not by media, as can be demonstrated, but by something little more biological.
I think you missed the main idea: that the media steers women's focuses. Actually, the media generally steers people's focuses. The various forms of media are all designed for consumerism, even the "unbiased" news media.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:20 PM
BTW, "the medium is the message" was McLuhan's comment.
Quoting jimshort19
Perhaps I missed something here. Not quite sure of what context you have in mind when referrring to style, spelling, grammar, etc. has to do with your comment that the medium is the message. This might be of interest to some; http://individual.utoronto.ca/markfe...themessage.htm
..........
When it comes to English per se the medium is the message. Your form or style, spelling and grammar, are all going to be criticized more than the intellectual content. You will soon find out what your teacher wants, and then you can feed it to her. Until then, it is hard to say whether you have a bitter and pointless rant, spell offensively, repeat yourself, or have excessively long paragraphs. Your teacher may pick on your punctuation.
........
When it comes to English per se the medium is the message. Your form or style, spelling and grammar, are all going to be criticized more than the intellectual content. You will soon find out what your teacher wants, and then you can feed it to her. Until then, it is hard to say whether you have a bitter and pointless rant, spell offensively, repeat yourself, or have excessively long paragraphs. Your teacher may pick on your punctuation.
........
BTW, "the medium is the message" was McLuhan's comment.
Moderator
Posts: 798
December 2nd, 2007, 08:27 PM
Looking back in hooman history, it was, for a time, a large woman who commanded the attention of the males. Why? Because a large woman presented the appearance of wealth due to her never having to want for food. These days women are raised to fear food because of the superficial attitude instilled in people by the media.
Quoting warrior_won
Biologically speaking, it is predominantly the male of a species that fights for a woman's attention as can be seen by the myriad of male creatures which are more colourfully adorned than the female of the species.
I didn't miss the main idea, I simply hold that the premise is invalid. I attempted to illustrate that by pointing out that women living in cultures with little or no media exposure, endure the same pressures as far as attracting a mate is concerned. My argument was that women's focuses are steered not by media, as can be demonstrated, but by something little more biological.
Looking back in hooman history, it was, for a time, a large woman who commanded the attention of the males. Why? Because a large woman presented the appearance of wealth due to her never having to want for food. These days women are raised to fear food because of the superficial attitude instilled in people by the media.
Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,965
Location: Edmonton AB
Location: Edmonton AB
December 2nd, 2007, 08:38 PM
Quoting warrior_won
ummm no, doesn't make sense, you did not define who you were referring to with the 'we' and therefore it was safe to assume you were speaking for the group present within the discussion. I wanted to make it clear you were not speaking for me. (Can I now assume we're got that clear?)
"We" is a pronoun used to include "all" who disagree with the premise of the author's essay. If you agree with the premise of her thesis, you would be logically excluded from the "we". Makes sense, right?
Quoting warrior_won
As I just said, yes it was inferred.
Was it inferred that I was speaking for you? Or even for the "little collective" of folks participating in this immediate discussion?
Quoting warrior_won
I don't know what boat you're on, but yes I do think you're missing something here. I can only speak from personal experience on this one aspect of your theory: I have never considered myself on the outside looking in when it comes to beauty, nor have I ever considered myself to be one of those who fit that elusive ideal (thank gawd!) and yet I do find the media plays a huge role in demonstrating for me what standard - attainable or not - that somebody, somewhere has decided is what my goal as a woman should be. This certainly hasn't caused me to feel alienated from society - but it has caused me to be diligent in teaching both my daughter and my son to beware of allowing the media to do their thinking for them, and to look deeper than physical looks before deciding what is beautiful in another.
Really? What is the role that media plays in this issue? What is the issue? To me, the issue appears to be that women who do not fit the so-called "ideal" are somehow alienated from society and their peers by this evil empire dubbed commercial media. Am I missing the boat here? Or am I reading her posts a little too literally?
Quoting warrior_won
You've manipulated my words with the above quote. What I said was: "You underestimate all of us who know ourselves to be beautiful and capable of critical thought". How much more clearly could I have defined which "we" I was referring to?
And that's when hypocrisy set in. You take exception to my use of the word "we" than two short paragraphs later you introduce "all of us" to the argument. For the record, I do not believe myself groteque, nor do I believe myself incapable of critical thought. Yet, I am in almost total disagreement with the argument offered by the esteemed forum member.
Quoting warrior_won
I disagree with both statements there. Assumptions should at least be based on something that more than a rare few believe before being introduced as valid within a discussion of any kind. I also think your assumption is terribly far off the mark, and motivated more by a generalized and self-admitted dislike of women than anything truly valid.
Assumptions are never misleading. They're either accurate or inaccurate. Assumptions, nevertheless, are a valid means for presenting an argument where little fact is known or can be known. I think my assumption is not far off the mark when viewed in the context for which the esteemed member has presented her hypothesis.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:49 PM
Thank you so much for the laugh.
Perhaps the hormonally driven teen is like that, but grown up men have a little bit broader horizons than just sex. At least this 53 year old does.
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.............
Have a nice day.
Quoting warrior_won
You seem to be using a specific form of media in generalized terms. Perhaps you could benefit by the definition of the word "media": take it from an expert on the subject of "media"; http://deoxy.org/media/McLuhan
Therein lies the problem. I won't do the research; I don't care. I don't believe that media is responsible for low self-esteem among females. The reason I don't believe this is because females of all cultures generally suffer from low self-esteem and pressure to be beautiful in order to attract a mate. Like I said previously, this is also true in cultures where media has no role. So the influence comes from somewhere else.
Quote:
lmao The media is constantly pressuring people in general to buy this, think that, etc. So you are basically saying that women alone are not being steered by the media to buy things? That they are not being steered to thinking certain ways?
That depends on the culture. Different cultures have differing ideas on what is and is not beautiful. So you're right in a sense. It's not just about makeup. It's about being beautiful. Where you're wrong, is in your assertion that media is at fault for the pressure applied to women. Like I said, women who live in cultures without media receive the same pressure.
Thank you so much for the laugh.
Quote:
lmao Yes of course. Men have no brains and are limited to one emotion, lust.
So where does the pressure come from if not from media? Is it from men? Is it men that decide what is or isn't beautiful? Nope! Men are just horndogs. They just want to screw. And they'll screw anything that is available -- beautiful or otherwise.
Perhaps the hormonally driven teen is like that, but grown up men have a little bit broader horizons than just sex. At least this 53 year old does.Quote:
That sounds like a personal issue and you are being highly subjective and I might say, projecting your own views as that of every man.
The simple fact of the matter is that men have only two choices: Take what's available or settle for nothing. I personally settle for nothing; I'm not happy with what's available. So we can eliminate men as the culprit.
Quote:
Only in your mind.
Men are out. Media is out.
Quote:
Ah, finally a little factual info from you. Yes, part of the pressure does come from other women. But that does not negate the fact that media and men are also part of the problem.
What's left? Ah, other women! It's a jungle out there. The pressure comes from other women. The spirit of competition is alive and well in the mating game. So I really feel no sympathy for women who whine about how they're expected to be beautiful. Besides, women are getting fatter and fatter by the day. Have you noticed the number of fat assed hags in your town lately? Pretty funny, huh?
Quote:
Yes, women have no brains. Just bodies.
Women have what some refer to as "pussy power". It's really the only power women have.
Quote:
Yes there are no powerful older and ugly women.
If men want you in their bed, you have power over men. As you get older, your pussy power fades. So it's not about feeling less beautiful. You hit the nail on the head when you alluded to cheating and abuse as being fears of aging females. And I'm sure that in some instances, the fears become realities. So it's more about becoming powerless.
Quote:
lol I agree. But you have done that exact same thing: let me refresh your memory and quote you; "Men are just horndogs. They just want to screw". Also you've done nothing but paint women all with the same brush. You really are a comical little fella.
And to generally paint all men with the same brush is absurd.
Quote:
I am beginning to feel sorry for you. Misogyny seems to drive your thoughts.
Why do you suppose that is? Is it because of media? Is it because of men? No! It's because of women. Women choose to gain their place in society through their tits and their twat. As long as women identify themselves as sex objects, they will be forever cast in that role. Sucks, I know, but you did it to yourselves. C'est la vie, as they say in the olde country.
.....
Quote:
Ahah! I knew it, a definite, dyed-in-the-wool misogynist. No bias in your views. lmao
Girls are taught by other girls. Although that's slowly changing. I see a lot of girls now that really don't give a crap about how men or other girls perceive them. But this is coming from a guy who typically views females as losers.
Quote:
Ahah!! Resorting to the ad hominem attack as an argument. tsk tsk.
So in other words, you became a s-l-u-t and you wondered why people treated you like a s-l-u-t. You probably needed a mirror for something other than applying makeup. You needed to see yourself and ask yourself why you were portraying yourself as a promiscuous s-l-u-t.
.............
Quote:
Laughable
Makeup is not a part of the problem at all. The problem is not that women apply makeup to their faces. The problem is not that women have eating disorders. The problem is not that women age or are expected to be attractive. The problem is that women make the conscious choice to sell themselves as s-l-u-t-s. If that's the image you present, that's the image people expect. Remember, if all women refused to get breast implants... If all women refused to wear makeup... If all women refused to be thin... If all women refused to wear suggestive garments... Men would still find them attractive enough to f-u-c-k, date, and marry. You can't blame men or media for a problem that is one of women's own creation. And it is women, and women alone, who perpetuate the problem.
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It's only BS to you.
I apologize for the vulgarity in this reply, but I'm just sick and tired of listening to the feminist bullcrap that has become so much of my daily life.
Have a nice day.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:53 PM
Quoting Zan
Yes we do. If we all actually pointed out to the media that what they think we want and need is wrong and they should actually pay closer attention to what we DO want and need, it'd be a start. Unfortunately we all just won't do that because we are apathetic, lazy, etc. So it is up to a few to speak for the masses. And this just feeds the problem all over again.
I think it's to some degree, a mutually dysfunctional relationship.... we do allow ourselves to be lead to the trough via the advertising, but I still think that if we exercise some awareness of what our buying power is perpetuating, we do have the power to change the course of the media machine.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
December 2nd, 2007, 08:55 PM
Quoting warrior_won
You really have no idea what media is, do you? Yet you ASSUME that you do and pontificate about it profusely. You are funny.
I didn't miss the main idea, I simply hold that the premise is invalid. I attempted to illustrate that by pointing out that women living in cultures with little or no media exposure, endure the same pressures as far as attracting a mate is concerned. My argument was that women's focuses are steered not by media, as can be demonstrated, but by something little more biological.
December 2nd, 2007, 09:00 PM
I'm a large middle aged woman. Im cool with that. I buy magazines like "Scientific American". I do wax my chin though, middle age brings itchy hairs. I don't do it to be more appealing. I do it to be more comfortable.
And just for the sake of saying it, if warrior was my son I'd slap him upside the head.
Now where was I. oh yes, body image. There comes a point in life where you assess your overal value. What you have been taught by your family, by society, and by advertising will play a role in that, but as an adult with a brain you have the OPTION of discarding the negatives.
My mother put me on a diet at age 4. I stayed on it through high school and eventually became anorexic. She did it because HER mother did the same to her--and her mother did it because in the 40's and early 50's glamour was everything. Im pleased to say that my girls are not only a healthy weight, but are also comfortable in thier bodies.
I would like to lose 100 pounds for health reasons. I don't wear makeup unless it is a very special occasion. I have comfortable clothes and shoes without those crazy heels. Ive never had a problem getting laid. Ever. Even when I was larger than I am now.
I worry about things like the economy, the household things, whether my kids are getting the education they should. Beauty et al has no place in my mind. Ive done my assessment and discovered Im just fine being me. THAT is what we need to be teaching our children.
Thus ends my menopausal rant for this evening.
I'm a large middle aged woman. Im cool with that. I buy magazines like "Scientific American". I do wax my chin though, middle age brings itchy hairs. I don't do it to be more appealing. I do it to be more comfortable.
And just for the sake of saying it, if warrior was my son I'd slap him upside the head.
Now where was I. oh yes, body image. There comes a point in life where you assess your overal value. What you have been taught by your family, by society, and by advertising will play a role in that, but as an adult with a brain you have the OPTION of discarding the negatives.
My mother put me on a diet at age 4. I stayed on it through high school and eventually became anorexic. She did it because HER mother did the same to her--and her mother did it because in the 40's and early 50's glamour was everything. Im pleased to say that my girls are not only a healthy weight, but are also comfortable in thier bodies.
I would like to lose 100 pounds for health reasons. I don't wear makeup unless it is a very special occasion. I have comfortable clothes and shoes without those crazy heels. Ive never had a problem getting laid. Ever. Even when I was larger than I am now.
I worry about things like the economy, the household things, whether my kids are getting the education they should. Beauty et al has no place in my mind. Ive done my assessment and discovered Im just fine being me. THAT is what we need to be teaching our children.
Thus ends my menopausal rant for this evening.
