Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jesus:the rock of our salvation

herald

#1Jun 30th, 2010

"Behold I stand before thee there upon the Rock of Horeb; and thou shalt smite the Rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel." Ex 17:6 (Jesus was smitten)

"And it shall come to pass, while My glory passes by, that I will put thee in the cleft of the Rock, and will cover thee with My hand as I pass by." Ex 33:22.

"And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod, he smote the Rock twice: and the water came our abundantly, and the congregation drank and the beasts also." Num 20:11.

"He is the Rock, His work is perfect, a God of Truth for all His ways are judgment: a God of Truth without iniquity (lawlessness), just and right is He." Deut 32:4.

"But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation." Deut 32:15.

"Of the Rock that begat thee, thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee." Deut 32:18.

"How should one chase a thousand and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up. For their Rock is not our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges." Deut 32:30,31.

"There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any Rock like our God." 1 Sam 2:2.

"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke unto me, He that rules over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God." 2 Sam 23:3.

"I will love Thee, O Lord my strength. The Lord is my Rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in Whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower." Ps 18:1,2.

"For Who is our God save the Lord? Or Who is our Rock save our God?" Ps 18:31.

"The Lord lives and blessed be the Rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted." Ps 18:46.

"Unto Thee will I cry, O Lord my Rock: be Thou not silent to me: lest if Thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down to the pit." Ps 28:1.

"He shall cry unto me, Thou art my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation." Ps 89:26.

"But the Lord is my defense; and my God is the Rock of my refuge." Ps 94:22.

"O come let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the Rock of our salvation." Ps 95:1.

"The pride of thy heart has deceived you, thou that dwells in the cleft of the Rock, whose habitation is high; that says in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?" Ob 3.

"AND DID ALL DRINK THE SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK: FOR THEY DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK WHICH FOLLOWED THEM: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST." 1 Cor 10:4.

gerryh

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jun 30th, 2010

This IS the proper place for Herald to post these topics. If you don`t want to read what he has to post, THEN STAY OUT OF THE Spirtituality subforum.

Last edited by Ron in Regina; Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:15 PM..Reason: I agree. Just cleaning it up.

Cliffy

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jun 30th, 2010

Well Gerry, this is supposed to be a discussion, but the guy just posts a bunch of unconnected biblical verses and buggers off, only to return occasionally to tell us we will all burn in a lake of fire if we don't believe his version of the bible. Perhaps if he stuck around to discuss what the point of his posts are, he would not get so much flack. And unfortunately, his threads show up[ in the general topics of the day, so we can't miss them. Besides, I don't appreciate anybody who tells people they are going to burn even if I know he is full of it. He makes it personal. So he can expect people to respond in a personal manner.

Last edited by Ron in Regina; Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:17 PM..

gerryh

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jun 30th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

This IS the proper place for Herald to post these topics. If you don`t want to read what he has to post, THEN STAY OUT OF THE Spirtituality subforum.

bump

Scott Free

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

gerryh

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

This IS the proper place for Herald to post these topics. If you don`t want to read what he has to post, THEN STAY OUT OF THE Spirtituality subforum.

bump

Scott Free

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Last edited by Scott Free; Jul 1st, 2010 at 01:40 AM..Reason: wanted to

Ron in Regina

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

If "herald" doesn't mind....this might be a great opportunity to discuss the
motivation of some to enter the "Christian Discussion" SubForum, or
others like it, only to mock and ridicule.

I'd personally appreciate an effort at a civil discussion on this topic, as
we all might learn something.

Dexter Sinister

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Yeah, we might learn something, but not from herald. He just posts bible verses, sometimes adds a notice that we're all going to burn in Hell if we don't buy his message, and disappears. He's not interested in discussion, just in making threatening announcements. That justifiably draws mockery and ridicule.

Stretch

#10

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

hey herald, ever heard of vishnu? he/she/it is an indian diety, his/her/its story reads the same as jc s. if you arent so blinded and wish to do some research you'll find the only diff 'tween the 2 is that vishnu did all his/her/its stuff 1200 yrs b4 jc was s'psedly born.........just a coincedence mate, nothing t' worry about...........

Scott Free

#11

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Well, I mock and ridicule because I know how dangerous this illness is. Levity and derision might steer someone away from it. It is a sickness that preys on the weak and vulnerable.

Cliffy

#12 Top Rated Post

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Like I said Ron, there is no room for discussion here. Herald makes statements as if fact and then disappears. He is preaching and very much acts like a spammer on this topic. I have studied comparative religions and have had discussions on these topics with hundreds of people. Many are like the poster that Scott Free posted with the woman with her fingers in her ears but some are willing to discuss, have at least a curiosity what others think. Unless we are willing to accept that others have a right to their beliefs without condemning them to hell for not believing as you do, there will always be war and conflict. People who leave no room for other thoughts and beliefs are hate mongers.

People on here ridicule right, left, liberal, conservative, democrats and republicans but it is taboo ridicule anybody who thinks they are the only ones who know god and what he expects of us. I would love to discuss things like, if someone has an insight or inspiration concerning religious or spiritual matters, those revelations are only relevant to them and not necessarily the rest of humanity. Religions are dangerous because they are so rigid. (People like Karrie, for example, are rare, at least in my experience, for being open minded within her beliefs.) That rigidity causes people to shoot abortion doctors and blow themselves up in market places. If there is no room for discussion, then sometime people think there is only ridicule left to try to get them to see how ridiculous they are for thinking they are the only ones who have the truth.

Scott Free

#13

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

If there is no room for discussion, then sometime people think there is only ridicule left to try to get them to see how ridiculous they are for thinking they are the only ones who have the truth.

Most dogmatists are too far gone to recover but it is the people reading the posts and finding comfort in these silly imaginings that I would like to steer away.

I would add that ridicule did help me get over it. I'm still a dogmatist and always will be but I can counter it (to some extent) now with new tools.

Cliffy

#14

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free

Most dogmatists are too far gone to recover but it is the people reading the posts and finding comfort in these silly imaginings that I would like to steer away.

I would add that ridicule did help me get over it. I'm still a dogmatist and always will be but I can counter it (to some extent) now with new tools.

Dogma certainly is a condition that is difficult to overcome. We need all the tools we can gather. An ex-catholic once told me that I was the first person he met that gave him hope that there was life after Catholicism, having survived it myself. It has taken me almost forty years of studying comparative religions, spiritual paths, philosophies, metaphysics, quantum physics, psychology and para-psychology to feel comfortable with being me in a world where it is taboo to even know who you are.

Scott Free

#15

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Dogma certainly is a condition that is difficult to overcome. We need all the tools we can gather. An ex-catholic once told me that I was the first person he met that gave him hope that there was life after Catholicism, having survived it myself. It has taken me almost forty years of studying comparative religions, spiritual paths, philosophies, metaphysics, quantum physics, psychology and para-psychology to feel comfortable with being me in a world where it is taboo to even know who you are.

Everything I've read said there is no life outside of it. In my case I was raised with it and my entire character has been mauled by it. I have no "self" to find because the abuse started too early. I have no "frame of orientation" as Erich Fromm calls it, that is, a social identity - it was hollowed out - that is the thing that gives us humans meaning. I have non.

I know that every religious person isn't a dogmatist.

I recommend reading; -- by Judy J. Johnson. Not that I think you're a dogmatist but it might further your journey. The first chapters of the book shocked me. It described my childhood and then described me perfectly. I had no idea I was a dogmatist but in retrospect it's obvious.

Anyway, sorry to go on, it's just religion isn't a game and is a dangerous venom. I hate and despise it for what it has done to me and if I could save even one child from such a fate I would hurt everyone's feelings on the entire damn planet.

Dr. Johnson says in her book that no one can understand that hasn't gone through it. She says it is unimaginable and from the way people talk I believe she is right.

SirJosephPorter

#16

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Stretch

hey herald, ever heard of vishnu? he/she/it is an indian diety, his/her/its story reads the same as jc s. if you arent so blinded and wish to do some research you'll find the only diff 'tween the 2 is that vishnu did all his/her/its stuff 1200 yrs b4 jc was s'psedly born.........just a coincedence mate, nothing t' worry about...........

I remember reading somewhere, somebody made an interesting connection between Vishnu and Jesus. For one, both represent the second deity in the Trinity (Hindu Trinity; Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh and Christian Trinity; Father, Son, Holy Ghost).

Now, Jesus is an anglicized version of the original name, Yeshu. But Yeshu is also a comparatively recent form, the name before Yeshu was Yeshiva.

Apparently Vishnu has literally a thousand names, and one of the names is Keshava. There is a great deal of similarity between Keshava and Yeshiva. A coincidence? Who knows?

But many people have made the connection between Jesus and Vishnu. It is clear that Christianity has borrowed freely form Hinduism and from Zoroastrianism. It may be that they also borrowed Vishnu from Hinduism and turned him into Jesus.

herald

#17

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

you are fools!!!!

lone wolf

#18

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Great discussion point!

Cliffy

#19

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free

Everything I've read said there is no life outside of it. In my case I was raised with it and my entire character has been mauled by it. I have no "self" to find because the abuse started too early. I have no "frame of orientation" as Erich Fromm calls it, that is, a social identity - it was hollowed out - that is the thing that gives us humans meaning. I have non.

Well Scott, there is life after catholicism. I know a lot of aboriginal people who went through the torture and torment of residential schools who have regained their life. I once read a book called Losing Your Mind. It was about losing the socially conditioned mind to discover who you really are. The book that started me on my journey was Allan Watts' - The Book [on the Taboo against knowing who you are]. I don't believe anybody is lost or without their own character. It may feel like that sometimes, but everyone has a path.

The journey may begin with rejection, as was my case, but there is far more to life, human psychology and the energy force that animates out bodies and minds. It is dogma that kills the spirit but that can be resurrected. The story of Jesus can make sense if it is viewed as a metaphor for life. Taken literally it is just so much nonsense. Not that I recommend trying to figure out what it means to you, I just use it as an example. If you seek YOUR truth, you will find it. Life will show you the way but first you need to get over your anger and frustration. They keep you from appreciating life to its fullest.

I spent ten years living in the forest with the wild beasts to get past my anger and come to a place where life began to make sense (although what we call society or civilization is completely insane to me. It is just as dogmatic as religion.) I think that we just have to become sick and tired of being sick and tired to finally be motivated to get off our asses to go looking for answers that make sense to us personally.

JLM

#20

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

I spent ten years living in the forest with the wild beasts to get past my anger and come to a place where life began to make sense (although what we call society or civilization is completely insane to me. It is just as dogmatic as religion.) I think that we just have to become sick and tired of being sick and tired to finally be motivated to get off our asses to go looking for answers that make sense to us personally.

I think you are onto something there, Cliff. One thing I might add - probably the first thing one should do on their route to sanity is to get those frickin' "Joneses" out of their heads. THAT and the idiot box are the two greatest enemies of mankind today. Happy Canada Day.

taxslave

#21

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by herald

you are fools!!!!

No, we simply have the ability to think for ourselves and question that which is absurd or false.
What makes you think that yours is the one true religion out of the 5000 or so around. Are all the others wrong or is it you that is wrong.
For that matter can you even prove that there is such a thing as god?
In any event being a good person does not require one to proclaim fealty to any being real or otherwise.
Since a fair number of those that claim to represent your god sexually abuse little kids I think I will just stay agnostic.

Cliffy

#22

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

I think you are onto something there, Cliff. One thing I might add - probably the first thing one should do on their route to sanity is to get those frickin' "Joneses" out of their heads. THAT and the idiot box are the two greatest enemies of mankind today. Happy Canada Day.

Good morning and Happy Canada Day, to you too. I'm just debating if I am going to the Fire Departments Pancake Breakfast. I really love greasy sausages but they don't like me.

Scott Free

#23

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Well Scott, there is life after catholicism. I know a lot of aboriginal people who went through the torture and torment of residential schools who have regained their life. I once read a book called Losing Your Mind. It was about losing the socially conditioned mind to discover who you really are. The book that started me on my journey was Allan Watts' - The Book [on the Taboo against knowing who you are]. I don't believe anybody is lost or without their own character. It may feel like that sometimes, but everyone has a path.
The journey may begin with rejection, as was my case, but there is far more to life, human psychology and the energy force that animates out bodies and minds. It is dogma that kills the spirit but that can be resurrected. The story of Jesus can make sense if it is viewed as a metaphor for life. Taken literally it is just so much nonsense. Not that I recommend trying to figure out what it means to you, I just use it as an example. If you seek YOUR truth, you will find it. Life will show you the way but first you need to get over your anger and frustration. They keep you from appreciating life to its fullest.
I spent ten years living in the forest with the wild beasts to get past my anger and come to a place where life began to make sense (although what we call society or civilization is completely insane to me. It is just as dogmatic as religion.) I think that we just have to become sick and tired of being sick and tired...
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

Sure a person can find a place for themselves in society but they cannot rebuild early childhood development. Residential school was horrific from anything I can tell but regardless children started attending at a late enough age that they did still have a basic foundation from which to work. Also it wasn't their parents who created anxiety for them and undermined their dignity. The whole point of residential school was that the children knew there was somewhere else for them.

The most difficult thing to guard against is a self serving bias which prevents a person from hearing evidence (or testimony) contrary to what they want to believe and focusing on that which seems to reinforce their own convictions. So I'll agree that maybe you're right but I think, especially based on your history as you explained it, that you're still playing games and your journey is at a beginning not an end. Allen Watts never did figure it out IMO. He was a prisoner of conviction trying elegantly to rationalize his emotions. I'll admit that all I know of the man is what he wrote so my opinion is based on that.

L Gilbert

#24

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by herald

"Behold I stand before thee there upon the Rock of Horeb; and thou shalt smite the Rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel." Ex 17:6 (Jesus was smitten)

"And it shall come to pass, while My glory passes by, that I will put thee in the cleft of the Rock, and will cover thee with My hand as I pass by." Ex 33:22.

"And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod, he smote the Rock twice: and the water came our abundantly, and the congregation drank and the beasts also." Num 20:11.

I'd bet a month's pay that Chris Angel's a better magician than Moses.
BTW, give me a hammer on a Cat 385 CL and I can make mineral powder from rocks. Or put the bucket back on and I can move the rock from the Artesian well to let the water flow.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Well Gerry, this is supposed to be a discussion, but the guy just posts a bunch of unconnected biblical verses and buggers off, only to return occasionally to tell us we will all burn in a lake of fire if we don't believe his version of the bible. Perhaps if he stuck around to discuss what the point of his posts are, he would not get so much flack. And unfortunately, his threads show up[ in the general topics of the day, so we can't miss them. Besides, I don't appreciate anybody who tells people they are going to burn even if I know he is full of it. He makes it personal. So he can expect people to respond in a personal manner.

It's a free forum.
Like Gerry says, if you don't like Herald's threads, stay out of them. If no-one replied in them, they'd disappear from the menu.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

This IS the proper place for Herald to post these topics. If you don`t want to read what he has to post, THEN STAY OUT OF THE Spirtituality subforum.

Bump

Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina

If "herald" doesn't mind....this might be a great opportunity to discuss the
motivation of some to enter the "Christian Discussion" SubForum, or
others like it, only to mock and ridicule.

I'd personally appreciate an effort at a civil discussion on this topic, as
we all might learn something.

Bump.
Even if I am an atheist, I like discussing religions, even if it is simply to see if there is any reasoning behind the religions' followers.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Yeah, we might learn something, but not from herald. He just posts bible verses, sometimes adds a notice that we're all going to burn in Hell if we don't buy his message, and disappears. He's not interested in discussion, just in making threatening announcements. That justifiably draws mockery and ridicule.

Yep, but sometimes it also provokes discussion. Some faithful even dispute what herald takes out of context and whatnot.

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free

Well, I mock and ridicule because I know how dangerous this illness is. Levity and derision might steer someone away from it. It is a sickness that preys on the weak and vulnerable.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Nietsche
And don't give me any chat about people killing in the name of religions either, because people also kill for money, politics, revenge, etc., also.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Like I said Ron, there is no room for discussion here.

Then why are there quite a few posts after herald's rhetoric?

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free

Most dogmatists are too far gone to recover but it is the people reading the posts and finding comfort in these silly imaginings that I would like to steer away.

I would add that ridicule did help me get over it. I'm still a dogmatist and always will be but I can counter it (to some extent) now with new tools.

So basically, you are saying you counter dogma with dogma; essentially adding to the dogma. Thanks a great bunch.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Dogma certainly is a condition that is difficult to overcome. We need all the tools we can gather. An ex-catholic once told me that I was the first person he met that gave him hope that there was life after Catholicism, having survived it myself. It has taken me almost forty years of studying comparative religions, spiritual paths, philosophies, metaphysics, quantum physics, psychology and para-psychology to feel comfortable with being me in a world where it is taboo to even know who you are.

You live in a different world than I, I guess. I see nothing preventing me from being who I am,. I suppose laziness keeps some from developing themselves, though. Too lazy to spend the energy to develop.

Quote: Originally Posted by herald

you are fools!!!!

So? Everyone is at some point.
I seem to recall reading somewhere: "Judge not lest ye not be judged" (I remember, it was Matt. 7:1) or "Judge not and ye shall not be judged" (Luke 6:7). So I guess you are just as much a fool as anyone else, right?

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave

No, we simply have the ability to think for ourselves and question that which is absurd or false.
What makes you think that yours is the one true religion out of the 5000 or so around. Are all the others wrong or is it you that is wrong.
For that matter can you even prove that there is such a thing as god?
In any event being a good person does not require one to proclaim fealty to any being real or otherwise.
Since a fair number of those that claim to represent your god sexually abuse little kids I think I will just stay agnostic.

It's all in the Great Plan, you know.

Scott Free

#25

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

So basically, you are saying you counter dogma with dogma; essentially adding to the dogma. Thanks a great bunch.

Lol, that's the point.

I said I was a dogmatist. I probably always will be, that's according to the real experts anyway. Certainly I'll always be abrasive and hard to stomach.

And yes dogmatists need not be religious but the majority are and certainly it is the main catalyst for their creation. I'm not religious for example.

Why do people always read half my posts, miss the point and then reply like they got me on some small point?

L Gilbert

#26

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free

Lol, that's the point.

I said I was a dogmatist. I probably always will be, that's according to the real experts anyway. Certainly I'll always be abrasive and hard to stomach.

And yes dogmatists need not be religious but the majority are and certainly it is the main catalyst for their creation. I'm not religious for example.

Why do people always read half my posts, miss the point and then reply like they got me on some small point?

Um, throwing fuel on the fire to keep people from roasting their marshmallows at the fire? Genius.

BTW, are you spying on me that you know I only read half your post?

Scott Free

#27

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

Um, throwing fuel on the fire to keep people from roasting their marshmallows at the fire? Genius.

lol, what are you going to do? Type names at me?

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

BTW, are you spying on me that you know I only read half your post?

I was being kind.

But I can rephrase my question if you'd like?

L Gilbert

#28

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free

lol, what are you going to do? Type names at me?

Only if you start.

Quote:

I was being kind.

How very Christian of you.

Quote:

But I can rephrase my question if you'd like?

Suit yourself.

SirJosephPorter

#29

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by herald

you are fools!!!!

That is 'Mr. Fool' to you.

numbnuts

#30

Re: Jesus:the rock of our salvation

Jul 1st, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Well Gerry, this is supposed to be a discussion, but the guy just posts a bunch of unconnected biblical verses and buggers off, only to return occasionally to tell us we will all burn in a lake of fire if we don't believe his version of the bible. Perhaps if he stuck around to discuss what the point of his posts are, he would not get so much flack. And unfortunately, his threads show up[ in the general topics of the day, so we can't miss them. Besides, I don't appreciate anybody who tells people they are going to burn even if I know he is full of it. He makes it personal. So he can expect people to respond in a personal manner.

It would probably do you good to read the Bible once in a while, even if you don't agree with it, then you could at least debate logically.

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