The Christian Fear Factor:

[Praxius]

Something crossed my mind a day or so ago. It's been something that crossed my mind a few times in the past throughout my life, and just recently I figured it may create an interesting debate.

I'm talking about the logic and reasoning of some christians on their beliefs and why they hold to them. Why don't they accpt other people's views and/or criticisms? Why is it that the majority of the time when you ask them a question, they reply back with some quote from the bible or what someone else has already said, never really having a voice of their own to defend their beliefs?

Now this isn't just Christians who do this, but since I have a better background with Christianity, I'll focus on them for now.

In order for me to find a ligit answer to the above, I had to take a step back in time and think about my own position when I used to follow/believe in the religion. What made me believe it back then? Why don't I now?

And the thing that always comes back as a generic answer is "Fear"

The only reason why I ever followed, let alone believed in the faith was out of fear. If I didn't believe what I was told, then I goto hell. If I question "God's Actions" I goto hell. If I am angry at God or Jesus, I goto hell..... all because I have a lack of faith and trust in their abilities if you will.

And I wouldn't allow other people with different opinions which opposed my own opinions to think any differently, because I always thought that if I started to think that what they were saying makes more sense or puts to question what I believe in, then that was a "Test" from God in regards to my "faith and devotion" to everything I was told to believe as true. If I failed that test, then I figured once again, I'd goto hell in the end of this life. You're taught this is the one and only true path to "Getting Into Heaven" ~ Which is pretty well explained as a paradise where everything/anything you ever wanted can come true, you meet all your lost loved ones past and those to come.... basically there wasn't anything to complain about in regards to Heaven.... this was the reward for all the hard work in your life, all the things you avoided that were "Bad/Evil/Sinish" but if you lost faith, or you question things you are not supposed to question, then you lose this chance of getting into this great place, to be put in a totally opposite place, AKA: Hell.

So to me, when looking back at it all..... It was fear of losing something great when I die if I didn't follow and believe what I was told to follow. Seperation from friends and family.... put in a place designed for continual suffering and torture for all eternity.

But the funny twist was that you're not supposed to follow the religion and expect to goto heaven for selfish reasons, and you shouldn't be jumping from one step to the next to simply win a seat into Heaven, because that is a bit of a selfish approach, so you're not supposed to say or think of doing all of this simply to cover your ass and get into heaven..... you're supposed to just believe it to be true, not to worry about the consequence of hell, live your life according to the bible and such, and it will all fall through..... but we all know it's not that simple. If you give a human a set of rules and explain to them that in the end they can get the greatest reward ever imagined possible, regardless if it's religious based or in a game show, if the person feels that is a great reward to have, then they will usually strive to follow those rules to get what they selfishly want, thereby countering the whole logic of the situation.

But in the end..... why are people who follow religion so closed minded and not all that willing to accept any other concepts other then their own? Because if they did, it would go against everything they were taught, and if they don't believe in all or at least 98% of everything they are taught, then their chances of getting into heaven with a pure frame of mind deminishes, as it begins to raise doubts...... and for many, that's a risk they are not willing to take..... so they will continue to respond in debates with more quotes from the Bible, or other religious text books.... because they can't screw up in their faith if they do that.

How did I come to this conclusion? Because I used to be one of these people. Then I eventually got fed up, started to question everything, started to listen to what others have to say about the topic, and eventually they and my own reasoning began to make much more sense then anything I was ever taught in church....... and my life is of course filled with very little fear of the unknown, I am more at peace with myself, and I feel I am finally doing what is right for me, not what is right dictated by others by their own fears and guilts of things they can't even explain, just like I couldn't.

It's a fear of focusing on actions possibly taken beyond our control in our lives, compared to focusing on the then and now, yourself, those around you, and what directly you do know in the now that is right in front of your face. It is a fear that perhaps there is no real order or control beyond our knowlege and that perhaps we are more responsible for our own actions and the way we interact with the rest of the world around us.

It's a baby mentality if you will.... dependence..... dependence on something greater then ourselves for having all the answers, to protect us in our time of need, that some level of responsibility can be shed off to an unknown being we may never hear or see until we are dead.

It's fear of the unknown..... a basic instinct had by all in all situations where unknowns exist.... the only thing that gives this unknown situation power, is it's fear based on what we have been told by many others, who in turn, don't know any better either.

But it's better to be safe then sorry I guess..... play it safe.... believe in the faith, believe there is something up there in the clouds that actually cares about you.... believe that if you follow all these rules and procedures in life as they laid it out for us, then you will be rewarded in the end. You're life seems perfectly fine now, it all must have been by the hands of God if that is the case, so why fix something that ain't broke? In other words, it's better to play it safe and follow the faith without question, because then if God and Heaven does exist, you covered your ass through your life and therefore you shouldn't have a problem getting in. But if you don't, and you start doing things outside of what everybody has told you, and then there is a God and a Heaven in the end of it all, you just screwed yourself didn't you?

So out of that fear, they believe..... they believe and they respond with stone wall arguments with nothing to back them up then what they have already explained.... they get offended and put on the defense because it is the only real tactic they have that still gets their point accross, and at the same time, covers their ass in the eyes of God and their faith.

But that action in itself is also contradictory..... quite the conundrum/paradox if you ask me.

 

[MHz]

I'm talking about the logic and reasoning of some christians on their beliefs and why they hold to them. Why don't they accpt other people's views and/or criticisms? Why is it that the majority of the time when you ask them a question, they reply back with some quote from the bible or what someone else has already said, never really having a voice of their own to defend their beliefs?

For myself it just gives a frame of reference, especially if it is a quote from Jesus. That quote leads to other verses that are about the same subject. It is nothing more than reading about who came up with the laws of gravity. You are checking something out that either is brand new to you or building up the knowledge you already have.
In reality, if just the relevant verses were given (in context and all that) then the words of men who are trying to explain what that verse means would not be needed quite as much. Quoting also has the effect that deception is minimized, you can take a verse from the OT and try and apply it 'after the cross' and it just doesn't fly because of one of several reasons. One more reason is the vivid descriptions, how could a man, any man, improve on a passage such as the one that describes how the Holy Angels go about gathering the wicked?

Now this isn't just Christians who do this, but since I have a better background with Christianity, I'll focus on them for now.

Do you accept the risk that it is what you were taught about what the Bible says could be what made you 'uneasy' rather than what those verses actually mean when you do your own study. In this case the fear angle would be a good as any place to start.

Two groups of people exist when Christ arrives, some with belief some without. Those two groups are made to be separated from one another so they cannot interact. The ones with belief are 'taught some things about power and glory' during that separation and the ones without belief get a chance to gain some belief (being put somewhere because it is somebody else's choice over their own could possibly do that). When that time of separation is over the two groups are again allowed to interact, the former non-believers are at the same place the believers were when the separation began, the former believers could now act in a 'teaching' type of role. They have some knowledge and abilities that they can explain, show, whatever to the newcomers.

I assume you were taught something like that.

In order for me to find a ligit answer to the above, I had to take a step back in time and think about my own position when I used to follow/believe in the religion. What made me believe it back then? Why don't I now?

And the thing that always comes back as a generic answer is "Fear"

The only reason why I ever followed, let alone believed in the faith was out of fear. If I didn't believe what I was told, then I goto hell. If I question "God's Actions" I goto hell. If I am angry at God or Jesus, I goto hell..... all because I have a lack of faith and trust in their abilities if you will.

Do you have some actual reference verses that are in the proper comntext that verify what you just said in the last paragraph above? If not, then you were being taught something not contained in Scripture for the purposes of control. Don't feel bad, even parents (the ones who are supposed to love us the most) use that same method in several different ways.

And I wouldn't allow other people with different opinions which opposed my own opinions to think any differently, because I always thought that if I started to think that what they were saying makes more sense or puts to question what I believe in, then that was a "Test" from God in regards to my "faith and devotion" to everything I was told to believe as true. If I failed that test, then I figured once again, I'd goto hell in the end of this life. You're taught this is the one and only true path to "Getting Into Heaven" ~ Which is pretty well explained as a paradise where everything/anything you ever wanted can come true, you meet all your lost loved ones past and those to come.... basically there wasn't anything to complain about in regards to Heaven.... this was the reward for all the hard work in your life, all the things you avoided that were "Bad/Evil/Sinish" but if you lost faith, or you question things you are not supposed to question, then you lose this chance of getting into this great place, to be put in a totally opposite place, AKA: Hell.

1Th:5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

If you were to ask one of the leaders of your Church a question and they didn't have a suitable answer would you just leave it at that? The Bible is quite big and finding something specific can take some time but the question you ask probably has something that will help provide a partial answer, which is more than you had. Taking that to the leaders might not go over all that well if they have the 'ask no questions' attitude, others might say something a little more positive.

So to me, when looking back at it all..... It was fear of losing something great when I die if I didn't follow and believe what I was told to follow. Seperation from friends and family.... put in a place designed for continual suffering and torture for all eternity.

I could give you a couple of pages worth of thoughts and Scripture on this one but it boils down to some who are alive after the wrath at the beginning of His return will be missing friends and family. The usual answer is that you just won't mourn for them. That is not the correct answer, if you loved them you will mourn for them. What makes that time tolerable (for just the mourning part) is that they are told that those missing children will again rejoin the living.
This verse isn't the reference verse, it is more like the end of the line for that subject, most verses before this (from many different parts of the Bible) are just confirming the context of this one (that it can be applied to Gentiles)
Jer:31:15:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

It would take as many words, if not more, just to show you that when speaking of death and the grave it can be called the land of the enemy, rather than a foreign Nation.

I don't want to make this too long but if the other points need a reply just say so.

 

[Vereya]

Thanks for the great post, Praxius, that was very interesting and insightful.
One thing I can say as to why Christians always reply with bible quotes, and not with their own opinions. It is a matter of religious upbringing. Until you have cast it aside, and taught yourself to think freely, that is what you are going to do - just quote authorities, quote the bible and quote the pastors. And it refers not only to religious issues, but to all the issues you talk/think about. I am not going to go into discussing who and why invented the religions, and whether we need them or not. A lot had been said already in other threads. The thing is, whether we like it or not, religions rule this world. They do so via the people that belong to them. This scheme works like this - you take a small child, you teach this child that there is only one truth, you teach it until the child is convinced. You set the limits of what is right and what is wrong, what to think and what not to think, what is possible and what isn't. And there you go! When the child grows up, he firmly believes that the stuff he has in his head is how own thoughts and convictions, while it is the religion thinking, acting and making choices for him all the while. This world is free of people who believe themselves to be free while in fact they are not. There are religions that allow their followers freedom of thought and choice, but Christianity and Islam are the ones that force their dogmas into people's heads, and do all their thinking in the way they think best. Hence the fear to admit someone else's point of view - it is not the person who is afraid, it is his religion, deep inside of him, afraid to loose the victim it controls.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Thanks for the great post, Praxius, that was very interesting and insightful.
One thing I can say as to why Christians always reply with bible quotes, and not with their own opinions. It is a matter of religious upbringing. Until you have cast it aside, and taught yourself to think freely, that is what you are going to do - just quote authorities, quote the bible and quote the pastors. And it refers not only to religious issues, but to all the issues you talk/think about. I am not going to go into discussing who and why invented the religions, and whether we need them or not. A lot had been said already in other threads. The thing is, whether we like it or not, religions rule this world. They do so via the people that belong to them. This scheme works like this - you take a small child, you teach this child that there is only one truth, you teach it until the child is convinced. You set the limits of what is right and what is wrong, what to think and what not to think, what is possible and what isn't. And there you go! When the child grows up, he firmly believes that the stuff he has in his head is how own thoughts and convictions, while it is the religion thinking, acting and making choices for him all the while. This world is free of people who believe themselves to be free while in fact they are not. There are religions that allow their followers freedom of thought and choice, but Christianity and Islam are the ones that force their dogmas into people's heads, and do all their thinking in the way they think best. Hence the fear to admit someone else's point of view - it is not the person who is afraid, it is his religion, deep inside of him, afraid to loose the victim it controls.

Vereya,

I had no idea you had such a well balanced understanding of how religion truly works...

:smile:

 

[MHz]

With an atheist it could be programming called patriotism, believe everything you are told and do not question the authorities.
Most who have rejected religion in one form or another have done so after reading the thoughts of somebody who has that same viewpoint. Both of you probably have a favorite author on the subject.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

One thing I can say as to why Christians always reply with bible quotes, and not with their own opinions. It is a matter of religious upbringing.

Quite right, Vereya, in devout Christian households memorizing verses from the Bible is compulsory. Christians reply with Bible quotes because they ‘know’ what is God’s position on each and every issue (pro life, anti-gun control, anti-gays, pro creationism etc.). So rather than think for themselves, it is much easier to recite what God’s position is.

After all, how can they possibly hope to explain it better than God, God has already explained it in the Bible. Indeed, that is why Fundamentalists have such set positions on any subject, and why they take offense at any meaningful dissent.

Suppose you are a prolife Atheist. I could argue the merits of a pro choice position, try to show you that you are wrong, a dialog is possible. However, if you are a prolife Fundamentalist, a dialog is totally impossible. If I try to prove that you are wrong, I am essentially trying to prove that your God is wrong.

If I argue the merits of letting a woman decide whether to have an abortion or not, a Fundamentalist would interpret that to mean that I am advocating murder (because according to him, God says abortion is murder). So I am not just arguing in favor of choice, I am advocating violating the 6th Commandment (5th if you are a Catholic), thou shall not kill.

At this, the Fundamentalist gets very offended, he thinks that I am denigrating, putting down his God. And this indeed is true of pretty much each and every issue, contraception, creationism, gay rights, gun control etc.

A Fundamentalist is totally convinced that he knows God’s will in each and every subject, he has the certainty of an extremist. He considers it his duty to quote God’s world at each and every turn, it also helps him in his commission of world evangelization.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

With an atheist it could be programming called patriotism, believe everything you are told and do not question the authorities.

MHZ, you have got it totally wrong, the first thing an Atheist does is question authority. Indeed, that is why Atheists are thorn in the flesh of any dictatorship, be it Communist, Fascist, Christian or Muslim dictatorship.

Of course I cannot speak for other Atheists, but for me, I don’t take anybody’s word about anything. And as for patriotism, the Fundamentalists are always claiming that Atheists are not patriotic, that they (Fundamentalists) have a monopoly on patriotism.

 

[Vereya]

With an atheist it could be programming called patriotism, believe everything you are told and do not question the authorities.
Most who have rejected religion in one form or another have done so after reading the thoughts of somebody who has that same viewpoint. Both of you probably have a favorite author on the subject.

I got this knowledge from observation and analysis. I am ashamed to admit that I haven't read a single book on this topic.

Oh, yes, and I am not an atheist I'm Pagan

 

[Vereya]

With an atheist it could be programming called patriotism, believe everything you are told and do not question the authorities.

MHZ, you have got it totally wrong, the first thing an Atheist does is question authority. Indeed, that is why Atheists are thorn in the flesh of any dictatorship, be it Communist, Fascist, Christian or Muslim dictatorship.

Absolutely, Sir Joseph! Just question authority, don't be afraid of asking questions! The first sign for alarm is when you are told that you mustn't even doubt this or that thing. There is always an answer. If you are denied it, try to find out why.

 

[scratch]

well said `V`

 

[Nuggler]

Quotin the Prax "The only reason why I ever followed, let alone believed in the faith was out of fear. If I didn't believe what I was told, then I goto hell. If I question "God's Actions" I goto hell. If I am angry at God or Jesus, I goto hell..... all because I have a lack of faith and trust in their abilities if you will.""
____________________

:angry3:When I was a wee tad and goin to Sunday School, the tales we were told by our Anglican minister scared the beejazus outa me.

One Sunday, as well as the fire and brimstone, and going to hell if youse was bad, he told us to think about "eternity", and went on to explain that it meant FOREVER. No end. Think about that when you're in hell being burned all to ratsh1t every day, and realize there is NO FREAKING END TO IT!!! EVER!!! Think about the longest time you can imagine and then realize, that's it. It goes on even longer. How long. FOR ****ING EVER!!!

A couple of the girls started to cry, and I wasn't feeling at all chipper either. Kind of ruined my day, if you know what I mean.

Never felt the same about God seein the little sparrow fall, and his view was tender. **** that.

Instead, I thought about all the "natives", non Christian, in Africa and around the world, and realized God must be a right sh@thead to send them all to hell for not believeing when they never had a chance to.

I quit. Right then. Went fishing instead.

Religion is a ****ing crock of shyte, meant to keep the peasants in line.

And "the church" wonders why attendance is dropping.:angry3: Stick it where the sun don't shine.

 

[MHz]

One thing I can say as to why Christians always reply with bible quotes, and not with their own opinions. It is a matter of religious upbringing.

Quite right, Vereya, in devout Christian households memorizing verses from the Bible is compulsory. Christians reply with Bible quotes because they ‘know’ what is God’s position on each and every issue (pro life, anti-gun control, anti-gays, pro creationism etc.). So rather than think for themselves, it is much easier to recite what God’s position is.

After all, how can they possibly hope to explain it better than God, God has already explained it in the Bible. Indeed, that is why Fundamentalists have such set positions on any subject, and why they take offense at any meaningful dissent.

Suppose you are a prolife Atheist. I could argue the merits of a pro choice position, try to show you that you are wrong, a dialog is possible. However, if you are a prolife Fundamentalist, a dialog is totally impossible. If I try to prove that you are wrong, I am essentially trying to prove that your God is wrong.

If I argue the merits of letting a woman decide whether to have an abortion or not, a Fundamentalist would interpret that to mean that I am advocating murder (because according to him, God says abortion is murder). So I am not just arguing in favor of choice, I am advocating violating the 6th Commandment (5th if you are a Catholic), thou shall not kill.

At this, the Fundamentalist gets very offended, he thinks that I am denigrating, putting down his God. And this indeed is true of pretty much each and every issue, contraception, creationism, gay rights, gun control etc.

A Fundamentalist is totally convinced that he knows God’s will in each and every subject, he has the certainty of an extremist. He considers it his duty to quote God’s world at each and every turn, it also helps him in his commission of world evangelization.

You forgot correcting errors in thinking, on both sides. You probably don't even know what verse covers the unborn.

What is explained is that life (as far as God is concerned) starts at conception. That means that is a person who has 'a name' written down in the Book of Life. That entitles that child to be redeemed from death at the resurrection time. It has nothing to do with if it is murder or not, that is the control both sides you mention try and shove down people's throats and you both have it wrong..

 

[mabudon]

HAHA good posts from several people, tho getting the "unvarnished" view from Nuggler is the highlight so far, there isn't even a bush to beat around in that post lol

 

[MHz]

A couple of the girls started to cry, and I wasn't feeling at all chipper either. Kind of ruined my day, if you know what I mean.

Organized religion is great for sticking their nose into what can be viewed on TV, in the movies, in music, etc. and they just love to stick ratings on everything. If they can put the Simpsons at a rating of 12 or 14 then they should also apply that to what stories from the Bible can be taught young children. Frankly it wouldn't leave a whole lot.

 

[Vereya]

You forgot correcting errors in thinking, on both sides. You probably don't even know what verse covers the unborn.

What is explained is that life (as far as God is concerned) starts at conception. That means that is a person who has 'a name' written down in the Book of Life. That entitles that child to be redeemed from death at the resurrection time. It has nothing to do with if it is murder or not, that is the control both sides you mention try and shove down people's throats and you both have it wrong..

And what about common sense? Life only starts to form at conception. Life is about awareness and consiousness, and this starts only about mid-way into pregnancy, long after abortion is possible. Is it God's will to bring unwanted, and thus, unhappy children into the world? I am not a kind person, MHz. I am hard, and hardened, and somewhat cruel. But even I think that being an unwanted child is the worst fate you can possibly get.

 

[L Gilbert]

Something crossed my mind a day or so ago. It's been something that crossed my mind a few times in the past throughout my life, and just recently I figured it may create an interesting debate..........

But that action in itself is also contradictory..... quite the conundrum/paradox if you ask me.

Cool.

It doesn't really matter to me that people believe whatever they want, it's that some things people believe are irrational. There is no lucid reason to believe what they believe. Why believe in some god or other and not believe in the wicked witch of the west, for instance? Or the Cheshire Cat? Or gremlins? There's no rational basis for believing such things.

I agree that the single main motivation for believing in such things is fear. Congrats on your conclusion as to how religions work: the neverending reference to baseless statements. As I said before, with all its mistakes, science is still better at describing our universe because scientists do point out the mistakes and amend things to accommodate reality. Religions don't.

 

[scratch]

Vereya,

Your words and opinion cannot be challenged.

 

[L Gilbert]

With an atheist it could be programming called patriotism, believe everything you are told and do not question the authorities.

It's a possibility. Not all atheists follow the scientific method or even think about why they think the way they do.

Most who have rejected religion in one form or another have done so after reading the thoughts of somebody who has that same viewpoint. Both of you probably have a favorite author on the subject.

Evidence for this opinion? I suppose there are some that just claim to be atheist because they like what they read or whatever, but I rather think that people who are atheist are people who have actually thought about why they have no belief in deist mythologies as being real. In the other hand I think that most followers of religion have not thought deeply about why they believe in these mythical things.

Reasons Why Atheists Disbelieve Vs. Christian Belief | The Rational Response Squad

Are Atheists all Cynical? Do Atheists Disbelieve Everything They Hear? Atheists are Negative, Joyless, Broken People Without Love in their Lives

For Disbelief - Investigating Atheism

I didn't read a book to figure out that religions are based on nonsense. I used deductive reasoning. AFTER I came to the conclusion that there are no gods, demons, leprachauns, etc. I read books that enforced my conclusion.

I would also like to site a book I finished recently called, "Why People Believe What They Believe," by Andrew Newburg, MD. Newburg posits that there are four interdependent mental modules for belief: cognition, emotion, social consensus, and perception.
It would appear to me that -MOST- Christians believe for emotional or social consensus reasons. Social consensus will cut a wide swath of Christians who are indoctrinated as children. The other "born-again" variety invariably "accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior" due to "spiritual" or "mystical" experiences.

I agree. I DISagree that "most" (your term) atheists disbelieve because of emotion or social concensus.

 

[L Gilbert]

........Is it God's will to bring unwanted, and thus, unhappy children into the world? ..............

Of course it is, if we are to believe that this silly entity is all-powerful. If we believe this, then EVERYTHING that happens is either planned by this entity to happen or allowed by it and even then it must have been planned to be in the first place.

 

[mabudon]

Agree with that L.Gilbert, wholeheartedly

Not to toot my own horn, but as a kid I got REAL smart REAL fast, I tended to really think about things a lot even as young as 5 or so (I wasn't allowed to see Star Wars when it came out so I bought the novel and read it myself, I would have actually been 5 then)

My mom decided around the time that I started grade 1 that my sister and I should get some religion (even tho she never went to church). So we went to Sunday School... all I would do is ask detailed questions (this was LONG before I knew how to be mean to stupid people by asking them actual questions they couldn't answer) and get really stupid, dismissive responses.

I don't know the whole story, but I DO know that all of a sudden after a month or two Sunday School just flat-out disappeared from my life without ANY explanation, and in my mind, it proved that organized religion was NOT some absolute, just something people do if they want, like bowling or having fondue parties.

I became an agnostic without knowing it, and certainly WELL before I read much about metaphysics.. hell I lived way the hell up north and to this day I remember the first time I saw a black person "in real life" (I was young, but not younger than 3-4) I kept laughing and thinkin the person had makeup on, so it wasn't like I was searching for religion of any sort. It simply became QUITE apparent that organized religion was something that some folks just don't have ANY connection to OR need of