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Revelation 14

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look3467
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#1Mar 6th, 2008
Anybody care to discuss the wording and what it all means in this chapter?

Since it is central to all that I believe to be the designed plan of God, I would gladly discuss my insights into it.

Some questions concerning the words are:
1. Who and why are there 144,000?
2.How is the Fathers name written in their foreheads?
3. Is a lamb a beast?
4.What mean "as the voice of many water, as the voice of great thunder and the voice of harpers harping"?
5.Before the throne?
6.Before the four beasts?
7.Before the elders?
8. What means that only the 144,000 could learn that song?
9. The only ones redeemed?
10. They were not defiled with women?
11. They are virgins?

I think that those are enough questions asked in order to prove that within the whole bible are symbolisms, metaphors, numbers doubled, tripled,and multiplied, visions of this or that.

All of which makes no sense at all to the average reader, for there in lies the mysteries of the ghost writer, who intended for us to seek out those answers if we dared.

If you want to discuss these things, however small or great, please contribute your views, for all views will I entertain.

Peace>>>AJ
 
mrgrumpy
#2

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
"Seek out answers", eh?

I think you mean by answers, YOUR interpretations. For surely YOUR interpretations would not be the same as say the Catholics, or the Uniteds or the Anglicans or the Lutherans or the Presbyterians, or various Jewish sects, or the Mormons or the Seventh day Adventists or for that matter any schmuck on the street, now would they?
Last edited by mrgrumpy; Mar 6th, 2008 at 04:47 PM..
 
hermite
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#3

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
Uh oh. I know about Harper's harping. Damn, maybe this really is the end.

 
Scott Free
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#4

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
I think you would have to put the quote in an historical context. I'm sure it meant something to the author but it means nothing to us today. You cant interpret such a text by juxtaposing modern events or you will be taking the authors meaning out of context. That may lead to some insight about our modern world, true, but that can't be taken as the authors intent. This is how mysteries of the bible are routinely misinterpreted.
 
look3467
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#5

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by mrgrumpyView Post

"Seek out answers", eh?

I think you mean by answers, YOUR interpretations. For surely YOUR interpretations would not be the same as say the Catholics, or the Uniteds or the Anglicans or the Lutherans or the Presbyterians, or various Jewish sects, or the Mormons or the Seventh day Adventists or for that matter any schmuck on the street, now would they?

My views are my interpretations yes, but the most beautiful thing about my views is that it includes in Gods plan for all folks regardless of who or what they believe to be saved after this life is all said and done.

It is the view that unites all folk, in a fellowship of love, rather than a dis-fellowship because of beliefs.

Even you, my friend, would be to me a friend first, and your views would be respected.

So, friend, it is good to converse with you despite our differences.

Peace>>>AJ
 
look3467
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#6

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

I think you would have to put the quote in an historical context. I'm sure it meant something to the author but it means nothing to us today. You cant interpret such a text by juxtaposing modern events or you will be taking the authors meaning out of context. That may lead to some insight about our modern world, true, but that can't be taken as the authors intent. This is how mysteries of the bible are routinely misinterpreted.

The historical context of the chapter has to do with the time span between the prophets who prophesied 400 plus years before Christ, and what were the current political conditions at that time.

The message was written addressing all those prophecies, political conditions using them as symbols to convey a spiritual message, that in those times, persecution of believers was going on.

I believe, based on all that I have understood about why it was done that way basically, that mankind needed to perform an action of seeking, analyzing and through experience, learn what God is all about in each individual life.

An inner spiritual growth that transcends above all earthly desires, to the perfection of the inner man of the heart.

The bible speaks of perfect love as casting out all fear. That being the case, when one arrives there at that point, love itself becomes the vehicle by which directs all our actions.

Peace>>>AJ
 
look3467
#7

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by hermiteView Post

Uh oh. I know about Harper's harping. Damn, maybe this really is the end.

And how is that? Harper's harping?

Peace>>>AJ
 
MHz
#8

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 6th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

Anybody care to discuss the wording and what it all means in this chapter?

That would be the day I passed up an opportunity to verbose an otherwise clear short opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

Since it is central to all that I believe to be the designed plan of God, I would gladly discuss my insights into it.

My 'outlook' will probably be a bit different.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

Some questions concerning the words are:
1. Who and why are there 144,000?

These are the remnant that God will not allow to see the grave after a certain starting time, yet to be.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

2.How is the Fathers name written in their foreheads?

God baptizes them with baptize from Heaven (GOD), which is slightly different than baptism from Jesus. Christ is bound by prophecy not to help the rest of the 12 tribes during that certain time. He is also bound to helping them at the end of that period.
If Jesus protected the 144,000 then His face would not be hid from them (all of them).

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

3. Is a lamb a beast?

The many eyes are references to a number of times that Christ is speaking about some things He does, words with the deed in that one book, following quite quickly in most instances.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

4.What mean "as the voice of many water, as the voice of great thunder and the voice of harpers harping"?

It starts out as 'sounding like running water' but at a high volume, like a steady thunder that changed pitch the same way a little brook would.
Apparently the harpers are even louder.
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

5.Before the throne?

The might be His throne in Heaven 9home of the angels, same place as Satan was called up to a few times in Job. This is not the Great White Throne) If you are wondering about where the Holy Spirit is (God and Christ already mentioned) look no further than the Throne itself.

[quote=look3467;933029]
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

6.Before the four beasts?

The 'after their kind' that was all flesh with the exception of man. These would be the ones that let God know when even a sparrow died.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

7.Before the elders?

They were redeemed from men, the only time that has happened was when some Saints came out of the graves when Jesus did. Take your pick from there back. John the Baptist on back to Adam.
Personally would include a lot from those that were over 120 when they died.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

8. What means that only the 144,000 could learn that song?

These are the 'firstfruits' that Christ welcomes into His kingdom when He is wearing the crown that is given to the KING of KINGS. That verse would be complete before the resurrection of the rest of those tribes. These 144,000 would probably be the ones who 'welcome home' the others.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

9. The only ones redeemed?

Up to that point, 24 at the cross. The 144,000 should be right after the His two witnesses are resurrected.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

10. They were not defiled with women?

It might mean it is an all male group, it might mean they are in the same 'state' as those who are resurrected about the same time. They neither marry nor are they given in marriage. There are a few other possibilities.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

11. They are virgins?

They have never married, these go on to have a future that puts them almost as Shepherds to the rest of resurrected Israel.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

I think that those are enough questions asked in order to prove that within the whole bible are symbolisms, metaphors, numbers doubled, tripled,and multiplied, visions of this or that.

That sounds like it is going to be rather long, to be fair to, you should write it from scratch rather than repost something you have already written in the past.

Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

All of which makes no sense at all to the average reader, for there in lies the mysteries of the ghost writer, who intended for us to seek out those answers if we dared.

Actually, that is just who Scripture was written for. The first impression of what is being said is what the minute details enhance, it does not change the first impression.
You have to have an impression before you can have a question.

If you like Scripture about visions you should (being that this book was a contender for what ended up being 66 books) read Enoch. I think he was with God for 300 of his 365 years. I wouldn't expect you to understand it all on your first read.
Even then, though the words might seem very spiritual, they cover places that are physical places in Heaven.
 
look3467
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#9

Re: Revelation 14

Mar 7th, 2008
Hi, MHz

I can see by your answers that you still have the typical view of how all that is seen.

I would like to present to you a different view which in no way takes away the glory to God, but in fact, credits Him with such a wonderful and glorious plan for mankind.

Starting with verse one: Rev 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

We see Jesus, the sacrificial lamb (a beast), surrounded by the band of men from the high priests in whose minds are written the letter of the law, the laws of Moses, given to them by the Father God, by which blinds them to see Jesus as the Son of God.
These men are instrumental and are exempt from their wrong doings, because they are as virgins, sealed by the Father to perform as they were led to by the Father who blinded them to Jesus.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.

In understanding the order of the sacrifice, there must be first instituted a high priest that is ordained to offer sacrifices unto God for the people.

Such were these men who accused Jesus of blasphemy; these men were as like Abel, who offered a lamb (Jesus)acceptable to God as a sacrifice, and Jesus was as Cain offering up the first fruits (These 144 band of men) as the sacrifice, which was not favored by God.

But God would not accept them as a sacrifice, but Jesus only, thus, these men are forgiven as being the firsts fruits that are forgiven, meaning they are as like virgins, pure of any wrong doings.

Saying all that then sets the stage for a deeper understanding into those events which happened during that time when Jesus was about to be offered up for the world.

Second verse: Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
The Jewish nation is prepped to bring over to the the ark (Christ) into the promised land by fulfilling the scriptures.

1Ch 15:28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of Jehovah with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, sounding aloud with psalteries and harps.

Israel is Gods spokesman as a voice heard from heaven, and as was customary when the ark of the Covenant was brought in that was a joyous occasion of celebration.

Verse 3: Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.

Again, the burden of offering Jesus is upon the shoulders of these band of men, who to only was given those instructions, (by the way, Judas is included with them) new the only new song, because to them only was it given to Jesus to as an offering as first fruits sacrifice by Jesus, as a matter of forgiveness, when Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.
But again, that offering is rejected, for Jesus Himself is the offering which actually forgives them, and all of us to boot.

That is enough for these first 3 verses.

I just wanted you all to see that there is more to the bible than just stories, symbols and numbers, for they all mean something, and that something is what need be sought after for a clear understanding of the book of Revelation.

Peace>>>AJ
 
chachynga
#10

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 15th, 2008
they follow Gods laws, and certainly don't eat pork
 
darkbeaver
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#11

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 15th, 2008
And yet the barbacued pork chop is surely not the least of gods creations--------DB 9-11
 
dj03
#12

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 18th, 2008
Quote:

I think that those are enough questions asked in order to prove that within the whole bible are symbolisms, metaphors, numbers doubled, tripled,and multiplied, visions of this or that.

I didn't realize this was in dispute? Even most "literalists" tend to acknowledge these things and the few that don't are usually too far "out there" to bother discussing things with.
 
look3467
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#13

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by dj03View Post

I didn't realize this was in dispute? Even most "literalists" tend to acknowledge these things and the few that don't are usually too far "out there" to bother discussing things with.

Understood, but the meanings are not in my opinion.

I know and understand the literalist point of view for I've being one for most of my Christian life.

But unless one wants more than what is understood, one must dig further to the joy of the Father.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

I searched out the matter!

Peace>>>AJ
 
Tundra Tornado
#14

Apocalypsis

Apr 18th, 2008
It's best to keep in mind when trying to interpret the Book of Revelation that it belongs to the genre of apocalyptic literature, a type of literature quite popular at the time of Jesus. One of its characteristics is the extensive use of imagery and allegory, so literal interpretations almost never work. Also, the writer of the book is clearly expecting the reader to be familiar with other apocalyptic works which are not in our Bible - such as I and II Enoch. Lacking that background, much of what we find in Revelation will necessarily seem obscure.

With that in mind, let me take a crack at chapter 14...

Why 144,000? It's an allegorical number - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, symbolizing totality. The 144,000 symbolize those who have been martyred for refusing to worship the Beast. This is the true meaning of their "virginity". Idolatry and worshipping false gods is always described in the Old Testament in sexual terms, specifically as fornication and adultery (see verse 8 for an example of this language). They are "virgins" in that they have been faithful to the Lamb unto death.

To have someone's name on your forehead is a way of describing your allegiance. Those faithful to the Lamb have his name on their foreheads, and those faithful to the Beast have his name on theirs (verse 9). Recall as well that in the Israelite world a "name" was something active, a personal force, not just a label.

The remainder of the chapter contains the message that those who worship the Beast will suffer God's judgment, but those who are faithful will ultimately be saved.

The context of this chapter is quite clearly the ongoing martyrdom of Christians, and attempts to answer the question of what happens to those who are martyred. The money quote is verse 13:

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

The chapter ends by promising the victory of God's forces on earth against those who are persecuting the Christians.

A prophecy that actually came true with the conversion of Constantine, but I doubt the author of Revelation had that in mind.

Cheers and good luck with the rest of the book.
 
Dexter Sinister
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#15

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Tundra TornadoView Post

It's best to keep in mind ... literal interpretations almost never work.

...

Cheers and good luck with the rest of the book.

Welcome to the boards Tundra. You'll soon find you're plowing sterile ground on this subject. You will not convince some people that (a) the Bible's not literally true, and (b) Revelation is not about our own times.
 
Tundra Tornado
#16

Literality

Apr 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Welcome to the boards Tundra. You'll soon find you're plowing sterile ground on this subject. You will not convince some people that (a) the Bible's not literally true, and (b) Revelation is not about our own times.

Well, parts of the Bible are in fact literally true, as scholars can attest. They're just not he most interesting parts. Also, where the Bible itself clearly intends a symbolic or allegorical meaning (e.g., the parables of Christ), then using a figurative interpretation is in fact the "literal" interpretation, right? Fundamentalism in fact requires non-literal interpretation to make sense of the Bible, since often the literal interpretations are way too scary (the story of the Fall in Genesis is a good example of this).

As for Revelation not being about our time: in one sense, sure. The author Revelation wasn't peering into a crystal ball and seeing Britney Spears entering rehab. In another sense, not so fast. I think Christians undergoing persecution for their faith in the modern world would find the message of Revelation highly relevant to their current situation.
 
dj03
#17

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote:

I know and understand the literalist point of view for I've being one for most of my Christian life.

What point of view do you have now (in general, not just Revelation)?
 
dj03
#18

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote:

I think Christians undergoing persecution for their faith in the modern world would find the message of Revelation highly relevant to their current situation.

I think you are right.
 
Dexter Sinister
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#19

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Tundra TornadoView Post

Well, parts of the Bible are in fact literally true

Certainly, parts of its story are supported by other sources and many of the people and places in it are, or were, real.
Quote:

Also, where the Bible itself clearly intends a symbolic or allegorical meaning (e.g., the parables of Christ), then using a figurative interpretation is in fact the "literal" interpretation, right? Fundamentalism in fact requires non-literal interpretation to make sense of the Bible, since often the literal interpretations are way too scary

I think you're just playing with words here a bit, and you know it, or you wouldn't have put "literal" in quotes. Some things are clearly intended as parable, metaphor, and allegory, some things equally clearly are not, and there's a vast gray area where it's not clear. I wouldn't agree though that fundamentalism requires a non-literal interpretation, fundamentalism in my experience takes literally everything that is not clearly identified as not to be taken that way. The tale of the Garden of Eden and the Fall is taken as literally true precisely because its scary and makes wicked, unredeemed sinners of us all.

Quote:

As for Revelation not being about our time: in one sense, sure. The author Revelation wasn't peering into a crystal ball and seeing Britney Spears entering rehab. In another sense, not so fast. I think Christians undergoing persecution for their faith in the modern world would find the message of Revelation highly relevant to their current situation.

Perhaps they would, but only if they understood it metaphorically. The message is about the triumph of good over evil, how the persecutors will be brought down and the righteous elevated. Like most apocalyptic literature, it's meant to reassure the faithful that things in fact are working out according to some divine plan and it'll all come right in the end. But to take it as a literal description of the end of the world as we know it in the near future, which is how a lot of contemporary fundamentalists read it, is I think a dangerous and foolish delusion.
 
MHz
#20

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

But to take it as a literal description of the end of the world as we know it in the near future, which is how a lot of contemporary fundamentalists read it, is I think a dangerous and foolish delusion.

And it includes a few lines about the world beginning as we don't know it, like sin becoming extinct.
It is neither foolish nor dangerous to view Revelation as a guide to a set sequence of events that follow a rigid time-line. Both the rest of the NT and much of the OT have words that apply only to the events given in Revelation.
If you can't 'shift' the ending of the of prophecy that is in Matt:24 to the first few trumps in Revelation then maybe you haven't tried viewing the literal version. Being in fear of death is thinking your life is in danger, literally. Taken any other way, like death being 'a belief in something' is not literal. The dead rising from graves is literal, it has not happened yet, nor has the literal fulfillment of any of Revelation. Reading about 'Godly power' is different from seeing it unfold.
 
MHz
#21

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Tundra TornadoView Post

It's best to keep in mind when trying to interpret the Book of Revelation that it belongs to the genre of apocalyptic literature, a type of literature quite popular at the time of Jesus. One of its characteristics is the extensive use of imagery and allegory, so literal interpretations almost never work. Also, the writer of the book is clearly expecting the reader to be familiar with other apocalyptic works which are not in our Bible - such as I and II Enoch. Lacking that background, much of what we find in Revelation will necessarily seem obscure.

I'm not sure a chapter or two from Enoch would add any clarity to Revelation. Anything to do with the Son of Man in Enoch is in general terms, although it might shed some light on the rapture issue. There is more than enough Scripture in the Holy Bible to get a fairly clear understanding of what Revelation talks about.
Sure apocalyptic literature was 'popular', every book from Exodus has something to say about the Messiah coming as King (with the muscle to back-up His desires all by Himself). The Day of the Lord is the most common theme of the entire Bible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tundra TornadoView Post

The 144,000 symbolize those who have been martyred for refusing to worship the Beast. This is the true meaning of their "virginity". Idolatry and worshipping false gods is always described in the Old Testament in sexual terms, specifically as fornication and adultery (see verse 8 for an example of this language). They are "virgins" in that they have been faithful to the Lamb unto death.

That's interesting, they are sealed before any trump sounds, Satan only makes his entrance at the 5th trump. The locusts cannot harm the ones who have been sealed, I doubt God would then let death take them, plus they are called the 'first-fruits', then 'others, at Christ's return. It would seem that seal is a form of protection from harm. They should be a part of the woman (ch:12) that has the earth itself interfere with Satan & Co.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tundra TornadoView Post

The chapter ends by promising the victory of God's forces on earth against those who are persecuting the Christians.

A prophecy that actually came true with the conversion of Constantine, but I doubt the author of Revelation had that in mind..

Are these two lines supposed to go together, as persecution was just getting started back then wasn't it?

Small point but Christ was the 'actual author' of Revelation, He was speaking to His 'scribe' who then wrote it down word for word..
 
look3467
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#22

Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
The bible since it has been put together will be a book for all time, I believe.
Because, it application can be timeless and fits many situations.

But, to get the real picture of what the book of Revelation is making, has to do with the process of recreation that Christ had to go through in order “to save that which was lost”.

Ref: Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

The process had to do with the original story of creation which over a period of time evolved to what it was to the point when Jesus made the scene.

Jesus had but a short time to do it in, in fact, only one day.

So, to compile all sin ever committed and the sin of eternal separation (death), Jesus had to include the souls of all them that ever lived, living and will live, into one body, and sacrifice that body in ransom for all mankind.

Hence chapter fourteen opens with the lamb, the sacrificial lamb and the people around Him as coded 144,000.

You have a beast (lamb) a coded number and “The
Father’s name” on their foreheads.
Notice: the lambs name but the fathers name.

That is because the wall around Jesus are men who in their minds held to the directions and instructions given down through Moses and the prophets which was in direct contrast to that of Jesus’.

144,000 can be said to include all the tribes 12,000 x 12000 =144,000.

But in this case is defines what the subject is about, and that is the wall around Jesus that followed Him everywhere the lamb went.

This wall feel backwards at Jesus’ arrest: Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

REV 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins…

These men, coded virgins, were going to be exempt from their sin of crucifying Jesus when Jesus prayed: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

There were than as angels doing the will of the Father.

When these men come to take him captive, by law they become captive themselves. Jesus may keep them for bondsmen. But he does not. In his refusal to hold their trespass against them they are therefore redeemed by his grace. This then as an offering to God, as are all of our forgiving of others are.

So, I am saying to you’al, that to the best of my understanding this point of view fits the best possible scenario, because it is in concert with all of the bible from front to end.

All other end time scenarios’ have no substance because it is all guess work, and fuel to promote fear in persuading the world to come to Jesus.

But in fact, the opposite is true, that through the demonstration of love and understanding, more folk could be won to Jesus.

My attitude has changed from nonbelievers going to hell because of their failure to believe in Jesus as I do, to all souls are going to be saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

What that now affords me the freedom to express my love without discrimination towards all who would having nothing to do with God, to share God with them in a way that would give God the credit because of my actions.

The God of the bible is a loving God, but has been tainted by mankind’s interpretation of Him.

Hence” Father forgive them for they know not what they do” because we will all be forgiven.
The key issue for mankind was the death of it’s soul, meaning the soul had no hope of ever getting into heaven were it not that God provided the means to do so for mankind.

Once that is realized, the soul is liberated, free from all dogmas, practices and is under bondage to no one.
Peace>>>AJ



 
Tundra Tornado
#23

Fundamentalist Metaphors

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Certainly, parts of its story are supported by other sources and many of the people and places in it are, or were, real. I think you're just playing with words here a bit, and you know it, or you wouldn't have put "literal" in quotes. Some things are clearly intended as parable, metaphor, and allegory, some things equally clearly are not, and there's a vast gray area where it's not clear. I wouldn't agree though that fundamentalism requires a non-literal interpretation, fundamentalism in my experience takes literally everything that is not clearly identified as not to be taken that way. The tale of the Garden of Eden and the Fall is taken as literally true precisely because its scary and makes wicked, unredeemed sinners of us all.
Perhaps they would, but only if they understood it metaphorically. The message is about the triumph of good over evil, how the persecutors will be brought down and the righteous elevated. Like most apocalyptic literature, it's meant to reassure the faithful that things in fact are working out according to some divine plan and it'll all come right in the end. But to take it as a literal description of the end of the world as we know it in the near future, which is how a lot of contemporary fundamentalists read it, is I think a dangerous and foolish delusion.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
It's not clear to me how I'm "playing with words". I'm just pointing out that "literal interpretation" is itself an ambiguous term. One standard meaning of the term, at least in terms of literary exegesis, is "it means what the author intended it to mean". But if part of the author's intention was for a passage to be taken symbolically or metaphorically, then the literal reading of that passage would have to be symbolic or metaphorical. QED.

And fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible absolutely has to rely on non-literal interpretations of the Bible in order to protect its own assumptions. A classic case of this is when Jesus says we must hate our fathers and mothers to follow him. Show me a fundamentalist who insists on a literal meaning of that passage. You won't find one.

Or when Paul says that *all* goverment authorities are appointed by God, and must be obeyed. Fundamentalists aren't too keen to accept that as a literal truth when they decide to condemn and oppose the governments they live under.

I could multiply this list many, many times without even breaking a sweat.
 
Tundra Tornado
#24

Persecution

Apr 19th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

I'm not sure a chapter or two from Enoch would add any clarity to Revelation. Anything to do with the Son of Man in Enoch is in general terms, although it might shed some light on the rapture issue. There is more than enough Scripture in the Holy Bible to get a fairly clear understanding of what Revelation talks about.
Sure apocalyptic literature was 'popular', every book from Exodus has something to say about the Messiah coming as King (with the muscle to back-up His desires all by Himself). The Day of the Lord is the most common theme of the entire Bible.
That's interesting, they are sealed before any trump sounds, Satan only makes his entrance at the 5th trump. The locusts cannot harm the ones who have been sealed, I doubt God would then let death take them, plus they are called the 'first-fruits', then 'others, at Christ's return. It would seem that seal is a form of protection from harm. They should be a part of the woman (ch:12) that has the earth itself interfere with Satan & Co.
Are these two lines supposed to go together, as persecution was just getting started back then wasn't it?
Small point but Christ was the 'actual author' of Revelation, He was speaking to His 'scribe' who then wrote it down word for word..

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The earliest persecutions of Christians were carried out by Nero and Caligula, and continued periodically for the next two centuries. The generally accepted date for the authorship of Revelation coincides almost exactly with Caligula's persecution. Indeed, the number of the beast (which is actually 616, not 666), can easily be decoded to yield Caligula's name.

Roman persecutions of Christians only ended with the conversion of Constantine to Christianity (that is to say, persecutions of Christians by non-Christians. Persecution of Christians by other Christians was just beginning). So John's prophecy ultimately came true.

Rev. 14 is also concerned to answer a question that was to bedevil early Christianity right through the time of Augustine. Namely, what is the fate of those who were Christians, but who then gave up their faith under duress during persecutions? Were they still saved? Or were they damned? Revelation gives a rather harsh answer to that question.

And no matter how you understand the experiences that led the author of Revelation to write his book, it's undisputed that he's the one who actually did the writing, even if he was being dictated to by a fiery angel. God leaves the manual labor to us. Typical boss!
 
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Re: Revelation 14

Apr 19th, 2008
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And no matter how you understand the experiences that led the author of Revelation to write his book, it's undisputed that he's the one who actually did the writing, even if he was being dictated to by a fiery angel. God leaves the manual labor to us. Typical boss! >>>Tundra Tornado

The application of parts or all of the book of Revelation is hinged on individual beliefs, at different time spans in human history.

I found an old book written in the early 1800's by some bishop detailing the end of the world in 1844.

I came across that book not by co- incidence but by design so as to further my knowledge of understanding concerning my desire to find truth of the end times.

But I can see clearly now the true message is in the works of God in reconciling the world back unto Him self more so that what the message Christianity gets out of it today.

In reality, God deceived us in order for us to be like Him, but knew also to give us hope and to save us where no one else could.

In its place, we get to be like Him in practice, but understand this, we are accountable for our actions until the death. Death is the wages for that accountability.

After that, we are totally His.

Peace>>>AJ
 

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