Time Out
Posts: 360 
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 18th, 2008, 10:28 AM
Funny how humanity is trying to understand it's place in the universe while holding on to the festering fairy tales of ancient writings, given to us by illiterate goat herders and woven into 'theologies' that still seek to punish and reward as the interpreters of the fairy tales deem is in their best interest.
Funny how humanity is trying to understand it's place in the universe while holding on to the festering fairy tales of ancient writings, given to us by illiterate goat herders and woven into 'theologies' that still seek to punish and reward as the interpreters of the fairy tales deem is in their best interest.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,135 
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 18th, 2008, 01:22 PM
By intelligence I mean consciousness. And I'd use ''awareness of self and the environment and the relationship in between'' as a broad definition of consciousness.
The cheetah hunting its prey can't calculate math in its mind, yet it is acutely aware (conscious) of its environment. It needs to be or it will starve to death.
Of course, consciousness (the way I understand it) comes in many forms. Paradoxal sleep dreaming state is a very different type of consciousness than our usual 'awake' reality but it is still a form of consciousness. At least from my understanding... Drugs can put us in states totally alien to what we normally understand as 'consciousness' but all we do is alter the chemistry of our brains. Are we to say consciousness is only the result of one particular and precisely balanced mix of chemicals in our brain, or are we to say consciousness comes in as many forms as there are living beings?
Is a tree conscious? I would say yes, but the perceptions and 'thoughts' of the tree are without a doubt, hardly conceivable for our human minds.
Is the Universe conscious? I don't know. Is it alive? It all depends on how you understand what 'life' is. From my own personal point of view, I prefer thinking that the universe IS intelligent (conscious) because it wouldn't make sense for me to view myself as more conscious than the universe itself...
By intelligence I mean consciousness. And I'd use ''awareness of self and the environment and the relationship in between'' as a broad definition of consciousness.
The cheetah hunting its prey can't calculate math in its mind, yet it is acutely aware (conscious) of its environment. It needs to be or it will starve to death.
Of course, consciousness (the way I understand it) comes in many forms. Paradoxal sleep dreaming state is a very different type of consciousness than our usual 'awake' reality but it is still a form of consciousness. At least from my understanding... Drugs can put us in states totally alien to what we normally understand as 'consciousness' but all we do is alter the chemistry of our brains. Are we to say consciousness is only the result of one particular and precisely balanced mix of chemicals in our brain, or are we to say consciousness comes in as many forms as there are living beings?
Is a tree conscious? I would say yes, but the perceptions and 'thoughts' of the tree are without a doubt, hardly conceivable for our human minds.
Is the Universe conscious? I don't know. Is it alive? It all depends on how you understand what 'life' is. From my own personal point of view, I prefer thinking that the universe IS intelligent (conscious) because it wouldn't make sense for me to view myself as more conscious than the universe itself...
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,650 
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
February 18th, 2008, 01:23 PM
throughout time, but cannot seem to move forward in that catagory, very puzzling indeed.
I am leaving the goat herders back in that era along with all the backward and ignorant
fears and beliefs they had, and I'm sure there are goat herders today, who would agree
with me.
Quoting mrgrumpy
So very true, man has evolved and progressed and invented so many wonderful things
Funny how humanity is trying to understand it's place in the universe while holding on to the festering fairy tales of ancient writings, given to us by illiterate goat herders and woven into 'theologies' that still seek to punish and reward as the interpreters of the fairy tales deem is in their best interest.
throughout time, but cannot seem to move forward in that catagory, very puzzling indeed.
I am leaving the goat herders back in that era along with all the backward and ignorant
fears and beliefs they had, and I'm sure there are goat herders today, who would agree
with me.
Time Out
Posts: 360
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 18th, 2008, 01:34 PM
lone - Don't want to make too many assumptions or offend you but I take it you are more of a romanticist than a rationalist and perhaps ascribe to natural phenomena attributes more mystical and preordained than science can justify..,
lone - Don't want to make too many assumptions or offend you but I take it you are more of a romanticist than a rationalist and perhaps ascribe to natural phenomena attributes more mystical and preordained than science can justify..,
Super Genius
Posts: 1,135
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 18th, 2008, 01:40 PM
You're right, I am very much interested in mysticism... I'm also a romantic musician who sees beauty and intelligence in strange things... But that doesn't stop me from being able to think rationally. I dare you to prove me the Universe has no consciousness whatsoever. To me this question is essential to the whole 'God' debate.
I'll also ask you to answer this question, which I already asked a while ago on this forum.
Are you more conscious than a tree?
Quoting mrgrumpy
No offense...
lone - Don't want to make too many assumptions or offend you but I take it you are more of a romanticist than a rationalist and perhaps ascribe to natural phenomena attributes more mystical and preordained than science can justify..,
You're right, I am very much interested in mysticism... I'm also a romantic musician who sees beauty and intelligence in strange things... But that doesn't stop me from being able to think rationally. I dare you to prove me the Universe has no consciousness whatsoever. To me this question is essential to the whole 'God' debate.I'll also ask you to answer this question, which I already asked a while ago on this forum.
Are you more conscious than a tree?
Time Out
Posts: 360
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 18th, 2008, 01:58 PM
Can one argue a negative?
Is the universe conscious? If it is, where is the proof or evidence? Man writes books, makes music,expresses emotions, creates ideas and babies and governments and civilizations; contemplates himself (imperfectly), philosophises and conjectures and imagines... what does the universe do but surrender to the laws of physics, gravity and chemistry?
Can one argue a negative?
Is the universe conscious? If it is, where is the proof or evidence? Man writes books, makes music,expresses emotions, creates ideas and babies and governments and civilizations; contemplates himself (imperfectly), philosophises and conjectures and imagines... what does the universe do but surrender to the laws of physics, gravity and chemistry?
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 3,401
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
February 18th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Quoting s_lone
Wrong way around my friend. There's no evidence the universe is conscious, no a priori reason to think it is, and plenty of reasons to think it isn't, chief among them being the lack of evidence that it is. You're the one making the contrary claim, the burden of providing the evidence is on you, not mrgrumpy.
I dare you to prove me the Universe has no consciousness whatsoever. To me this question is essential to the whole 'God' debate.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,135
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 18th, 2008, 02:10 PM
Quoting mrgrumpy
The universe doesn't surrender to the laws of physics, gravity and chemistry, it IS these laws. Or do you think these laws exist in a Platonic realm of Ideas? And what are you except a puppet of physics, gravity and chemistry? From a 'rational' point of view, there is no reason to believe that when a man writes a book, there is anything else going on but complex chimistry in his brain. Who is really creative? The Whole? Or part of the Whole?
Can one argue a negative?
Is the universe conscious? If it is, where is the proof or evidence? Man writes books, makes music,expresses emotions, creates ideas and babies and governments and civilizations; contemplates himself (imperfectly), philosophises and conjectures and imagines... what does the universe do but surrender to the laws of physics, gravity and chemistry?
Is the universe conscious? If it is, where is the proof or evidence? Man writes books, makes music,expresses emotions, creates ideas and babies and governments and civilizations; contemplates himself (imperfectly), philosophises and conjectures and imagines... what does the universe do but surrender to the laws of physics, gravity and chemistry?
Super Genius
Posts: 1,135
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 18th, 2008, 02:21 PM
You can make a case for both scenarios. From my point of view, we are part of the Universe and if we define ourselves as conscious, than that makes the Universe conscious, or at least partly conscious. We as humans are not totally conscious (think of dreamless sleep) yet we still define ourselves as conscious. We don't view our stomach as being conscious but still view the whole as conscious. We are a part of the Universe so couldn't that make the whole conscious? If the Universe didn't have the potential for consciousness, our consciousness wouldn't be possible... If we are the only conscious 'part' of the universe than WE are the consciousness of the Universe and the Universe, if seen from a holistic point of view, is conscious.
From another point of view, WE (humans) are not the Universe, we are apart from it, we are a distinct and seperate entity. Then it becomes possible to doubt that the rest is intelligent and to take for granted that it isn't. I prefer to affirm that I simply don't know whether it is conscious or not. I tend to think it is conscious, because it doesn't make sense to me to think that I could be an island of consciousness within a sea of unconsciousness. But that's a personal belief, not knowledge.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Is there really a 'wrong' way around Dexter? I'm asking proof that the Universe is a lifeless and unconscious lump of energy and matter. While you're asking proof that this lump of energy and matter is alive and conscious...
Wrong way around my friend. There's no evidence the universe is conscious, no a priori reason to think it is, and plenty of reasons to think it isn't, chief among them being the lack of evidence that it is. You're the one making the contrary claim, the burden of providing the evidence is on you, not mrgrumpy.
You can make a case for both scenarios. From my point of view, we are part of the Universe and if we define ourselves as conscious, than that makes the Universe conscious, or at least partly conscious. We as humans are not totally conscious (think of dreamless sleep) yet we still define ourselves as conscious. We don't view our stomach as being conscious but still view the whole as conscious. We are a part of the Universe so couldn't that make the whole conscious? If the Universe didn't have the potential for consciousness, our consciousness wouldn't be possible... If we are the only conscious 'part' of the universe than WE are the consciousness of the Universe and the Universe, if seen from a holistic point of view, is conscious.
From another point of view, WE (humans) are not the Universe, we are apart from it, we are a distinct and seperate entity. Then it becomes possible to doubt that the rest is intelligent and to take for granted that it isn't. I prefer to affirm that I simply don't know whether it is conscious or not. I tend to think it is conscious, because it doesn't make sense to me to think that I could be an island of consciousness within a sea of unconsciousness. But that's a personal belief, not knowledge.
Time Out
Posts: 360
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 18th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Maybe you have been watching/reading too much science fiction/astrology or the New Age nonsense...
What man creates and brings to fruition is the result of intent and planning and conscious will - the societies and cultures and civilizations that we are born into and develop and improve.
What does the physcal universe have to show for it's millenia of being, apart from the creation of new masses, migration of matter and endless meanderings in the void?
If your point is that a consciousness controls the physical universe please demonstrate - apart from astrological conjecture and self-serving fantasy - what and who this intelligence may be, what and where it is and why we can not discern it's prescence?
Maybe you have been watching/reading too much science fiction/astrology or the New Age nonsense...
What man creates and brings to fruition is the result of intent and planning and conscious will - the societies and cultures and civilizations that we are born into and develop and improve.
What does the physcal universe have to show for it's millenia of being, apart from the creation of new masses, migration of matter and endless meanderings in the void?
If your point is that a consciousness controls the physical universe please demonstrate - apart from astrological conjecture and self-serving fantasy - what and who this intelligence may be, what and where it is and why we can not discern it's prescence?
Super Genius
Posts: 1,135
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 18th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Imagination is a blessing... But I guess it can also be a curse..
Quoting mrgrumpy
Perhaps... Maybe you haven't been reading/watching enough of it...
Maybe you have been watching/reading too much science fiction/astrology or the New Age nonsense...
Imagination is a blessing... But I guess it can also be a curse.. Quoting mrgrumpy
Then isn't the burden of proof on you to show that there really is such a thing as 'conscious will'? Science has never found anything that could lead us to think our consciousness is anything else but the result of brain chemistry. So according to the logic of science, we are to take 'conscious will' as nothing else but an abstract construct of the brain with the same level of existence as a 'unicorn' or 'luke skywalker'. At least until we can prove scientifically that there is such a thing as 'conscious will'. As long as we don't have that proof, we are to assume that all that goes on in our mind is just the result of chemistry... And that makes us nothing more than very elaborate and complex robots. In that case, NOTHING is truly conscious. Everything is just swirling mechanically in a lifeless mechanistic 3d grid... (or whatever the amount of dimensions our world has)
What man creates and brings to fruition is the result of intent and planning and conscious will - the societies and cultures and civilizations that we are born into and develop and improve.
Quoting mrgrumpy
To me, galaxies, pulsars, rainbows, DNA sequences and ecosystems such as what we have on Earth are pretty admirable 'creations'. Quite comparable to what we humans create.
What does the physcal universe have to show for it's millenia of being, apart from the creation of new masses, migration of matter and endless meanderings in the void?
Quoting mrgrumpy
I don't take my point that far. My true point is that I don't think we can affirm knowing if the rest of the universe is conscious or not. Whether there is any reason to believe it is conscious is entirely subjective, in my point of view.
If your point is that a consciousness controls the physical universe please demonstrate - apart from astrological conjecture and self-serving fantasy - what and who this intelligence may be, what and where it is and why we can not discern it's prescence?
