Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612 
October 28th, 2007, 10:38 PM
Plancks Constant, PI and Picasso.
When does a sculptor or a painter know when the product of their efforts is “finished”?
They don’t!
While the anatomical accuracy of Michelangelo’s ‘David’ is astounding and precise, there continues to be some debate regarding particular almost esoteric anomalies evident in this astounding piece of art. There is a curious irregularity amid the musculature of ‘David’s’ back, and perspective affords the sculpted subject a curious bi-focal and bi-planer gaze that has been the subject of discussion among anatomists for decades. In the same way that Tom Tompson or Paul Cézanne or any other artist for that matter accepts the fact that no human perception can flawlessly and with absolute accuracy mirror the apprehension of nature or anything else in this experience of existence, artists do the best they can with what they’re given in an imperfect and constantly changing reality.
Our physics relies on acceptable limitations imposed by, or if one prefers, dictated to, our awareness of and facility with everything that exists in the realms of not only physics but all science by the unique-ness of our, human perception of “reality”. We employ constants like Planck’s and PI to express the fact that our relationship with this experience of existence is by circumstance and necessity non-absolute and vulnerable to relational dynamics. Bacteria and viral structures redefine themselves, adapt to conditions and change constantly imposing both a conundrum and often a threat to many other life forms including of course, of the human variety of life form.
While every leaf in any artist’s arboreal panorama contributes to human perception of the notion “forest”, the fact is that the discrete individual beauty of every cell and fiber of every leaf isn’t necessarily critical to an understanding of or appreciation for the beauty of the whole. Similarly, just as quantum mechanics relies on declared “constants” like Planck’s, when you visit the hardware store to purchase enough paint to give that propane tank a lasting rust-resistant coat of paint, the calculation of the area of that cylinder is by circumstance indefinite thanks in part to PI….
Now, while it’s not necessary to calculate the surface area of a cylinder or a sphere or many other objects to some precise absolute metric, a liter or a quart of paint with such-and-such ‘coverage’ will suffice and if there’s a little left over in the bottom of the can….well that’s just life!
Pity that so robust an effort is made by religion to declare an absolute morality and so many exhausting dissertations are offered by high-priests and “holy-men” implying an ‘understanding’ of the declared absolutism of the nature of “god”.
While we accept that our interrelationship with our ‘local’ space-time/reality is replete with non-absolutes and we can successfully interact with the substance of our existence to yield survival and for many, a comfortable productive and satisfying experience, the high-priests and the assorted “wise” promulgators of mystical nonsense insist that their particular vision, their particular notions of “god” and of course the “nature of god’s will” is the definitive and absolute knowledge of a species of animals that demonstrates failure after failure to find peace both within itself and among its fellows. Despite thousands of years of hymns, chants, cannibalism (in some cases), poems songs and “scriptures” attested to by these great learned-men as the ultimate wisdom available to the enlightened.
The believer “gets” something for his/her investment. What the believer “gets” is of course unique to a particular individual believer, but ranges from rationalizations that permit bigotry and murder, to popularity and wealth delivered to the “soothsayer” by adoring adherents and the ambitiously hopeful.
Swell. I can understand that “life” can be a scary kind of experience and many “need” some absolute rock some unmoving and immoveable constant reference point in the universe upon which their prejudices and bigotry can depend as their license to replicate intolerance hatred and of course moral “superiority”….
Canadian Content provides “believers” with a canvas, a platform, a vehicle, and if we grant that the believer is performing some altruistic duty to his or her “beliefs”, if absolutely nothing were amiss in the world that became disjointed or cockeyed at the hands of “belief”, despite a plethora of evidence to the contrary, while merely a supercilious waste of time and energy, for the contributor and an imposition on the surfing habits of the reader demanding one skip the syrupy pap in the effort to get to something more substantive….well no harm no foul.
But it certainly does get tired quickly.
Plancks Constant, PI and Picasso.
When does a sculptor or a painter know when the product of their efforts is “finished”?
They don’t!
While the anatomical accuracy of Michelangelo’s ‘David’ is astounding and precise, there continues to be some debate regarding particular almost esoteric anomalies evident in this astounding piece of art. There is a curious irregularity amid the musculature of ‘David’s’ back, and perspective affords the sculpted subject a curious bi-focal and bi-planer gaze that has been the subject of discussion among anatomists for decades. In the same way that Tom Tompson or Paul Cézanne or any other artist for that matter accepts the fact that no human perception can flawlessly and with absolute accuracy mirror the apprehension of nature or anything else in this experience of existence, artists do the best they can with what they’re given in an imperfect and constantly changing reality.
Our physics relies on acceptable limitations imposed by, or if one prefers, dictated to, our awareness of and facility with everything that exists in the realms of not only physics but all science by the unique-ness of our, human perception of “reality”. We employ constants like Planck’s and PI to express the fact that our relationship with this experience of existence is by circumstance and necessity non-absolute and vulnerable to relational dynamics. Bacteria and viral structures redefine themselves, adapt to conditions and change constantly imposing both a conundrum and often a threat to many other life forms including of course, of the human variety of life form.
While every leaf in any artist’s arboreal panorama contributes to human perception of the notion “forest”, the fact is that the discrete individual beauty of every cell and fiber of every leaf isn’t necessarily critical to an understanding of or appreciation for the beauty of the whole. Similarly, just as quantum mechanics relies on declared “constants” like Planck’s, when you visit the hardware store to purchase enough paint to give that propane tank a lasting rust-resistant coat of paint, the calculation of the area of that cylinder is by circumstance indefinite thanks in part to PI….
Now, while it’s not necessary to calculate the surface area of a cylinder or a sphere or many other objects to some precise absolute metric, a liter or a quart of paint with such-and-such ‘coverage’ will suffice and if there’s a little left over in the bottom of the can….well that’s just life!
Pity that so robust an effort is made by religion to declare an absolute morality and so many exhausting dissertations are offered by high-priests and “holy-men” implying an ‘understanding’ of the declared absolutism of the nature of “god”.
While we accept that our interrelationship with our ‘local’ space-time/reality is replete with non-absolutes and we can successfully interact with the substance of our existence to yield survival and for many, a comfortable productive and satisfying experience, the high-priests and the assorted “wise” promulgators of mystical nonsense insist that their particular vision, their particular notions of “god” and of course the “nature of god’s will” is the definitive and absolute knowledge of a species of animals that demonstrates failure after failure to find peace both within itself and among its fellows. Despite thousands of years of hymns, chants, cannibalism (in some cases), poems songs and “scriptures” attested to by these great learned-men as the ultimate wisdom available to the enlightened.
The believer “gets” something for his/her investment. What the believer “gets” is of course unique to a particular individual believer, but ranges from rationalizations that permit bigotry and murder, to popularity and wealth delivered to the “soothsayer” by adoring adherents and the ambitiously hopeful.
Swell. I can understand that “life” can be a scary kind of experience and many “need” some absolute rock some unmoving and immoveable constant reference point in the universe upon which their prejudices and bigotry can depend as their license to replicate intolerance hatred and of course moral “superiority”….
Canadian Content provides “believers” with a canvas, a platform, a vehicle, and if we grant that the believer is performing some altruistic duty to his or her “beliefs”, if absolutely nothing were amiss in the world that became disjointed or cockeyed at the hands of “belief”, despite a plethora of evidence to the contrary, while merely a supercilious waste of time and energy, for the contributor and an imposition on the surfing habits of the reader demanding one skip the syrupy pap in the effort to get to something more substantive….well no harm no foul.
But it certainly does get tired quickly.
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
October 28th, 2007, 11:45 PM
Thanks, MikeyDB
That was quite a post! I have to give it to you, very articulate and very intelligently written.
Now come I, a long shot from being close to your intelligence, but bring something sort of what you explained in this paragraph.
Quote: "The believer “gets” something for his/her investment. What the believer “gets” is of course unique to a particular individual believer, but ranges from rationalizations that permit bigotry and murder, to popularity and wealth delivered to the “soothsayer” by adoring adherents and the ambitiously hopeful."
All of the above are true as written on the one side, but on the other side there is peace of mind, contentment in hard times, strength in faith to preserver, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness for evil done.
That is what is great about the gift of choice.
Without that gift, there would be nothing of contrast to make a choice with.
And as you said, "The believer “gets” something for his/her investment"and I add, either for the good or for the evil.
My investment has been a determined effort to learn all I can about the God who deals with mankind in the many ways as there are religions.
Now if, the rest of Christianity were to see it the same way, you won't have much to contend with.
Peace>>>AJ
Thanks, MikeyDB
That was quite a post! I have to give it to you, very articulate and very intelligently written.
Now come I, a long shot from being close to your intelligence, but bring something sort of what you explained in this paragraph.
Quote: "The believer “gets” something for his/her investment. What the believer “gets” is of course unique to a particular individual believer, but ranges from rationalizations that permit bigotry and murder, to popularity and wealth delivered to the “soothsayer” by adoring adherents and the ambitiously hopeful."
All of the above are true as written on the one side, but on the other side there is peace of mind, contentment in hard times, strength in faith to preserver, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness for evil done.
That is what is great about the gift of choice.
Without that gift, there would be nothing of contrast to make a choice with.
And as you said, "The believer “gets” something for his/her investment"and I add, either for the good or for the evil.
My investment has been a determined effort to learn all I can about the God who deals with mankind in the many ways as there are religions.
Now if, the rest of Christianity were to see it the same way, you won't have much to contend with.
Peace>>>AJ
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
October 29th, 2007, 08:12 AM
Happily my existence isn't about discovering and understanding the nature of "god".
You believe; "My investment has been a determined effort to learn all I can about the God who deals with mankind in the many ways as there are religions." If we subscribe to this idea that we have an innate predisposition to learn all I can about god....isn't there a game of some kind being played here? In the spirit of this belief, as beings created in the image of god, is it reasonable or unreasonable to consider that "god-ness" must by the logic of this interrelatinship exist within each and every individual? What would lead you to believe that your particular idea or "construct" of "god" is any more correct/valuable/accurate than anyone else's?
Not that it matters of course and I suppose you could say that it's god's contribution to the "mystery of life"....
Or
Maybe you've missed the imporance of embracing reality in favor of clinging desperately to fantasy...but in the end it's only something important to you so carry on...
Happily my existence isn't about discovering and understanding the nature of "god".
You believe; "My investment has been a determined effort to learn all I can about the God who deals with mankind in the many ways as there are religions." If we subscribe to this idea that we have an innate predisposition to learn all I can about god....isn't there a game of some kind being played here? In the spirit of this belief, as beings created in the image of god, is it reasonable or unreasonable to consider that "god-ness" must by the logic of this interrelatinship exist within each and every individual? What would lead you to believe that your particular idea or "construct" of "god" is any more correct/valuable/accurate than anyone else's?
Not that it matters of course and I suppose you could say that it's god's contribution to the "mystery of life"....
Or
Maybe you've missed the imporance of embracing reality in favor of clinging desperately to fantasy...but in the end it's only something important to you so carry on...
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
October 29th, 2007, 10:59 AM
What I am saying is that my belief in the way I understand it takes in the whole of mankind's beliefs and unites them into one body, whether a believer or an unbeliever, still yet one body, and that God takes that one body as payment for the redemption of all mankind.
That body of which I speak was prepared especially for that purpose and for accomplishing that which God already knew and planed from the very first human being to accomplish.
Both Adams where created for that purpose.
The first to give life to the flesh and the second to give life to our spirits.
With respect to including all religious beliefs, believers and unbelievers, Yes, I believe that my understanding of God's love covers the whole gambit of people for all generations and for all time.
I believe this understanding tops them all because it excludes no one, where others do.
My understanding, no ones goes to hell as believed, but rather that a hell can be made of this earth and for many, would need rescuing.
God is an all consuming fire which burns (Purifies)not the material but the spiritual as gold is refined to it's purest form.
If we can know and understand that, then we above many can have compassion for those who don't.
Love, is God, and God is love, without it, life is absolutely of no worth.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting MikeyDB
That's an honest question. I am not saying that my Conner on belief is the correct one above all others.
Happily my existence isn't about discovering and understanding the nature of "god".
You believe; "My investment has been a determined effort to learn all I can about the God who deals with mankind in the many ways as there are religions." If we subscribe to this idea that we have an innate predisposition to learn all I can about god....isn't there a game of some kind being played here? In the spirit of this belief, as beings created in the image of god, is it reasonable or unreasonable to consider that "god-ness" must by the logic of this interrelatinship exist within each and every individual? What would lead you to believe that your particular idea or "construct" of "god" is any more correct/valuable/accurate than anyone else's?
Not that it matters of course and I suppose you could say that it's god's contribution to the "mystery of life"....
Or
Maybe you've missed the imporance of embracing reality in favor of clinging desperately to fantasy...but in the end it's only something important to you so carry on...
You believe; "My investment has been a determined effort to learn all I can about the God who deals with mankind in the many ways as there are religions." If we subscribe to this idea that we have an innate predisposition to learn all I can about god....isn't there a game of some kind being played here? In the spirit of this belief, as beings created in the image of god, is it reasonable or unreasonable to consider that "god-ness" must by the logic of this interrelatinship exist within each and every individual? What would lead you to believe that your particular idea or "construct" of "god" is any more correct/valuable/accurate than anyone else's?
Not that it matters of course and I suppose you could say that it's god's contribution to the "mystery of life"....
Or
Maybe you've missed the imporance of embracing reality in favor of clinging desperately to fantasy...but in the end it's only something important to you so carry on...
What I am saying is that my belief in the way I understand it takes in the whole of mankind's beliefs and unites them into one body, whether a believer or an unbeliever, still yet one body, and that God takes that one body as payment for the redemption of all mankind.
That body of which I speak was prepared especially for that purpose and for accomplishing that which God already knew and planed from the very first human being to accomplish.
Both Adams where created for that purpose.
The first to give life to the flesh and the second to give life to our spirits.
Quote:
What would lead you to believe that your particular idea or "construct" of "god" is any more correct/valuable/accurate than anyone else's?>>>
With respect to including all religious beliefs, believers and unbelievers, Yes, I believe that my understanding of God's love covers the whole gambit of people for all generations and for all time.
I believe this understanding tops them all because it excludes no one, where others do.
My understanding, no ones goes to hell as believed, but rather that a hell can be made of this earth and for many, would need rescuing.
God is an all consuming fire which burns (Purifies)not the material but the spiritual as gold is refined to it's purest form.
If we can know and understand that, then we above many can have compassion for those who don't.
Love, is God, and God is love, without it, life is absolutely of no worth.
Peace>>>AJ
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
October 29th, 2007, 11:36 AM
And what does an omniponent all powerful all seeing entity have invested in "worth"?
What possible "worth" can life have, given that it was according to your personal philosophy and beliefs created by an entity that created the sin for which a death at the hands of humanity was an apriori necessity? If an entity had the capacity and means to "create" perfection..(mankind created in the image of a perfect creator god..) isn't it more likely that "life" is an amusement given to inanimate matter? Perhaps you can clarify for the interested what perfection looks like....
Not the "idea" of perfection, but give us an example of a universal absolute perfection that each living sentient being can apprehend without scrolls of dogma and tomes of rhetoric...
What "purpose" is served by generating a self-replicating biological system that is fundamentally flawed at the onset? If one must "learn" about "god" and that "learning-about-god" yields sufficient perfection to elicit the creators "forgiveness"....
Isn't the "purpose" of your beliefs and philosophy to find a rationale, a "meaning" to your existence that "fits" the construct you've voluntarily subscribed-to as your "belief"?
There is no "meaning" to life AJ, particularly when you can consider an alternative existence to that experienced by humanity (and all "life" for that matter) if in fact creation is the exercise of a perfect being....
What purpose would a perfect creator being have in creating a circumstance wherein the "flaw" of "knowledge" contaminated otherwise perfect copies of it/her/himself...
What purpose is served by "learning" all about something you have absolutely no means of "understanding"?
You believe (perhaps) that the evil of death is overcome by the sacrifice predicated on the "flaw" innate to the creation of a perfect creator being....
Isn't all this rather circular....
And what does an omniponent all powerful all seeing entity have invested in "worth"?
What possible "worth" can life have, given that it was according to your personal philosophy and beliefs created by an entity that created the sin for which a death at the hands of humanity was an apriori necessity? If an entity had the capacity and means to "create" perfection..(mankind created in the image of a perfect creator god..) isn't it more likely that "life" is an amusement given to inanimate matter? Perhaps you can clarify for the interested what perfection looks like....
Not the "idea" of perfection, but give us an example of a universal absolute perfection that each living sentient being can apprehend without scrolls of dogma and tomes of rhetoric...
What "purpose" is served by generating a self-replicating biological system that is fundamentally flawed at the onset? If one must "learn" about "god" and that "learning-about-god" yields sufficient perfection to elicit the creators "forgiveness"....
Isn't the "purpose" of your beliefs and philosophy to find a rationale, a "meaning" to your existence that "fits" the construct you've voluntarily subscribed-to as your "belief"?
There is no "meaning" to life AJ, particularly when you can consider an alternative existence to that experienced by humanity (and all "life" for that matter) if in fact creation is the exercise of a perfect being....
What purpose would a perfect creator being have in creating a circumstance wherein the "flaw" of "knowledge" contaminated otherwise perfect copies of it/her/himself...
What purpose is served by "learning" all about something you have absolutely no means of "understanding"?
You believe (perhaps) that the evil of death is overcome by the sacrifice predicated on the "flaw" innate to the creation of a perfect creator being....
Isn't all this rather circular....
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
October 29th, 2007, 02:12 PM
You know, that is a very interesting word, worth.
There are two distinct values to worth in humanity as I see it.
There is Godly worth and personal human worth.
The Godly worth is in His creation, and He will make of it a completion of perfection.
The ability to reason, and make choices is God given with a consequence.
The consequence is that we must negotiate earth’s obstacle course with or without Him.
As we are made flesh we are separated from God and are dead to His relationship in order to give us mastery of our own lives, as if we were gods.
The second worth is our own personal worth. How much respect do we owe ourselves?
We first must be able to love ourselves before trying to love someone else.
If our lives are felt worthy, then we want to maximize it in efforts to help others.
We find worth in others worth helping, saving and loving.
Jesus was asked of which one was the greatest of commandments, and He replied: there are two: Love God as He sees our worth, and love our neighbor as we see their worth.
The first takes in the first 5 commandments and the second takes in the next five commandments.
The first five are heavenly and the second five are earthly.
If you can see worth in helping, loving, others regardless of religious beliefs, you have self worth.
Perfection is God. And we can only be perfect in Him. When we die, we leave this imperfect body and gain a perfect heavenly body, fine tuned and purified, tried in the furnace of His love.
First, nobody can physically attain heavenly perfection while on earth, for the flesh is corruptible.
But, our spirits can! What goes on to live is our spirits after we die.
But here is the beauty of this whole thing, in that we are given to experience hell and yet not being sacrificed to the eternal abyss without God.
The best thing one can do first as an unbeliever is to live life loving life, our neighbor.
Doing what we deem right, being honest and truthful in all things.
For the believer, is to adhere to those same terms with gratitude, for the life given to experience trials and tribulations in joy.
Unfortunately, because of the human element of worldliness, there are those who would take advantage of God goodness to further their own agendas.
Intelligence is a gift to an earthly vessel. A matter of choice to be one’s own self, to exercise whatever we choose whether it be good or evil.
That is allowable but not without consequence.
To learn about God, which I believe is an instinct like thing in all of us, is there, so that we may rely on Him who created us as strength through our trials and tribulations.
Many sacrificed to gods of their own makings in order to appease some bad misfortune.
They had no idea what they were doing and are credited with salvation as you and I are by the one sacrifice of Jesus.
Yes, and that is why I questioned my beliefs as I was experiencing all the various beliefs, so that I would in my mind heart and soul, be correct as I could in understanding my creator.
You pretty much read allot of my posts and you have witnessed that I don’t fit the typical Christian standards?
It is because I believe I have found the correct understanding which I believe includes every soul that ever lived into one body, and loved by the creator.
Life is not in trying to be perfect, because we never could! But life is in experiencing imperfection so that we may learn to understand the perfect, which is God only.
To begin with, the story of Adam’s fall is attributed to Adams fault, but I see it as God’s fault. He is the one who gave us the ability to gain intelligence, so He is responsible for what you consider a flaw.
But instead it was an intended design and no fault of humanity.
But that did not free us from our own misdeeds, for we are solely accountable yet while we are alive.
But there is means of understanding.
First it comes from hearing the good news, then we go on to learn more about it.
Allot of folk have no time or patience to hear about God while things are going good, but many either through a devastating injury, or closeness to death, suddenly, as though instinctively, call out to God.
And God never turns anybody away, ever!
Two deaths are within all of us. First: the death of the physical then of the spirit.
The latter part is what was taken care for us, but the first, we must all taste of.
I believe that there is one existence of a physical life, once and no more.
Once we’ve existed, never again will we taste of death.
If a believer can not love and unbeliever for it souls worth, then that believer’s belief is in error.
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
And what does an omnipotent all powerful all seeing entity have invested in "worth"?>>>MikeyDB
You know, that is a very interesting word, worth.
There are two distinct values to worth in humanity as I see it.
There is Godly worth and personal human worth.
The Godly worth is in His creation, and He will make of it a completion of perfection.
The ability to reason, and make choices is God given with a consequence.
The consequence is that we must negotiate earth’s obstacle course with or without Him.
As we are made flesh we are separated from God and are dead to His relationship in order to give us mastery of our own lives, as if we were gods.
The second worth is our own personal worth. How much respect do we owe ourselves?
We first must be able to love ourselves before trying to love someone else.
If our lives are felt worthy, then we want to maximize it in efforts to help others.
We find worth in others worth helping, saving and loving.
Jesus was asked of which one was the greatest of commandments, and He replied: there are two: Love God as He sees our worth, and love our neighbor as we see their worth.
The first takes in the first 5 commandments and the second takes in the next five commandments.
The first five are heavenly and the second five are earthly.
Quote:
What possible "worth" can life have, given that it was according to your personal philosophy and beliefs created by an entity that created the sin for which a death at the hands of humanity was an apriori necessity? If an entity had the capacity and means to "create" perfection..(mankind created in the image of a perfect creator god..) isn't it more likely that "life" is an amusement given to inanimate matter? >>>MikeyDB
If you can see worth in helping, loving, others regardless of religious beliefs, you have self worth.
Quote:
Perhaps you can clarify for the interested what perfection looks like....>>>MikeyDB
Perfection is God. And we can only be perfect in Him. When we die, we leave this imperfect body and gain a perfect heavenly body, fine tuned and purified, tried in the furnace of His love.
Quote:
Not the "idea" of perfection, but give us an example of a universal absolute perfection that each living sentient being can apprehend without scrolls of dogma and tomes of rhetoric...MikeyDB
First, nobody can physically attain heavenly perfection while on earth, for the flesh is corruptible.
But, our spirits can! What goes on to live is our spirits after we die.
But here is the beauty of this whole thing, in that we are given to experience hell and yet not being sacrificed to the eternal abyss without God.
The best thing one can do first as an unbeliever is to live life loving life, our neighbor.
Doing what we deem right, being honest and truthful in all things.
For the believer, is to adhere to those same terms with gratitude, for the life given to experience trials and tribulations in joy.
Unfortunately, because of the human element of worldliness, there are those who would take advantage of God goodness to further their own agendas.
Quote:
What "purpose" is served by generating a self-replicating biological system that is fundamentally flawed at the onset? If one must "learn" about "god" and that "learning-about-god" yields sufficient perfection to elicit the creators "forgiveness"....MikeyDB
Intelligence is a gift to an earthly vessel. A matter of choice to be one’s own self, to exercise whatever we choose whether it be good or evil.
That is allowable but not without consequence.
To learn about God, which I believe is an instinct like thing in all of us, is there, so that we may rely on Him who created us as strength through our trials and tribulations.
Many sacrificed to gods of their own makings in order to appease some bad misfortune.
They had no idea what they were doing and are credited with salvation as you and I are by the one sacrifice of Jesus.
Quote:
Isn't the "purpose" of your beliefs and philosophy to find a rationale, a "meaning" to your existence that "fits" the construct you've voluntarily subscribed-to as your "belief"? >>>MikeyDB
Yes, and that is why I questioned my beliefs as I was experiencing all the various beliefs, so that I would in my mind heart and soul, be correct as I could in understanding my creator.
You pretty much read allot of my posts and you have witnessed that I don’t fit the typical Christian standards?
It is because I believe I have found the correct understanding which I believe includes every soul that ever lived into one body, and loved by the creator.
Quote:
There is no "meaning" to life AJ, particularly when you can consider an alternative existence to that experienced by humanity (and all "life" for that matter) if in fact creation is the exercise of a perfect being....MikeyDB
Life is not in trying to be perfect, because we never could! But life is in experiencing imperfection so that we may learn to understand the perfect, which is God only.
Quote:
What purpose would a perfect creator being have in creating a circumstance wherein the "flaw" of "knowledge" contaminated otherwise perfect copies of it/her/himself...MikeyDB
To begin with, the story of Adam’s fall is attributed to Adams fault, but I see it as God’s fault. He is the one who gave us the ability to gain intelligence, so He is responsible for what you consider a flaw.
But instead it was an intended design and no fault of humanity.
But that did not free us from our own misdeeds, for we are solely accountable yet while we are alive.
Quote:
What purpose is served by "learning" all about something you have absolutely no means of "understanding"? >>>MikeyDB
But there is means of understanding.
First it comes from hearing the good news, then we go on to learn more about it.
Allot of folk have no time or patience to hear about God while things are going good, but many either through a devastating injury, or closeness to death, suddenly, as though instinctively, call out to God.
And God never turns anybody away, ever!
Quote:
You believe (perhaps) that the evil of death is overcome by the sacrifice predicated on the "flaw" innate to the creation of a perfect creator being....MikeyDB
Two deaths are within all of us. First: the death of the physical then of the spirit.
The latter part is what was taken care for us, but the first, we must all taste of.
Quote:
Isn't all this rather circular....MikeyDB
I believe that there is one existence of a physical life, once and no more.
Once we’ve existed, never again will we taste of death.
If a believer can not love and unbeliever for it souls worth, then that believer’s belief is in error.
Peace>>>AJ
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
October 30th, 2007, 11:59 PM
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Thrones = those in power, especially the ones able to send Jesus to the cross= High priest, Judas, and the Roman government.
Those that sat on those thrones, Judgment was given them over the One being judged.
They were the ones beheaded for a witness of Jesus, meaning that, in order to make Jesus a true sacrifice, these souls first born status with God was cut off by Jesus when He said to them, “Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Which to them meant; that God as they knew Him was cut off and had to now go through Jesus. Hence the judgment of blasphemy on Jesus.
And of course, Jesus being a symbol of the Lamb of God, a beast, they did not worship Him, neither what He stood for (Image) nor did they any work to promote His message.
They lived and reigned with Christ that one day. (A thousand years)
Ref:
“one Day” 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Those that participated in Christ’s crucifixion reigned in their proper place as Christ did His on that one day.
“thrones” Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Those who sat in Judgment of Christ, technically sat in judgment of the whole world, for the whole worlds sins were laid on Christ.
“beheaded”
Deu 21:6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
There are two symbolic be-headings, Jesus beheads the high priest, and they in turn behead Jesus of His title, King of the Jews.
Jesus’ beheading of the Jesus is in requiring them to come through Him to get to the Father.
Their beheading of Jesus, is to crucify Him, denying Him the Kingship that was His.
“Witness of Jesus” is declaring Him an impostor, a blasphemer, thus for that Jesus beheads them.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
“…and for the word of God”…the word, as given by God to Moses to the people, is the structure belief that caused them to deny Jesus,, and by which were blinded from seeing Jesus as the true Messiah.
Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Jesus was accused of working on the Sabbath.
We can than see from this verse, that the beast is Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by He becoming the sins of the world in Himself.
Religion is so bound by its own misunderstandings of these verses, that divisions are it's consequence.
Peace>>>AJ
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Thrones = those in power, especially the ones able to send Jesus to the cross= High priest, Judas, and the Roman government.
Those that sat on those thrones, Judgment was given them over the One being judged.
They were the ones beheaded for a witness of Jesus, meaning that, in order to make Jesus a true sacrifice, these souls first born status with God was cut off by Jesus when He said to them, “Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Which to them meant; that God as they knew Him was cut off and had to now go through Jesus. Hence the judgment of blasphemy on Jesus.
And of course, Jesus being a symbol of the Lamb of God, a beast, they did not worship Him, neither what He stood for (Image) nor did they any work to promote His message.
They lived and reigned with Christ that one day. (A thousand years)
Ref:
“one Day” 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Those that participated in Christ’s crucifixion reigned in their proper place as Christ did His on that one day.
“thrones” Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Those who sat in Judgment of Christ, technically sat in judgment of the whole world, for the whole worlds sins were laid on Christ.
“beheaded”
Deu 21:6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
There are two symbolic be-headings, Jesus beheads the high priest, and they in turn behead Jesus of His title, King of the Jews.
Jesus’ beheading of the Jesus is in requiring them to come through Him to get to the Father.
Their beheading of Jesus, is to crucify Him, denying Him the Kingship that was His.
“Witness of Jesus” is declaring Him an impostor, a blasphemer, thus for that Jesus beheads them.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
“…and for the word of God”…the word, as given by God to Moses to the people, is the structure belief that caused them to deny Jesus,, and by which were blinded from seeing Jesus as the true Messiah.
Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Jesus was accused of working on the Sabbath.
We can than see from this verse, that the beast is Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by He becoming the sins of the world in Himself.
Religion is so bound by its own misunderstandings of these verses, that divisions are it's consequence.
Peace>>>AJ
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
October 31st, 2007, 10:39 AM
Anyone else care to disscuss this subject?
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting MikeyDB
No argument there!
Remember what I said about dogma and tomes of rhetoric?
Thank you for providing the only answer you can.
Dogma and tomes of rhetoric.
Thank you for providing the only answer you can.
Dogma and tomes of rhetoric.
Anyone else care to disscuss this subject?
Peace>>>AJ
Bright Spark
Posts: 327
Location: Ont
Location: Ont
November 1st, 2007, 06:00 PM
So there is no concern really. Nasty things are a given and scripture says so and Satan has full reign to create havoc in the meanwhile. Our obligation is to worship and discern what is appropriate conduct and simply be good servants until that celestial train picks us up and takes us home.
AndyF
Quoting look3467
Actually Christians don't worry about the end times at all. Every day they look forward to the day that their exile is ended. While they wait they live every day as if it were their last and they prepare themselves spiritually and ensure their souls are not blemished at all times.
Trust me Vereya, as a Christian, I was inwardly terrified of the end times ..................
Peace>>>AJ
Peace>>>AJ
So there is no concern really. Nasty things are a given and scripture says so and Satan has full reign to create havoc in the meanwhile. Our obligation is to worship and discern what is appropriate conduct and simply be good servants until that celestial train picks us up and takes us home.
AndyF
Bright Spark
Posts: 327
Location: Ont
Location: Ont
November 1st, 2007, 06:08 PM
AndyF
Quoting look3467
Disagree. Christ instructs us to "be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect". These words confirm that God is in heaven and we, "on earth, right now" can attain perfection. Jesus meant it literally and in the present sense. First, nobody can physically attain heavenly perfection while on earth,
Peace>>>AJ
Peace>>>AJ
AndyF
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
November 1st, 2007, 07:29 PM
That is why there is so much interest in the end times? Look at the amount of books sold.
Though Christians believe in Jesus, yet there is no true understandings of the end times, therefore what one does not understand, there is a tendency to fear.
Christian are divided on the Rapture as a means of escaping all that mess they believe will come to pass.
The pre-trib, mid-trib and post tribulation raptures are just speculations and not of certain.
As long as people hope than there is no wrong in it.
Understanding the similitude of the beast as Jesus, is Jesus taking all of the worlds sin burden on Himself, thus the magnitude of sin is a monster of a beast.
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
That is what it is the general Christian view, but there is still some apprehension for lack of true evidence of truth in all those things supposed things coming through.
Actually Christians don't worry about the end times at all. Every day they look forward to the day that their exile is ended. While they wait they live every day as if it were their last and they prepare themselves spiritually and ensure their souls are not blemished at all times.>>>Andy
That is why there is so much interest in the end times? Look at the amount of books sold.
Though Christians believe in Jesus, yet there is no true understandings of the end times, therefore what one does not understand, there is a tendency to fear.
Christian are divided on the Rapture as a means of escaping all that mess they believe will come to pass.
The pre-trib, mid-trib and post tribulation raptures are just speculations and not of certain.
As long as people hope than there is no wrong in it.
Quote:
Now I will agree with your last sentence, but the first, havoc is all man made induced for the greed and the lusts of the flesh.
So there is no concern really. Nasty things are a given and scripture says so and Satan has full reign to create havoc in the meanwhile. Our obligation is to worship and discern what is appropriate conduct and simply be good servants until that celestial train picks us up and takes us home. >>>Andy
Understanding the similitude of the beast as Jesus, is Jesus taking all of the worlds sin burden on Himself, thus the magnitude of sin is a monster of a beast.
Peace>>>AJ
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
November 1st, 2007, 07:34 PM
Yet we sin everyday in one way or another signifying that without the blood of Jesus there is no hope.
If You are born again, Jesus to you has come again into your heart and need not that He come again into this world as thought.
I trust all good folk try to live their lives as best as they can, and to my understanding, they are all safe.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting AndyF
Yes, your very right. But remember, only if we are born of the spirit of God that we sin not.
Disagree. Christ instructs us to "be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect". These words confirm that God is in heaven and we, "on earth, right now" can attain perfection. Jesus meant it literally and in the present sense.
AndyF
AndyF
Yet we sin everyday in one way or another signifying that without the blood of Jesus there is no hope.
If You are born again, Jesus to you has come again into your heart and need not that He come again into this world as thought.
I trust all good folk try to live their lives as best as they can, and to my understanding, they are all safe.
Peace>>>AJ
House Member
Posts: 3,508
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
November 1st, 2007, 09:44 PM
Who is it? I thought we'd settled that you think it's Jesus and I think it's the Roman Empire, while the specific person with the number 666 is someone contemporary with the time the book was written, probably an officer of the Empire. It's about current events at the time, couched in symbolism and metaphor--for reasons of deniability, given the political situation--but the target audience (which is not us) would have understood who it was, while we lack the information to give a definitive answer to who the guy was.
Anybody got any other ideas?
Who is it? I thought we'd settled that you think it's Jesus and I think it's the Roman Empire, while the specific person with the number 666 is someone contemporary with the time the book was written, probably an officer of the Empire. It's about current events at the time, couched in symbolism and metaphor--for reasons of deniability, given the political situation--but the target audience (which is not us) would have understood who it was, while we lack the information to give a definitive answer to who the guy was.
Anybody got any other ideas?
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
November 1st, 2007, 10:15 PM
The pictures seen in the bible have allot to do with the events taken placwe at the time of their writings as you pointed out, and God uses them to, because it is sometyhing that we can understand or relate to.
What makes Jesus the mother of Harlots, is that He is the lover of all mankind, and to the Jews and according to thier belief structure is a no no.
We then must learn how those things are used in the message so that we may have a better understanding.
So God uses those things which are...here let me quote that scripture:
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Peace>>>AJ
But if one has understanding, none of it offends.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Yes, but Northboy chimed in and so I addressed his post.
Who is it? I thought we'd settled that you think it's Jesus and I think it's the Roman Empire, while the specific person with the number 666 is someone contemporary with the time the book was written, probably an officer of the Empire. It's about current events at the time, couched in symbolism and metaphor--for reasons of deniability, given the political situation--but the target audience (which is not us) would have understood who it was, while we lack the information to give a definitive answer to who the guy was.
Anybody got any other ideas?
Anybody got any other ideas?
The pictures seen in the bible have allot to do with the events taken placwe at the time of their writings as you pointed out, and God uses them to, because it is sometyhing that we can understand or relate to.
What makes Jesus the mother of Harlots, is that He is the lover of all mankind, and to the Jews and according to thier belief structure is a no no.
We then must learn how those things are used in the message so that we may have a better understanding.
So God uses those things which are...here let me quote that scripture:
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Peace>>>AJ
But if one has understanding, none of it offends.
Bright Spark
Posts: 327
Location: Ont
Location: Ont
November 2nd, 2007, 07:18 AM
He(God's son) sacrificed himself to right a wrong committed by others(man), not by himself. He does not identify with the sins, they are long past and continue to be born in these days.
If there were one Religion as it should be there could not be other religions to dispute. That Religion is the sound one has Christ founded it.
AndyF
Quoting look3467
This is blasphemy. The Lamb is not the cause for his sacrifice. We can than see from this verse, that the beast is Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by He becoming the sins of the world in Himself.
Religion is so bound by its own misunderstandings of these verses, that divisions are it's consequence.
Peace>>>AJ
Religion is so bound by its own misunderstandings of these verses, that divisions are it's consequence.
Peace>>>AJ
He(God's son) sacrificed himself to right a wrong committed by others(man), not by himself. He does not identify with the sins, they are long past and continue to be born in these days.
If there were one Religion as it should be there could not be other religions to dispute. That Religion is the sound one has Christ founded it.
AndyF
