What is true religion .

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
72
Ottawa ,Canada
. Many people do not like that word, they think it is rather old fashioned and has very little meaning in this modern world. And there are those who are religious at the weekend; they turn out well dressed on Sunday morning and do all the mischief they can during the week.When I'm using the word `religion' I'm not in any way concerned with organized religions, churches, dogmas, rituals, or the authority of saviours, representatives of God and all the rest. I'm talking about something quite different.It seems human beings, in the past, as in the present, have always asked if there is something transcendental, much more real than the everyday existence with all its tiresome routine, its violence, despairs and sorrow. But not being able to find it, they have worshipped a symbol, giving it great significance.To find out if there is something really true and sacred (I am using that word rather hesitantly) we must look for something not put together by desire and hope, by fear and longing; not dependent on environment, culture and education, but something that thought has never touched, something that is totally and incomprehensibly new.I think that without finding that, however virtuous, however orderly, however non-violent one is, life in itself has very little meaning. Religion in the sense in which we are using that word, where there is no kind of fear or belief - is the quality that makes for a life in which there is no fragmentation whatsoever. If we are going to enquire into that, we must not only be free of all belief, but also we must be very clear about the distorting factor of all effort, direction and purpose.I hope that you see the importance of this; if you are at all serious in this matter it is very important to understand how any form of effort distorts direct perception. And any form of suppression obviously also distorts, as does any form of direction born of choice, of established purpose, created by one's own desire; all these things make the mind utterly incapable of seeing things as they are.ught, of will, the result of suppression, it is no longer virtue. But if you understand the disorder of your life, the confusion, the utter meaninglessness of our existence, when you see all that very clearly, not merely intellectually and verbally, but not condemning it, not running away from it, but observing it in life, then out of that awareness and observation comes order, naturally which is virtue. This virtue is entirely different from the virtue of society, with its respectability, the sanctions of the religions with their hypocrisy; it is entirely different from one's own self-imposed discipline.

Please, your thoughts...
 
Last edited:

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
Each to his own. We can muddy the water in a thousand different ways. In the end, we make our own choice. But I do hope how we live our lives is more important than what we choose to believe.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
I'll stick to Merriam-Webster's definition (I don't like muddy things).

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at [SIZE=-1]RELY[/SIZE]
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : [SIZE=-1]CONSCIENTIOUSNESS[/SIZE]
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
It sounds to me like you're confusing the terms 'religious' and 'spiritual'. But, I must admit to not fully understanding some of the sections of your post, so I could be wrong.
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
72
Ottawa ,Canada
L Gilbert ,
I'll stick to Merriam-Webster's definition (I don't like muddy things).

Hi L Gilbert , good to see you back and talk with you again.

What is s dictionary if not a collection of words and their meanings which we have agreed upon.
What are words ? , are they something holy ,are the meaning of the words something absolute , can you find reality using words .Obviously we are using words now in order to comunicate and we have to, but in order to understand the timeless , the unknown there is no place for words .
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
When I'm using the word `religion' I'm not in any way concerned with organized religions, churches, dogmas, rituals, or the authority of saviours, representatives of God and all the rest.
...
Please, your thoughts...
My first thought, which I'd bet heavily Gil would share, is that religion isn't actually what you're thinking about. You're thinking of the ages-old human search for what I've seen described as "the numinous and transcendent," of which religion is but one possible expression. My own delving into that search has convinced me that there's nothing to look for, all such experiences exist only inside our own heads and represent just a particular electrochemical state in the brain which can be induced in a variety of ways, like sensory deprivation, certain drugs, direct electrical stimulation, emotional or physical stress, illness and fever, meditation, and so on. There's no external reality to it, in my opinion.
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
72
Ottawa ,Canada
Hi Karrie

It sounds to me like you're confusing the terms 'religious' and 'spiritual'. But, I must admit to not fully understanding some of the sections of your post, so I could be wrong.______________

Hi,please tell me how do you understand the words religion and spirituality.I have a flight to catch in about an hour and half , but will continue with the post in a later time.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
L Gilbert ,
I'll stick to Merriam-Webster's definition (I don't like muddy things).

Hi L Gilbert , good to see you back and talk with you again.

What is s dictionary if not a collection of words and their meanings which we have agreed upon.
What are words ? , are they something holy ,are the meaning of the words something absolute , can you find reality using words .Obviously we are using words now in order to comunicate and we have to, but in order to understand the timeless , the unknown there is no place for words .
Words are simply a method of communication. People use them to convey feelings, ideas, etc. and if we don't use the same definitions, the communications will be askew. When someone mentions "apple" to me, I picture a nice tasty Gravenstein or Golden delicious; I don't picture oranges. As far as timeless things goes, I prefer just to describe such things as "timeless". :D Unknown things are simply unknown and therefore are undescribable so I can't think of pictures to attach to them and hence, cannot describe them in communication other than to say "unknown".
Um, thanks for the "WelcomeBack", China. :)

Um, Dex is right: my view on things religious is that they are constructs of human imaginations.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
70
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
BTW, Merriam-Webster's version of spirituality is
One entry found for spirituality.
Main Entry: spir·i·tu·al·i·ty
Pronunciation:
spir-i-ch
-
wa-l
-t

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : [SIZE=-1]CLERGY[/SIZE]
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Hi Karrie

....please tell me how do you understand the words religion and spirituality.I have a flight to catch in about an hour and half , but will continue with the post in a later time.

To boil it down to its very basics, spirituality is the feeling of connection to some deeper power in the universe. How we perceive that power varies greatly from person to person, but the search for it, the endeavor to understand it, is what would be called spirituality.

Religion on the other hand, is a set of rituals and objects often used in that quest.

They are not the same thing, and trying to make them interchangable, as the boys have so nicely pointed out, muddies the discussion. It makes it difficult to ensure that you are discussing the same thing.

For example, many spiritual people loathe religion. If they stand up and say 'I hate religion', they are not denouncing the spiritual quest, but merely the trappings, rituals, and dogma which so often accompany it.

Knowing exactly what the other person is talking about, having set definitions, is very important to prevent misunderstanding.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
And yet in basic terms it's impossible to be spiritual without being religious. No man is an island... but all carry within them the church of their own being and consciousness. Tom Harpur has always called it "the Christ within." We all possess the ability to feel connection. Religion becomes personal. And in this we recognize our spirituality.
 

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,651
18
38
I know what you mean.

Its like confession.

We get these people who are utter disgraceful during the week, and do not at all practise their religion, but they always attend every Sunday...

quite hypocritical.
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
72
Ottawa ,Canada
karrie
person to person, but the search for it, the endeavor to understand it, is what would be called spirituality.

First ,I fond out that I,m flying out later so I'll be on a line as long as I can.

___I think that it's obvious that if we "search", it has to be something we already know -we can't search for something unknown ,if we did how would we know when we find someting "unknown".
In order to find something ,we have to recognize it ,and if we do so it means that we have allready knew it ;and its nothing new.
Religion and Spirtuality are only words ,and the words are not the thing .If for example I'llask a botanist a painter a theologist a high school boy or a farme to describe a tree ,Their descriptions will not be the same even though the are using words of the same language. It is my awarness that words are a part of most primitive way of comunication. But now we have to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: L Gilbert

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
I think that it's obvious that if we "search", it has to be something we already know -we can't search for something unknown ,if we did how would we know when we find someting "unknown".
In order to find something ,we have to recognize it ,and if we do so it means that we have allready knew it ;and its nothing new.
It's not obvious at all. You appear to be claiming that we can't ever learn anything new. Recognizing something new to you in no sense implies that you already knew it. I wasn't born knowing multivariate vector calculus, for instance, but I know it now, up to a point at least, so at some point it must have been new to me and I recognized it as something I didn't know. Moreover, there was a time when nobody knew it, it was invented and developed by people searching for ways to solve certain kinds of problems, and it must have been new to them at some point too.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
bliss
Religion and Spirtuality are only words ,and the words are not the thing .If for example I'llask a botanist a painter a theologist a high school boy or a farme to describe a tree ,Their descriptions will not be the same even though the are using words of the same language. It is my awarness that words are a part of most primitive way of comunication. But now we have to.

Well, if you want to have a discussion with another person about an idea, the words ARE the thing, or the discussion is quite pointless. You could sit here and discuss religion, but, if we are not discussing the same thing, in the same context, then there is no point for me to be here, you are merely talking to yourself, and I to myself. It would be fruitless.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
Religion is interesting to me, in no different way than, to learn about anything, just to be informed, so that when one is in a conversation, one doens't sound 'dumb'.
But, for me personally, religion, or the belief in a god, is not an issue, I have no connection to the idea that a god created us, and is watching everything we do, to me that is ludicrous.

I am perfectly happy and content to know that I share this earth with all of the other life forms that are here, and we all are 'at home' here.

I don't ever think our existence here has no meaning. I have a very spiritual feeling toward my earth.
The earth to me, is like my parent. I believe it gave me life, it comforts me, it is comfortable to live here, it is natural for me to be here, and when I die, I will return to the earth, as the earth is, where
I was formed and was given life, in the beginning.

I do not look outward for any other reason, other than, to wonder if there are other planets, with other people, who I might someday meet. Probably not for me, but someday others will have that
priviledge I'm sure. I will
never want to run away from my existence on this earth, I accept my life
here fully, as all of the other lifeforms do. And, because we have the ability to reason and think
far above the ability of the animals etc., we also have the ability to love and care for our partners on this earth.

I was told in an earlier post, that I have the knack of uncomplicating complicated issues,(I suppose that could also mean that I am simple minded, but we won't go there, will we), and I believe
this is one of those times, this subject is very simple in my mind, it is not a muddling issue, I
am OK, as I am a product of this earth, and I accept that, nothing more.
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
I know what you mean.

Its like confession.

We get these people who are utter disgraceful during the week, and do not at all practise their religion, but they always attend every Sunday...

quite hypocritical.


how do you know? one thing i am learning is that non-catholics think they know more about the catholic church than its members do. youre not catholic so you have no idea about confessionat all.
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
37
48
72
Ottawa ,Canada
OK, The title of this thread is WRONG - there is no true religion .Lets go from there.

I have just cheked in to a hotel and need alot of sleep before the meeting tommorow .Living in China I'm a day ahead of most of you so see you in... 2 days ?