Member
Posts: 225 
Location: Toronto, ON
Location: Toronto, ON
March 29th, 2007, 09:04 AM
The left’s fiery obsession with removing Ten Commandments monuments from public property throughout the United States may seem odd and irrational but actually reflects the deepest values of contemporary liberalism.
In the last five years alone, the tireless fanatics at the ACLU have invested tens of millions of dollars and countless hours of legal time in lawsuits to yank the Commandments from long-standing displays in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Montana, Georgia, Iowa, Washington State, Nebraska, Texas, Pennsylvania and Florida. In one of the most recent battles, they delayed their litigation in Dixie County, Florida, because they couldn’t find a single local resident to lend a name as plaintiff in a drive to dislocate the tablets from the local court house.
Even for militant separationists like the ACLU, this ferocious hostility to innocuous and generally uncontroversial monuments looks excessive, even self-destructive. The overwhelming majority of Americans instinctively accept the Commandments as a timeless, cherished summary of universal moral precepts. A closer look at the specifics of the Decalogue, however, suggests that it makes good sense for leftists to hate The Big Ten: each one of the commandments contradicts a different pillar of trendy liberal thinking.
For the purposes of this discussion of these conflicts, I’ll cite translations from the original Hebrew in the excellent Stone Edition of the Biblical text (Exodus 20; 2-14), and I’ll use the traditional numbering favored by Jews and Protestants. (Catholics group Commandments 1 and 2 together, and make two separate Commandments--9 and 10-- out of the prohibition on “coveting” that Protestants and Jews identify solely as number 10.)
First Commandment: I am the Lord Your God, Who has taken you out of the Land of Egypt, from the house of slavery…..
This one makes liberals obviously and instantly uncomfortable. According to political correctness, it’s rude and insensitive to proclaim God’s existence in public—and especially not in public schools! Faith is supposed to remain a private matter, an individual habit or quiet commitment, leaving plenty of room for doubt and uncertainty. Secularists therefore resent the notion of an open, out-of-the-closet Deity who shows off in such a noisy, flashy way, staging the Exodus from Egypt with all its plagues and sea-splitting, then announcing himself in a voice from the mountaintop heard by hundreds of thousands of people. For those who worry about too much religion in the “public square,” it doesn’t get much more public or communal or unequivocal than this opening proclamation.
Second Commandment: You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence. You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth. You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them…..
Talk about intolerance and judgmentalism! This commandment denies the very essence of multiculturalism and diversity: by what right do we dismiss and disrespect the gods of others? Didn’t that wild-eyed, bearded guy who went up the mountain realize that it’s a demonstration of wrong-headed cultural imperialism to express such cruel, callous contempt for deities like the Aztec Quetzcotal or the Canaanite Moloch? Moreover, when it comes to worshipping idols, twentieth century leftists continued the noble traditions of the ancient cults of Baal or Astarte: in the old Soviet Union, every town boasted monumental statues of Lenin or Stalin (usually both) and to this day, the image of the divine Fidel graces every pathetic hovel in Cuba. Refusal to “prostrate yourself” and to “worship them” can lead to big trouble in such enlightened societies.
Third Commandment: You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain.
For liberals, this rule highlights the right wing’s eternal, anal-retentive obsession with proper language and dirty words. Isn’t old Moses here sounding a little bit like the benighted FCC with its seven words you’re never allowed to say on the air? Cutting edge artists and entertainers love using holy names in shocking and disrespectful ways. Liberals supported the National Endowment for the Arts almost unanimously in its funding for the controversial Andres Serrano collage “Piss Christ,” and activists on the left are always more eager to defend any divine designations (like “God Almighty!” or “Jesus Christ!”) if they’re pronounced as curse words (protected speech) rather than with reverence (violating separation of church-and-state).
Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it. Six days shall you work and accomplish all your work but the seventh day is Sabbath to the Lord your God….
Most liberals are okay with the Sabbath stuff, but they squirm over that part of this directive that says, “Six days shall you work….”?!! What kind of exploitative boss would dare to demand a six day work week from today’s unionized laborers? In enlightened nations like France, they’re working to get it down to a three day week--which ought to be enough to keep every citizen well-stocked in snails and frog legs. This commandment fairly reeks of the old-fashioned, restrictive Anglo-Saxon work ethic. In the Twenty First Century isn’t it time we moved beyond that outmoded notion that people should prefer labor to leisure?
Fifth Commandment: Honor your father and your mother….
And ignore the scintillating and liberating ideas of the younger generation? Are you kidding? The expectation of honoring your elders burdens youthful free spirits with the dead, oppressive influence of tradition and the past. Progressive thinkers understand that in defining proper standards of dress, grooming, music, entertainment and sexual mores , it’s kids (and particularly adolescents), not parents, who really know best.
Sixth Commandment: You shall not kill
On the surface, this sounds reasonable enough to liberals, but they can’t stand the context: just one chapter later in the same book of the Bible (Exodus, 21:12),God and Moses give orders to break their own rule: “One who strikes a man, so that he dies, shall surely be put to death.” The next verses stipulate capital punishment for a wide variety of causes (like “cursing your father and mother”) so the no-kill commandment really begins to sound like no-murder. In other words, the Bible makes a clear distinction that liberals emphatically deny. The left loves slogans that declare that that execution is murder, war is murder, meat is murder, and so forth, but the God of Exodus who emphatically bans murder also specifically authorizes execution, war and meat.
Seventh Commandment: You shall not commit adultery
To which the post-modern left would quickly add: unless you really, really love her. It’s not just Clinton apologists who have a problem with this inconvenient taboo on extra-marital involvement: when people take their vows by pledging to remain committed “as long as our love shall last,” the Seventh Commandment begins to look incurably outmoded.
Eighth Commandment: You shall not steal
For lefties, this prohibition smacks of the right’s selfish emphasis on private property. Back in the glory days of the 1960’s, the beloved hippie hero Abbie Hoffman penned a liberationist manifesto called “Steal This Book.” Radicals and revolutionaries have always devised comfortable euphemisms to describe the act of theft: “liberating” or “boosting” or “collectivizing” or “nationalizing” private property, or simply “taxing the rich.” If you believe it’s virtuous for government to seize by force the majority of an individual’s earnings (remember the pre-Reagan, top income tax rate of 70%?), you ought to feel somewhat uncomfortable with an absolute ban on stealing.
Ninth Commandment: You shall not bear false witness…
Some liberals may endorse this commandment, but only when it’s applied to Scooter Libby. Otherwise, there’s a problem with the ancient Jewish understanding of the deeper meaning of this verse. Our sages suggest that a secret to understanding each one of the Big Ten involves the parallel structure of the two tablets. In other words, the first commandment corresponds to the sixth, the second to the seventh, the third to the eighth, and the fourth to the ninth. That means that this “no false witness” order connects to the imperative of keeping the Sabbath. The association relates to the basis for Sabbath observance stipulated in the text: “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and the sea and all this is in them, and He rested on the seventh day.” In other words, the Sabbath bears witness to God’s role in creation, and the Rabbis say that the denial of divine creation represents the ultimate in bearing false witness. On this basis, today’s libs insist on false witness, the whole false witness, and nothing but false witness. The very idea of questioning a random, materialistic origin of the universe makes them crazy with rage and contempt: they strenuously condemn the mere notion of suggesting in schools that it was an Intelligent Designer who must have “made the heavens and the earth”
Tenth Commandment: You shall not covet your fellow’s house. You shall not covet your fellow’s wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your fellow.
Among many other problems, this commandment outrages PETA with its unacceptable suggestions like animal companions like oxen and donkeys can ever “belong” to their human friends. Meanwhile, the ban on coveting involves a restriction on a feeling, a desire, and it’s politically incorrect to suppress or deny or stifle authentic emotions, Blaming yourself for coveting can only undermine self-esteem, and the emergence and liberation of your precious inner child. Moreover, the entire leftist project is largely based on covetousness: resenting the “filthy rich” for what they’ve earned, rather than feeling grateful for your own achievements. The implacable liberal focus on the “gap between rich and poor” – as if impoverishing the wealthy worked in any meaningful way to actually enrich the poor – represents covetous attitudes at their irrational worst. The sacred leftist goal of “redistribution of wealth,” mandating heavy taxes on “haves” for the purported benefits of “have-nots”, depends on coveting for its energy and rationale. On the other hand, the Bible’s unmistakable emphasis on the sanctity of private property (“You shall not covet your fellow’s house”) clearly contradicts the left’s emphasis on a communitarian and collectivist outlook, in which the state becomes the ultimate owner of everything.
Reviewing the Ten Commandments one by one exposes their irreconcilable conflict with the demented and dysfunctional philosophy of today’s left.
In other words, in contrast to most aspects of Twenty First century liberalism, the implacable hostility to the Biblical Big Ten actually ends up making perfect sense.
Michael Medved is a film critic, best-selling author and nationally syndicated radio talk show host.
The left’s fiery obsession with removing Ten Commandments monuments from public property throughout the United States may seem odd and irrational but actually reflects the deepest values of contemporary liberalism.
In the last five years alone, the tireless fanatics at the ACLU have invested tens of millions of dollars and countless hours of legal time in lawsuits to yank the Commandments from long-standing displays in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Montana, Georgia, Iowa, Washington State, Nebraska, Texas, Pennsylvania and Florida. In one of the most recent battles, they delayed their litigation in Dixie County, Florida, because they couldn’t find a single local resident to lend a name as plaintiff in a drive to dislocate the tablets from the local court house.
Even for militant separationists like the ACLU, this ferocious hostility to innocuous and generally uncontroversial monuments looks excessive, even self-destructive. The overwhelming majority of Americans instinctively accept the Commandments as a timeless, cherished summary of universal moral precepts. A closer look at the specifics of the Decalogue, however, suggests that it makes good sense for leftists to hate The Big Ten: each one of the commandments contradicts a different pillar of trendy liberal thinking.
For the purposes of this discussion of these conflicts, I’ll cite translations from the original Hebrew in the excellent Stone Edition of the Biblical text (Exodus 20; 2-14), and I’ll use the traditional numbering favored by Jews and Protestants. (Catholics group Commandments 1 and 2 together, and make two separate Commandments--9 and 10-- out of the prohibition on “coveting” that Protestants and Jews identify solely as number 10.)
First Commandment: I am the Lord Your God, Who has taken you out of the Land of Egypt, from the house of slavery…..
This one makes liberals obviously and instantly uncomfortable. According to political correctness, it’s rude and insensitive to proclaim God’s existence in public—and especially not in public schools! Faith is supposed to remain a private matter, an individual habit or quiet commitment, leaving plenty of room for doubt and uncertainty. Secularists therefore resent the notion of an open, out-of-the-closet Deity who shows off in such a noisy, flashy way, staging the Exodus from Egypt with all its plagues and sea-splitting, then announcing himself in a voice from the mountaintop heard by hundreds of thousands of people. For those who worry about too much religion in the “public square,” it doesn’t get much more public or communal or unequivocal than this opening proclamation.
Second Commandment: You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence. You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth. You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them…..
Talk about intolerance and judgmentalism! This commandment denies the very essence of multiculturalism and diversity: by what right do we dismiss and disrespect the gods of others? Didn’t that wild-eyed, bearded guy who went up the mountain realize that it’s a demonstration of wrong-headed cultural imperialism to express such cruel, callous contempt for deities like the Aztec Quetzcotal or the Canaanite Moloch? Moreover, when it comes to worshipping idols, twentieth century leftists continued the noble traditions of the ancient cults of Baal or Astarte: in the old Soviet Union, every town boasted monumental statues of Lenin or Stalin (usually both) and to this day, the image of the divine Fidel graces every pathetic hovel in Cuba. Refusal to “prostrate yourself” and to “worship them” can lead to big trouble in such enlightened societies.
Third Commandment: You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain.
For liberals, this rule highlights the right wing’s eternal, anal-retentive obsession with proper language and dirty words. Isn’t old Moses here sounding a little bit like the benighted FCC with its seven words you’re never allowed to say on the air? Cutting edge artists and entertainers love using holy names in shocking and disrespectful ways. Liberals supported the National Endowment for the Arts almost unanimously in its funding for the controversial Andres Serrano collage “Piss Christ,” and activists on the left are always more eager to defend any divine designations (like “God Almighty!” or “Jesus Christ!”) if they’re pronounced as curse words (protected speech) rather than with reverence (violating separation of church-and-state).
Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it. Six days shall you work and accomplish all your work but the seventh day is Sabbath to the Lord your God….
Most liberals are okay with the Sabbath stuff, but they squirm over that part of this directive that says, “Six days shall you work….”?!! What kind of exploitative boss would dare to demand a six day work week from today’s unionized laborers? In enlightened nations like France, they’re working to get it down to a three day week--which ought to be enough to keep every citizen well-stocked in snails and frog legs. This commandment fairly reeks of the old-fashioned, restrictive Anglo-Saxon work ethic. In the Twenty First Century isn’t it time we moved beyond that outmoded notion that people should prefer labor to leisure?
Fifth Commandment: Honor your father and your mother….
And ignore the scintillating and liberating ideas of the younger generation? Are you kidding? The expectation of honoring your elders burdens youthful free spirits with the dead, oppressive influence of tradition and the past. Progressive thinkers understand that in defining proper standards of dress, grooming, music, entertainment and sexual mores , it’s kids (and particularly adolescents), not parents, who really know best.
Sixth Commandment: You shall not kill
On the surface, this sounds reasonable enough to liberals, but they can’t stand the context: just one chapter later in the same book of the Bible (Exodus, 21:12),God and Moses give orders to break their own rule: “One who strikes a man, so that he dies, shall surely be put to death.” The next verses stipulate capital punishment for a wide variety of causes (like “cursing your father and mother”) so the no-kill commandment really begins to sound like no-murder. In other words, the Bible makes a clear distinction that liberals emphatically deny. The left loves slogans that declare that that execution is murder, war is murder, meat is murder, and so forth, but the God of Exodus who emphatically bans murder also specifically authorizes execution, war and meat.
Seventh Commandment: You shall not commit adultery
To which the post-modern left would quickly add: unless you really, really love her. It’s not just Clinton apologists who have a problem with this inconvenient taboo on extra-marital involvement: when people take their vows by pledging to remain committed “as long as our love shall last,” the Seventh Commandment begins to look incurably outmoded.
Eighth Commandment: You shall not steal
For lefties, this prohibition smacks of the right’s selfish emphasis on private property. Back in the glory days of the 1960’s, the beloved hippie hero Abbie Hoffman penned a liberationist manifesto called “Steal This Book.” Radicals and revolutionaries have always devised comfortable euphemisms to describe the act of theft: “liberating” or “boosting” or “collectivizing” or “nationalizing” private property, or simply “taxing the rich.” If you believe it’s virtuous for government to seize by force the majority of an individual’s earnings (remember the pre-Reagan, top income tax rate of 70%?), you ought to feel somewhat uncomfortable with an absolute ban on stealing.
Ninth Commandment: You shall not bear false witness…
Some liberals may endorse this commandment, but only when it’s applied to Scooter Libby. Otherwise, there’s a problem with the ancient Jewish understanding of the deeper meaning of this verse. Our sages suggest that a secret to understanding each one of the Big Ten involves the parallel structure of the two tablets. In other words, the first commandment corresponds to the sixth, the second to the seventh, the third to the eighth, and the fourth to the ninth. That means that this “no false witness” order connects to the imperative of keeping the Sabbath. The association relates to the basis for Sabbath observance stipulated in the text: “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and the sea and all this is in them, and He rested on the seventh day.” In other words, the Sabbath bears witness to God’s role in creation, and the Rabbis say that the denial of divine creation represents the ultimate in bearing false witness. On this basis, today’s libs insist on false witness, the whole false witness, and nothing but false witness. The very idea of questioning a random, materialistic origin of the universe makes them crazy with rage and contempt: they strenuously condemn the mere notion of suggesting in schools that it was an Intelligent Designer who must have “made the heavens and the earth”
Tenth Commandment: You shall not covet your fellow’s house. You shall not covet your fellow’s wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your fellow.
Among many other problems, this commandment outrages PETA with its unacceptable suggestions like animal companions like oxen and donkeys can ever “belong” to their human friends. Meanwhile, the ban on coveting involves a restriction on a feeling, a desire, and it’s politically incorrect to suppress or deny or stifle authentic emotions, Blaming yourself for coveting can only undermine self-esteem, and the emergence and liberation of your precious inner child. Moreover, the entire leftist project is largely based on covetousness: resenting the “filthy rich” for what they’ve earned, rather than feeling grateful for your own achievements. The implacable liberal focus on the “gap between rich and poor” – as if impoverishing the wealthy worked in any meaningful way to actually enrich the poor – represents covetous attitudes at their irrational worst. The sacred leftist goal of “redistribution of wealth,” mandating heavy taxes on “haves” for the purported benefits of “have-nots”, depends on coveting for its energy and rationale. On the other hand, the Bible’s unmistakable emphasis on the sanctity of private property (“You shall not covet your fellow’s house”) clearly contradicts the left’s emphasis on a communitarian and collectivist outlook, in which the state becomes the ultimate owner of everything.
Reviewing the Ten Commandments one by one exposes their irreconcilable conflict with the demented and dysfunctional philosophy of today’s left.
In other words, in contrast to most aspects of Twenty First century liberalism, the implacable hostility to the Biblical Big Ten actually ends up making perfect sense.
Michael Medved is a film critic, best-selling author and nationally syndicated radio talk show host.
Council Member
Posts: 2,062 
March 29th, 2007, 09:30 AM
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
The notion that ALL liberals or ALL conservatives hate this, love that, are for abortion, or against abortion, is STUPID, INSULTING, AND IGNORANT.
We don't need that polarizing crap. Let's take a deep breath, and think before we post this ****e.
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
The notion that ALL liberals or ALL conservatives hate this, love that, are for abortion, or against abortion, is STUPID, INSULTING, AND IGNORANT.
We don't need that polarizing crap. Let's take a deep breath, and think before we post this ****e.
jimmoyer
Posts: 5,006
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
March 29th, 2007, 09:47 AM
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
---------------------------------------------TenPenny-----------------------------------------------
Actually, now with Harper as your PM, liberal vs conservative knows no borders nor is this
debate a franchise exlusively exported by the US. Check out Thatcher in the past.
Australia's conservative PM. Even that of Germany's chancelor.
That's your natural innate bias living next door to a messy fat neighbor.
I do agree that such a debate is old and boring.
Yet such labels are convenient to describe quickly a set of beliefs that are definable
in any demographic section of the population.
Why be deceitful and pretend such a dichotomy does not exist ?
And why require a tedious paragraph to explain what you mean when one word hits the mark ?
And this complaint about polarization would occur with or without these words, eh ?
And finally it is human nature to associate mostly with those of like-minded thoughts
and after a long while being that way, it appears that the truth is what your group thinks
and the other group is plain stupid.
And so the dichotomy appears more to be truth and
understanding vs stupidity rather than liberal vs conservative. It's a natural result of hanging
around those of like mind.
With all those points being said, I still bow to your overall sentiment TenPenny that
a synthesis might be better than a stale conflict.
To this end, you might say that liberals emphasize COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY while
conservatives emphasize INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY. Both are right and both sides do
think the other has a point. The argument centers on how much either way.
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
---------------------------------------------TenPenny-----------------------------------------------
Actually, now with Harper as your PM, liberal vs conservative knows no borders nor is this
debate a franchise exlusively exported by the US. Check out Thatcher in the past.
Australia's conservative PM. Even that of Germany's chancelor.
That's your natural innate bias living next door to a messy fat neighbor.
I do agree that such a debate is old and boring.
Yet such labels are convenient to describe quickly a set of beliefs that are definable
in any demographic section of the population.
Why be deceitful and pretend such a dichotomy does not exist ?
And why require a tedious paragraph to explain what you mean when one word hits the mark ?
And this complaint about polarization would occur with or without these words, eh ?
And finally it is human nature to associate mostly with those of like-minded thoughts
and after a long while being that way, it appears that the truth is what your group thinks
and the other group is plain stupid.
And so the dichotomy appears more to be truth and
understanding vs stupidity rather than liberal vs conservative. It's a natural result of hanging
around those of like mind.
With all those points being said, I still bow to your overall sentiment TenPenny that
a synthesis might be better than a stale conflict.
To this end, you might say that liberals emphasize COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY while
conservatives emphasize INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY. Both are right and both sides do
think the other has a point. The argument centers on how much either way.
Member
Posts: 98
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
March 29th, 2007, 09:48 AM
Maybe we can change them to:
The 10 Pretty Good Ideas.
1. I claim to be God. I'd like it if you had no other god but me. I don't want to offend, so if you don't want to, I understand. Worshipping inanimate objects is kinda dumb and makes you look ridiculous, but who am I to judge.
2. Since you are Constitutionally guaranteed the right to freely express yourself, I'd appreciate it if you'd not use my name in vain. Its common courtesy
3. Try not to work at least one day of the week. But you gotta do what you gotta do.
4. You should be nice to your parents. But I understand that in the interests of self-expression you don't, at least not in public.
5. You shouldn't kill people who are productive to society. But the unborn, the infirm, and the elderly are fair game. The only exception to this is violent criminals. You are commanded to leave them alone. They are victims too.
6. You shouldn't commit adultery, or, at least don't be public about it. In any case, its good to have a prenup just in case.
7. You shouldn't steal. That is the government's job, and they hate competition.
8. You should not bear false witness against your neighbour, unless it give you political advantage, then its fair game.
9. You shouldn't covet your neighbours stuff. It will tempt you to steal it, see suggestion #7.
10. You shouldn't covet your neighbour's wife, but his girlfriend, boyfriend, or the wife or husband of someone who is not your neighbour are all in play. See idea #6.
Maybe we can change them to:
The 10 Pretty Good Ideas.
1. I claim to be God. I'd like it if you had no other god but me. I don't want to offend, so if you don't want to, I understand. Worshipping inanimate objects is kinda dumb and makes you look ridiculous, but who am I to judge.
2. Since you are Constitutionally guaranteed the right to freely express yourself, I'd appreciate it if you'd not use my name in vain. Its common courtesy
3. Try not to work at least one day of the week. But you gotta do what you gotta do.
4. You should be nice to your parents. But I understand that in the interests of self-expression you don't, at least not in public.
5. You shouldn't kill people who are productive to society. But the unborn, the infirm, and the elderly are fair game. The only exception to this is violent criminals. You are commanded to leave them alone. They are victims too.
6. You shouldn't commit adultery, or, at least don't be public about it. In any case, its good to have a prenup just in case.
7. You shouldn't steal. That is the government's job, and they hate competition.
8. You should not bear false witness against your neighbour, unless it give you political advantage, then its fair game.
9. You shouldn't covet your neighbours stuff. It will tempt you to steal it, see suggestion #7.
10. You shouldn't covet your neighbour's wife, but his girlfriend, boyfriend, or the wife or husband of someone who is not your neighbour are all in play. See idea #6.
Council Member
Posts: 2,062
March 29th, 2007, 10:18 AM
There is a huge population of middle of the road people, who get really tired of this crap. Every time someone disagrees, you can just call them liberals or conservatives and then insult them and tell them they kill babies, or eat trees, or club seals, or support Bush, or Hate The Troops, or whatever.
What a load of crap; as soon as I read a post with "liberals..." or "conservatives...." in its title, I know that it is a stream of urine, without merit, usually without any insight or thought behind it.
Quoting jimmoyer
The dichotomy you refer to is not nearly as strong as the demonization and labelling of each side makes it appear; many on line forums have become little more than extreme exaggerations on both sides.
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
---------------------------------------------TenPenny-----------------------------------------------
Actually, now with Harper as your PM, liberal vs conservative knows no borders nor is this
debate a franchise exlusively exported by the US. Check out Thatcher in the past.
Australia's conservative PM. Even that of Germany's chancelor.
That's your natural innate bias living next door to a messy fat neighbor.
I do agree that such a debate is old and boring.
Yet such labels are convenient to describe quickly a set of beliefs that are definable
in any demographic section of the population.
---------------------------------------------TenPenny-----------------------------------------------
Actually, now with Harper as your PM, liberal vs conservative knows no borders nor is this
debate a franchise exlusively exported by the US. Check out Thatcher in the past.
Australia's conservative PM. Even that of Germany's chancelor.
That's your natural innate bias living next door to a messy fat neighbor.
I do agree that such a debate is old and boring.
Yet such labels are convenient to describe quickly a set of beliefs that are definable
in any demographic section of the population.
There is a huge population of middle of the road people, who get really tired of this crap. Every time someone disagrees, you can just call them liberals or conservatives and then insult them and tell them they kill babies, or eat trees, or club seals, or support Bush, or Hate The Troops, or whatever.
What a load of crap; as soon as I read a post with "liberals..." or "conservatives...." in its title, I know that it is a stream of urine, without merit, usually without any insight or thought behind it.
Member
Posts: 57
Location: Western NC, USA
Location: Western NC, USA
March 29th, 2007, 10:30 AM
1) It's comfortable and easy to label without regard, isn't it? Why think at all?
2) The 10 commandments only cover, what, 2 major religions? Put fascets of other religions next to the 10 commandments and I will have no 'beef'.
3) "I am the Lord your God..." No. You are the Lord-somebody-else's-God. My God loves every good person...not just the ones who prostrate themselves to Him/Her/It
4) "it’s rude and insensitive to proclaim God’s existence in public—and especially not in public schools!" No. It's rude to be non-inclusivist and force your beliefs on others.
5) "You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence." Again, non-inclusivist.
6) "...twentieth century leftists continued the noble traditions of the ancient cults of Baal or Astarte: in the old Soviet Union, every town boasted monumental statues of Lenin or Stalin..." Find me a Christian church without a scultpture of Christ or his ilk and you'll have found a minority within a majority. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 10 Commandments monuments 'carved'?
7) "the right wing’s eternal, anal-retentive obsession with proper language and dirty words." If we're going to generalize, aren't racial slurs and sexist remarks generally attributed to the 'right'?
"In enlightened nations like France, they’re working to get it down to a three day week--which ought to be enough to keep every citizen well-stocked in snails and frog legs." Ah, who doesn't love a good bout of racism and predjudice? Btw, I work 6-day weeks.
9) "The expectation of honoring your elders burdens youthful free spirits with the dead, oppressive influence of tradition and the past." Aren't 'pagans' following OLDER traditions than Christians? Wouldn't you consider a 'pagan' a 'lefty'? Tradition AND contemporary thought are BOTH important....as is honoring one's parents AND respecting one's children.
10) "God and Moses give orders to break their own rule". That's because the Bible is full of contradictions. It was inspired by God, but it was tainted by man. KJV. Version? There are different VERSIONS of the Bible?
11) "You shall not commit adultery". I agree wholheartedly. BUT in the case of Clinton, why was any of that our business? That's between him, Hillary, and the God they swore their marital vows under.
12) "You shall not steal". I agree with that. I think that should apply to businesspeople and clergy as well. Stealing from the government through highly dubious tax shelters and snafu's hurts us all.
13) "Our sages suggest that a secret to understanding..." Which sages? To whom do they belong?
14) "today’s libs insist on false witness..... The very idea of questioning a random, materialistic origin of the universe makes them crazy with rage and contempt..." Utter nonsense. Big Bang is not proveable so far, but evolution is. It's not for schools to teach WHO/WHAT started it all, but proven science is well within school's rights.
15) "You shall not covet your fellow’s house. You shall not covet your fellow’s wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your fellow."
"Among many other problems, this commandment outrages PETA with its unacceptable suggestions like animal companions like oxen and donkeys can ever “belong” to their human friends." Ah. An attempt at humor.
16) "Meanwhile, the ban on coveting involves a restriction on a feeling, a desire..." Sounds like your beef is with psychology in general. Personally, I dislike envy (to a fault), but folks are going to have desires. Why else would businessmen be driven so hard? Coveting money.
17) "resenting the “filthy rich” for what they’ve earned" I resent no one's honest earnings.
1 "On the other hand, the Bible’s unmistakable emphasis on the sanctity of private property (“You shall not covet your fellow’s house”) clearly contradicts the left’s emphasis on a communitarian and collectivist outlook, in which the state becomes the ultimate owner of everything." Your issue is with communists, not the 'lefties' in general.
19) "Reviewing the Ten Commandments one by one exposes their irreconcilable conflict with the demented and dysfunctional philosophy of today’s left." Do I really have to point out where the true dementia lay?
20) "In other words, in contrast to most aspects of Twenty First century liberalism, the implacable hostility to the Biblical Big Ten actually ends up making perfect sense." Flawed, biased conclusion based on speculation and in my opinion, angry ignrance.
:a ngry3::ang ry3:
1) It's comfortable and easy to label without regard, isn't it? Why think at all?
2) The 10 commandments only cover, what, 2 major religions? Put fascets of other religions next to the 10 commandments and I will have no 'beef'.
3) "I am the Lord your God..." No. You are the Lord-somebody-else's-God. My God loves every good person...not just the ones who prostrate themselves to Him/Her/It
4) "it’s rude and insensitive to proclaim God’s existence in public—and especially not in public schools!" No. It's rude to be non-inclusivist and force your beliefs on others.
5) "You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence." Again, non-inclusivist.
6) "...twentieth century leftists continued the noble traditions of the ancient cults of Baal or Astarte: in the old Soviet Union, every town boasted monumental statues of Lenin or Stalin..." Find me a Christian church without a scultpture of Christ or his ilk and you'll have found a minority within a majority. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't 10 Commandments monuments 'carved'?
7) "the right wing’s eternal, anal-retentive obsession with proper language and dirty words." If we're going to generalize, aren't racial slurs and sexist remarks generally attributed to the 'right'?
"In enlightened nations like France, they’re working to get it down to a three day week--which ought to be enough to keep every citizen well-stocked in snails and frog legs." Ah, who doesn't love a good bout of racism and predjudice? Btw, I work 6-day weeks.9) "The expectation of honoring your elders burdens youthful free spirits with the dead, oppressive influence of tradition and the past." Aren't 'pagans' following OLDER traditions than Christians? Wouldn't you consider a 'pagan' a 'lefty'? Tradition AND contemporary thought are BOTH important....as is honoring one's parents AND respecting one's children.
10) "God and Moses give orders to break their own rule". That's because the Bible is full of contradictions. It was inspired by God, but it was tainted by man. KJV. Version? There are different VERSIONS of the Bible?
11) "You shall not commit adultery". I agree wholheartedly. BUT in the case of Clinton, why was any of that our business? That's between him, Hillary, and the God they swore their marital vows under.
12) "You shall not steal". I agree with that. I think that should apply to businesspeople and clergy as well. Stealing from the government through highly dubious tax shelters and snafu's hurts us all.
13) "Our sages suggest that a secret to understanding..." Which sages? To whom do they belong?
14) "today’s libs insist on false witness..... The very idea of questioning a random, materialistic origin of the universe makes them crazy with rage and contempt..." Utter nonsense. Big Bang is not proveable so far, but evolution is. It's not for schools to teach WHO/WHAT started it all, but proven science is well within school's rights.
15) "You shall not covet your fellow’s house. You shall not covet your fellow’s wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your fellow."
"Among many other problems, this commandment outrages PETA with its unacceptable suggestions like animal companions like oxen and donkeys can ever “belong” to their human friends." Ah. An attempt at humor.
16) "Meanwhile, the ban on coveting involves a restriction on a feeling, a desire..." Sounds like your beef is with psychology in general. Personally, I dislike envy (to a fault), but folks are going to have desires. Why else would businessmen be driven so hard? Coveting money.
17) "resenting the “filthy rich” for what they’ve earned" I resent no one's honest earnings.
1
"On the other hand, the Bible’s unmistakable emphasis on the sanctity of private property (“You shall not covet your fellow’s house”) clearly contradicts the left’s emphasis on a communitarian and collectivist outlook, in which the state becomes the ultimate owner of everything." Your issue is with communists, not the 'lefties' in general.19) "Reviewing the Ten Commandments one by one exposes their irreconcilable conflict with the demented and dysfunctional philosophy of today’s left." Do I really have to point out where the true dementia lay?
20) "In other words, in contrast to most aspects of Twenty First century liberalism, the implacable hostility to the Biblical Big Ten actually ends up making perfect sense." Flawed, biased conclusion based on speculation and in my opinion, angry ignrance.
:a ngry3::ang ry3: Executive Member
Posts: 9,222
March 29th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Quoting TenPenny
Agreed. There are few labels that fit all "Liberals" or all "Conservatives".
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
The notion that ALL liberals or ALL conservatives hate this, love that, are for abortion, or against abortion, is STUPID, INSULTING, AND IGNORANT.
We don't need that polarizing crap. Let's take a deep breath, and think before we post this ****e.
The notion that ALL liberals or ALL conservatives hate this, love that, are for abortion, or against abortion, is STUPID, INSULTING, AND IGNORANT.
We don't need that polarizing crap. Let's take a deep breath, and think before we post this ****e.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 9,257
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
March 29th, 2007, 12:04 PM
As much as the labels are disliked by many they're still requirments of understanding, while niether of the terms liberal or conservative are particularly instructive they still define a general condition. That general condition invokes further definition which results in additional further specific labels. We cannot drop the labels anymore than we can drop the discussions that breed them. I see myself as a conservative liberal socialist. That more sophisticated label may help the disscussion.
As much as the labels are disliked by many they're still requirments of understanding, while niether of the terms liberal or conservative are particularly instructive they still define a general condition. That general condition invokes further definition which results in additional further specific labels. We cannot drop the labels anymore than we can drop the discussions that breed them. I see myself as a conservative liberal socialist. That more sophisticated label may help the disscussion.
Member
Posts: 57
Location: Western NC, USA
Location: Western NC, USA
March 29th, 2007, 01:06 PM
Descriptive labels make sense. Grand, gesturing, and non-specific labels are often quite misleading.
I don't say "The colored chair", I say "The blue chair".
I think your self-imposed label is far more indicative of you political standings than one of those words by itself.
Descriptive labels make sense. Grand, gesturing, and non-specific labels are often quite misleading.
I don't say "The colored chair", I say "The blue chair".
I think your self-imposed label is far more indicative of you political standings than one of those words by itself.
House Member
Posts: 2,761
Location: California
Location: California
March 29th, 2007, 04:13 PM
Quoting TenPenny
THANK YOU!!! I was starting to think I was the only one.
I'm really, really tired of this "liberal" vs "conservative" bull**** that is creeping up here from the US.
The notion that ALL liberals or ALL conservatives hate this, love that, are for abortion, or against abortion, is STUPID, INSULTING, AND IGNORANT.
We don't need that polarizing crap. Let's take a deep breath, and think before we post this ****e.
The notion that ALL liberals or ALL conservatives hate this, love that, are for abortion, or against abortion, is STUPID, INSULTING, AND IGNORANT.
We don't need that polarizing crap. Let's take a deep breath, and think before we post this ****e.
March 29th, 2007, 05:41 PM
I don't get it. I'm Catholic. I follow the ten commandments (okay, except for maybe coveting my neighbors wife, she's really cute), and yet, when I chime in on political discussion, I get dismissed as a 'lefty liberal'. So, I agree with the commandments, yet I'm supposed to hate them? Huh?
These stupid labels don't fit, I think my arse is hanging out of them.
I don't get it. I'm Catholic. I follow the ten commandments (okay, except for maybe coveting my neighbors wife, she's really cute), and yet, when I chime in on political discussion, I get dismissed as a 'lefty liberal'. So, I agree with the commandments, yet I'm supposed to hate them? Huh?
These stupid labels don't fit, I think my arse is hanging out of them.
Time Out
Posts: 1,651
March 29th, 2007, 06:46 PM
karrie is a man?
Ok, take note:
The ACLU represents the opinions of a VERY LOW AMOUNT OF SOCIETY.
It is funded by a few rich wealthy men including George Soros, who a FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR, beyond anything we b*tch about in Canada as being "left", LEFT.
He wants to fund his propaganda and throw his ideology on to the entire nation.
Its basically: I feel this is the right way to do things, so whoop I got money, this is gone, oh and that too...
First Commandment: I am the Lord Your God, Who has taken you out of the Land of Egypt, from the house of slavery…..
Considering how the United States of America was historically based on Judeo-Christian philosophy and was almost 100% Christian at foundation and the fact that has remained at 85% Christian centuries after foundation, immigration, etc. is an outstanding fact that the United States of America is a huge majority of Christians being torn down and decieved by a 5-10% minority of atheists and Secular-Progressives.
Why are we forced to keep our faith "private" when our faith is believed in by 85% of the citizens?
FYI: Religion is not forced on anyone through The Ten Commandments being posted, outlawing religions is forcing a belief, displaying a text of religion is not imposing or forcing anything on to anybody, its recognizing 85% of the people believe that, and the 15% can live their lives and not have that forced on them at all.
Second Commandment: You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence. You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth. You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them…..
If you look back historically when this was made, this was the time of worshiping false idols. And what came from that was acts of the devil.
Yet again this is not entrenched in the USA, its just recognizing the history, heritage, and majority of views.
Third Commandment: You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain.
This is right up your Liberals' alley: It called intolerance, offensive, wrong,
Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it. Six days shall you work and accomplish all your work but the seventh day is Sabbath to the Lord your God…
Nice way to take that out of context OP. This means that accomplish all your duties and work for the week, on the 6 days, but on the 7th day, do not work relax from your week (something right up your Liberal's alley), and devote your day to God (church service)
Once again, bigger then the Super Bowl, a concert, or any other event, CHURCH IS THE BIGGEST GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE IN ONE SET AMOUNT OF TIME EVER.
In Winnipeg a city of 650 000 people, 165 000 people attend church, thats more than the amount of people attending a Grey Cup Game.
FYI, biggest event for the majority of people on Sunday is church
Fifth Commandment: Honor your father and your mother….
What the heck is wrong with this, the parents that raised, you devoted their lives to you, its not saying not to honor others, but what is wrong with honoring your parents? Judas Priest!
Sixth Commandment: You shall not kill
And what exactly is wrong with this, what now Liberals want to let us freely kill?
God teaches forgiveness, and to, once again the majority of Americans, the Death Penalty should be an option for people who commit awful acts.. eg. MURDER
Seventh Commandment: You shall not commit adultery
Adultery is something that is seen wrong when a man or woman has sex outside of a MARRIAGE.
A MARRIAGE is a contract bounding a man and a woman to live their lives together and being true to each other.
you want sex outside of marriage, do not marry.
What the heck is wrong with this... 99% of the people think sex outside of a marriage is wrong!
Eighth Commandment: You shall not steal
Not even going to defend that one, someone is a f'ed up person if stealing is ok!
Ninth Commandment: You shall not bear false witness…
And what exactly is wrong with saying if your a witness to a crime, that you should not lie or "bear false witness"
We should all be able to lie about criminal events now, eh?
Tenth Commandment: You shall not covet your fellow’s house. You shall not covet your fellow’s wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your fellow.
And nice way to try to bring animals into this one.
---
When will we recognize the United States is a Christian society, that believes and honors their beliefs, and in the same aspect allows and tolerates other beliefs.
Allowing and tolerating other beliefs for Christians has been exploited, making our beliefs not tolerated no longer, and shutting down the majority of people.
Their is a culture war, and this culture war is far from over.
Liberals/Conservatives & Christians/Atheists cannot live in peace... it has come to that... this will eventually come to a head, and the USA will go in a huge debate and freaking war of words on this soon. VERY SOON.
karrie is a man?
Ok, take note:
The ACLU represents the opinions of a VERY LOW AMOUNT OF SOCIETY.
It is funded by a few rich wealthy men including George Soros, who a FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR, beyond anything we b*tch about in Canada as being "left", LEFT.
He wants to fund his propaganda and throw his ideology on to the entire nation.
Its basically: I feel this is the right way to do things, so whoop I got money, this is gone, oh and that too...
First Commandment: I am the Lord Your God, Who has taken you out of the Land of Egypt, from the house of slavery…..
Considering how the United States of America was historically based on Judeo-Christian philosophy and was almost 100% Christian at foundation and the fact that has remained at 85% Christian centuries after foundation, immigration, etc. is an outstanding fact that the United States of America is a huge majority of Christians being torn down and decieved by a 5-10% minority of atheists and Secular-Progressives.
Why are we forced to keep our faith "private" when our faith is believed in by 85% of the citizens?
FYI: Religion is not forced on anyone through The Ten Commandments being posted, outlawing religions is forcing a belief, displaying a text of religion is not imposing or forcing anything on to anybody, its recognizing 85% of the people believe that, and the 15% can live their lives and not have that forced on them at all.
Second Commandment: You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence. You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth. You shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them…..
If you look back historically when this was made, this was the time of worshiping false idols. And what came from that was acts of the devil.
Yet again this is not entrenched in the USA, its just recognizing the history, heritage, and majority of views.
Third Commandment: You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain.
This is right up your Liberals' alley: It called intolerance, offensive, wrong,
Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it. Six days shall you work and accomplish all your work but the seventh day is Sabbath to the Lord your God…
Nice way to take that out of context OP. This means that accomplish all your duties and work for the week, on the 6 days, but on the 7th day, do not work relax from your week (something right up your Liberal's alley), and devote your day to God (church service)
Once again, bigger then the Super Bowl, a concert, or any other event, CHURCH IS THE BIGGEST GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE IN ONE SET AMOUNT OF TIME EVER.
In Winnipeg a city of 650 000 people, 165 000 people attend church, thats more than the amount of people attending a Grey Cup Game.
FYI, biggest event for the majority of people on Sunday is church
Fifth Commandment: Honor your father and your mother….
What the heck is wrong with this, the parents that raised, you devoted their lives to you, its not saying not to honor others, but what is wrong with honoring your parents? Judas Priest!
Sixth Commandment: You shall not kill
And what exactly is wrong with this, what now Liberals want to let us freely kill?
God teaches forgiveness, and to, once again the majority of Americans, the Death Penalty should be an option for people who commit awful acts.. eg. MURDER
Seventh Commandment: You shall not commit adultery
Adultery is something that is seen wrong when a man or woman has sex outside of a MARRIAGE.
A MARRIAGE is a contract bounding a man and a woman to live their lives together and being true to each other.
you want sex outside of marriage, do not marry.
What the heck is wrong with this... 99% of the people think sex outside of a marriage is wrong!
Eighth Commandment: You shall not steal
Not even going to defend that one, someone is a f'ed up person if stealing is ok!
Ninth Commandment: You shall not bear false witness…
And what exactly is wrong with saying if your a witness to a crime, that you should not lie or "bear false witness"
We should all be able to lie about criminal events now, eh?
Tenth Commandment: You shall not covet your fellow’s house. You shall not covet your fellow’s wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your fellow.
And nice way to try to bring animals into this one.
---
When will we recognize the United States is a Christian society, that believes and honors their beliefs, and in the same aspect allows and tolerates other beliefs.
Allowing and tolerating other beliefs for Christians has been exploited, making our beliefs not tolerated no longer, and shutting down the majority of people.
Their is a culture war, and this culture war is far from over.
Liberals/Conservatives & Christians/Atheists cannot live in peace... it has come to that... this will eventually come to a head, and the USA will go in a huge debate and freaking war of words on this soon. VERY SOON.
March 29th, 2007, 08:17 PM
Quoting karrie
I get labeled the same. A communist because I don't support Bush or the religious right crusade. If I really wanted to live off of the social safety net and be a communist I wouldn't be working for 100% commission.
I don't get it. I'm Catholic. I follow the ten commandments (okay, except for maybe coveting my neighbors wife, she's really cute), and yet, when I chime in on political discussion, I get dismissed as a 'lefty liberal'. So, I agree with the commandments, yet I'm supposed to hate them? Huh?
These stupid labels don't fit, I think my arse is hanging out of them.
These stupid labels don't fit, I think my arse is hanging out of them.
