Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

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The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
THE Pope is taking steps to revive the ancient tradition of the Latin Tridentine Mass in Catholic churches worldwide, according to sources in Rome. Pope Benedict XVI is understood to have signed a universal indult — or permission — for priests to celebrate again the Mass used throughout the Church for nearly 1,500 years. The indult could be published in the next few weeks, sources told The Times.

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Use of the Tridentine Mass, parts of which date from the time of St Gregory in the 6th century and which takes its name from the 16th-century Council of Trent, was restricted by most bishops after the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).
This led to the introduction of the new Mass in the vernacular to make it more accessible to contemporary audiences. By bringing back Mass in Latin, Pope Benedict is signalling that his sympathies lie with conservatives in the Catholic Church.
One of the most celebrated rebels against its suppression was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke with Rome in 1988 over this and other reforms. He was excommunicated after he consecrated four bishops, one of them British, without permission from the Pope.
Some Lefebvrists, including those in Brazil, have already been readmitted. An indult permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass could help to bring remaining Lefebvrists and many other traditional Catholics back to the fold.
The priests of England and Wales are among those sometimes given permission to celebrate the Old Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Tridentine Masses are said regularly at the Oratory and St James’s Spanish Place in London, but are harder to find outside the capital.
The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.
Catholic bloggers have been anticipating the indult for months. The Cornell Society blog says that Father Martin Edwards, a London priest, was told by Cardinal Joseph Zen, of Hong Kong, that the indult had been signed. Cardinal Zen is alleged to have had this information from the Pope himself in a private meeting.
“There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,” a source told The Times. “But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.”
The 1962 Missal issued by Pope John XXIII was the last of several revisions of the 1570 Missal of Pius V. In a lecture in 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger said that it would be “fatal” for the Missal to be “placed in a deep-freeze, left like a national park, a park protected for the sake of a certain kind of people, for whom one leaves available these relics of the past”.
Daphne McLeod, chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, a UK umbrella group that campaigns for the restoration of traditional orthodoxy, said: “A lot of young priests are teaching themselves the Tridentine Mass because it is so beautiful and has prayers that go back to the Early Church.”
TRADITIONAL SERVICE
The Tridentine Mass is celebrated entirely in Latin, except for a few words and phrases in Greek and Hebrew. There are long periods of silence and the priest has his back to the congregation
In 1570, Pope St Pius V said that priests could use the Tridentine rite forever, “without scruple of conscience or fear of penalty”
Since the Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass has been almost entirely superseded by the Mass of Pope Paul VI
Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who took the lead in opposing the reforms, continued to celebrate the old Mass at his seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, and formed a dissident group. He was excommunicated in 1988
The advantages of the Mass, according to the faithful, are in its uniformity and the fact that movements and gestures are prescribed, so that there is no room for “personalisation”


 

csanopal

Electoral Member
Dec 22, 2006
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This is ridiculously alarmist. He is just extending an indult already issued by Pope John Paul II. Tridentine masses performed under indult have already been happening for years, and are old news, and it's not like anyone's throwing the Novus Ordo out of the window.

Media. Sheesh.
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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SO glad to hear this!!! Now all we need are willing priests to do this.


Pope Benedict!
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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i can understand it's traditional, but it's not much good to the congregation, unless they go out and take a degree in latin. apparently no-one knows how to pronounce latin correctly anyway
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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i can understand it's traditional, but it's not much good to the congregation, unless they go out and take a degree in latin. apparently no-one knows how to pronounce latin correctly anyway

If the Latin Mass returned, I would not be sorry. Nor would I see it as a step forward. Rather, it would a return to a previous position, so that a truly forward move can be made this time, as opposed to last time.

Saying that, I suspect very strongly that what we have here is not a non-Latin Mass problem, but an English Mass problem. One trouble with the move to the vernacular was that there were so many of them, and unfortunately, the pop psychologists got in on the ground floor in coming up with the English Mass. Whenever there was a choice between praying a hard truth, and making the folks feel good, guess which one won? For instance, the Confession was utterly gutted -- it got in the way of feeling warm and fuzzy.

I've been where the English Mass is celebrated with dignity and solemnity (and the '70s "hymns" are nowhere to be heard), and it WORKS. But it came out in a form that was just too plastic in the hands of those who put the teachings of psychology ahead of the teachings of the Church in implementing the liturgy.

I cannot imagine anyone attending the Latin Mass coming away with the view that either the moment of consecration, or the moment of reception of Communion, was the high point of the Mass. Today, thanks to what was done with the English Mass, it's all too easy to find people who say it's when they hold hands at the Lord's Prayer.

And believe me, back in the days when the Mass was in Latin, we all knew exactly what the priest was saying.
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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And believe me, back in the days when the Mass was in Latin, we all knew exactly what the priest was saying.

how???


First, becase there were Missals most of us had in both English and Latin. Secondly, the parts of the Mass, even now, are pretty much standard so it dosen't take great intelligence to know the Creed, for example, or the Lord's Prayer since it is always in the same place in the Mass.

Most obviously though, regular attendance meant regular understanding.
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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you dont understand latin just by listening to it a lot. I suppose the translations helped though

Yes, you do. Trust me. I was raised with the Latin Mass and by the time I was a young woman I knew all the prayers of the Mass except the priests prayers. You weren't raised Catholic in the 1950's and 1960's, were you?!
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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knowing how to say them doesnt mean u know what they mean. i'm sorry but unless someone tells you you wouldnt just figure it out. u might get the gist though since english is latin-based.
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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knowing how to say them doesnt mean u know what they mean. i'm sorry but unless someone tells you you wouldnt just figure it out. u might get the gist though since english is latin-based.

Again, answer me this, were you raised Catholic? Because if you were, you'd know the prayers of the Mass.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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it's irrelevant. We're talking about languages, not religion. you cannot understand the german national anthem by singing it ten thousand times.
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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it's irrelevant. We're talking about languages, not religion. you cannot understand the german national anthem by singing it ten thousand times.


It is relevant. You're just being obtuse.Saying, for example, the Creed over and over every Sunday and Holy Day, year after year after year and you DO know what each sentence stands for and means.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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how? i admit u may be able to glean some meaning from the root words which sound similar to some of the words in english or french or spanish maybe, if you knew some. the point is that u can't just pick meaning from words simply because u hear them repeated. try it with japanese for instance. watch a japanese movie ten thousand times and u still wont know what they're saying.

it's still irrelevant but no i am not catholic or old.
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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how? i admit u may be able to glean some meaning from the root words which sound similar to some of the words in english or french or spanish maybe, if you knew some. the point is that u can't just pick meaning from words simply because u hear them repeated. try it with japanese for instance. watch a japanese movie ten thousand times and u still wont know what they're saying.

it's still irrelevant but no i am not catholic or old.


Thought not. Ask anybody who was raised with the true Mass and they'll all know what each prayer means, and the proper responses.

By the way, are you calling me old!:)
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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you are avoiding the point. think logically... if you do not know the meaning of a word, you cannot know it simply by hearing it again. if i tell you that you're a spaphooni, you don't know what that is do you? now say it ten times... any ideas yet?

you see?

yes i was claling you old, but in a jestful kind of way. :D
 

mapleleafgirl

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Dec 13, 2006
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you are avoiding the point. think logically... if you do not know the meaning of a word, you cannot know it simply by hearing it again. if i tell you that you're a spaphooni, you don't know what that is do you? now say it ten times... any ideas yet?

you see?

yes i was claling you old, but in a jestful kind of way. :D

why are you arguing with her anyway. shes told you twenty times already she understands it and you keep telling her she cant. dont you believe her?

that has been pretty well, with respect, the last six posts. you say she cant understand, she comes back and says she can, you return say she cant..etc.etc.etc