Religion Questions to ponder.

AndyF
#1
Seems like we have a wide variation of dis/beliefs on this forum. To get an idea where everyone is coming from, maybe you'd like to contribute your ideas.

1/How much does your level of disinterest in religion in general impact on your joining one.?

2/How much does being obligated to obey an additional set of rules,change attitude and expected to perform in a specified manner additional to the set society imposes, turn you off to religion.?

3/After quiting the church you were attending, and now you have become a member of another church/mosque, are you now a devout follower/parishioner attending regularly and adher to the precepts/obligations of the church/mosque you found to replace it? If you don't attend regularly is this because you disagree with it's precepts, or attribute that to some failing in yourself?

4/What is your level of resolve to find an ideal religion? (determined,mildly interested,moderately interested, could care(really) less?)

5/How much of a threat to your well being and happiness does the existance/non existance of God and His obligations impose.?

6/What motivates you and what do you hope to gain by convincing someone there is/is no God.?

7/If a parent and you believe precepts of a religion/God are an integral part of every person's/your life, do you or don't you ensure your children are brought up in that belief?

additionally and optionally............


8/ How does the kind of people who attend your church affect your attitude and relation with God?

9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them
to serve the church?

10/Do you think the lay people who are sinless and/or never sinned should be the only ones to attend church.?

11/Should the church be a guide to morality for society?

12/ what are the indicators of a true church of God.?

Well if I miss one, please feel free.

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As for me.

1/ N/A I'm a member
2/ Generally I like it. Not at all, but I'm not 100% in all these areas..
3/ N/A
4/N/A
5/ I believe in God, but I fall short in the obligations department and that is where the risk lays.
6/ Motivation is by obligation, and hope that some people are persuaded.
7/ Trying but not successful so far. The deceptive riches of the West distract them and give them a false reliance that they can handle anything themselves.
8/ no impact
9/ no
10/no, that would be the wrong purpose
11/yes

AndyF
Last edited by AndyF; Jan 19th, 2007 at 12:39 PM..
 
L Gilbert
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyFView Post


1/How much does your level of disinterest in religion in general impact on your joining one.?

Not at all. I'm an atheist and I enjoy religions because they are interesting and they provide me with people to debate with.

Quote:

2/How much does being obligated to obey an additional set of rules,change attitude and expected to perform in a specified manner additional to the set society imposes, turn you off to religion.?

I have the same set of rules: 6 of the 10 commandments (4 are inapplicable to atheists) and the cardinal sins without religion so the point is somewhat irrelevant.

Quote:

3/After quiting the church you were attending, and now you have become a member of another church/mosque, are you now a devout follower/parishioner attending regularly and adher to the precepts of the church/mosque you found to replace it? If you don't attend regularly is this because you disagree with it's precepts, or attribute that to some failing in yourself?

Not applicable.

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4/What is your level of resolve to find an ideal religion? (determined,mildly interested,moderately interested, could care(really) less?)

0
The concept I like the most, I found a long time ago and it is Taoism.

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5/How much of a threat to your well being and happiness does the existance/non existance of God and His obligations impose.?

Depends on how many proselytisers I meet. The more there are, the less happy I am because of the interruption. My life is on my schedule, not theirs.

Quote:

6/What motivates you and what do you hope to gain by convincing someone there is/is no God.?

Food motivates me, fun motivates me, etc. Not trying to convince anyone that there aren't gods, vampyres, faeries, etc. I know I can't anyway; people have to do their own convincing. I just like making people think about what they "believe".

Quote:

7/If a parent and you believe precepts of a religion/God are an integral part of every person's/your life, do you or don't you ensure your children are brought up in that belief?

I introduc as much of life to (any) kids as I possibly could. What they do with the knowledge and experience is up to them.

additionally and optionally............


Quote:

8/ How does the kind of people who attend your church affect your attitude and relation with God?

Not applicable.

Quote:

9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them
to serve the church?

While serving their church, yes they should be sinless. Before that, no.

Quote:

10/Do you think the lay people who are sinless and/or never sinned should be the only ones to attend church.?

Hardly.

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11/Should the church be a guide to morality for society?

One of them.

Quote:

12/ what are the indicators of a true church of God.?

Dogma, rites, followers, etc.

I feel compelled to add that dogma is not strictly a bad thing:

from Merriam Webster;

Dogma

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
 
Dexter Sinister
#3
1/How much does your level of disinterest in religion in general impact on your joining one.? Not at all. I have a strong interest in religion as a human activity and what its apparent universality says about human nature, and no interest in joining one.

2/How much does being obligated to obey an additional set of rules,change attitude and expected to perform in a specified manner additional to the set society imposes, turn you off to religion.? Those are not the reasons I turned away from it personally. I'm not turned off to religion, though some of its followers certainly vex me.

3/After quiting the church you were attending, and now you have become a member of another church/mosque, are you now a devout follower/parishioner attending regularly and adher to the precepts/obligations of the church/mosque you found to replace it? If you don't attend regularly is this because you disagree with it's precepts, or attribute that to some failing in yourself? I quit the church I grew up in, investigated a few others and found no significant difference, and eventually arrived at the atheist position. I disagree with their precepts, and do not consider it a failing in myself.

4/What is your level of resolve to find an ideal religion? (determined,mildly interested,moderately interested, could care(really) less?) Zero. I maintain there's no such thing.

5/How much of a threat to your well being and happiness does the existance/non existance of God and His obligations impose.? None.

6/What motivates you and what do you hope to gain by convincing someone there is/is no God.? I wouldn't try to convince anyone there's no god, merely that it's extremely improbable. My motives are to promote clear and critical thinking, logic and reason, and a respect for how nature actually is based on the evidence, rather than how we want it to be.

7/If a parent and you believe precepts of a religion/God are an integral part of every person's/your life, do you or don't you ensure your children are brought up in that belief? I am a parent and I tried to teach my children to think for themselves and challenge all authority, including mine.

8/ How does the kind of people who attend your church affect your attitude and relation with God? N/A

9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them
to serve the church?
No. That's asking way too much. Depending of course on what you think sin means; I'm assuming you mean the usual Christian definition.

10/Do you think the lay people who are sinless and/or never sinned should be the only ones to attend church.? No again, same reason.

11/Should the church be a guide to morality for society? A guide, yes, An enforcer, no.

12/ what are the indicators of a true church of God.? Well, since I don't believe there are supernatural beings of any sort, I'd have to say there are none.
 
L Gilbert
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them to serve the church? No. That's asking way too much. Depending of course on what you think sin means; I'm assuming you mean the usual Christian definition.

Don't you think the job should be held to the same standards as employment anywhere else? Employers prefer people to do their jobs adequately without causing grief or interruption.
 
AndyF
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Not at all. I'm an atheist and I enjoy religions because they are interesting and they provide me with people to debate with.

MMMMmmmm. A lot of subjects do that. Nothing else maybe? You don't note an unusual draw of some kind? .

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I have the same set of rules: 6 of the 10 commandments (4 are inapplicable to atheists) and the cardinal sins without religion so the point is somewhat irrelevant.

Very interesting!

Quote:

While serving their church, yes they should be sinless. Before that, no

I was hoping someone would catch this one as I found so many people looking for a religion more people/social focused than they should. IMHO.

Thanx for the post.

AndyF
 
L Gilbert
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyFView Post

MMMMmmmm. A lot of subjects do that. Nothing else maybe? You don't note an unusual draw of some kind? .

The depth of interest I have in a subject depends on how much fun I think I can have with it. We could debate which sports figure is better at something than the other, but I have a low interest in sports so my interest in the debate would dissipate extremely early. Perhaps you fnd that "unusual" but it's a normal thing for me.

Quote:

Thanx for the post.

AndyF

You're welcome.
 
Gonzo
#7
1/How much does your level of disinterest in religion in general impact on your joining one.?
I have not found any religion that conforms to what I believe. I have my own and no one can change that.

2/How much does being obligated to obey an additional set of rules,change attitude and expected to perform in a specified manner additional to the set society imposes, turn you off to religion.?
Some of the rules in religion are so outdated that I would never join. The fact that these rules where imposed to keep people bound to that religion and scare them from leaving turns me off of any faith completley.

3/After quiting the church you were attending, and now you have become a member of another church/mosque, are you now a devout follower/parishioner attending regularly and adher to the precepts/obligations of the church/mosque you found to replace it? If you don't attend regularly is this because you disagree with it's precepts, or attribute that to some failing in yourself?
I never joined any church, but went a few times with my dad when i was young and found that the church and it's followers had many failings and thats when i decided i would never join.

4/What is your level of resolve to find an ideal religion? (determined,mildly interested,moderately interested, could care(really) less?)
I think there is no ideal religion out there and I would be selling myself out to abandon ideals i have to conform to any religion.

5/How much of a threat to your well being and happiness does the existance/non existance of God and His obligations impose.?
God should never be a threat.

6/What motivates you and what do you hope to gain by convincing someone there is/is no God.?
You should never try to convince anyone that there is a God. If they want to believe in God, good. If not, thats fine too. People have rights to believe in whatever they want. We dont live in the dark ages.

7/If a parent and you believe precepts of a religion/God are an integral part of every person's/your life, do you or don't you ensure your children are brought up in that belief?
Children will believe in whatever they want. If you try to get them to conform to your religion they will rebel against it. Best to let them decide on there own.

additionally and optionally............


8/ How does the kind of people who attend your church affect your attitude and relation with God?
Your relationship with God is between you and God and other people shouldn't factor into it.

9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them
to serve the church?
If you believe in sin, then no one is sinless.

10/Do you think the lay people who are sinless and/or never sinned should be the only ones to attend church.?
No.

11/Should the church be a guide to morality for society?
Kind of tough when allot of churches act without moral.

12/ what are the indicators of a true church of God.?
There are none. It's faith, so there is no proof.
 
Dexter Sinister
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Don't you think the job should be held to the same standards as employment anywhere else? Employers prefer people to do their jobs adequately without causing grief or interruption.

Sure, but I don't know of any employer who makes freedom from sin a condition of employment. My understanding of Christian dogma, strongly reinforced by sanctus' thread about our sinfulness, is that only Jesus and his mother were ever free from sin. There could be no clergy under that requirement.
 
look3467
#9
Quote:

Seems like we have a wide variation of dis/beliefs on this forum. To get an idea where everyone is coming from, maybe you'd like to contribute your ideas. >>>AndyF

Quote:

1/How much does your level of disinterest in religion in general impact on your joining one.?

I will not be joining any established religious organization, because acquired an all inclusive view of the outcome of mankindís souls.

Quote:

2/How much does being obligated to obey an additional set of rules, change attitude and expected to perform in a specified manner additional to the set society imposes, turn you off to religion?

There is no turn off towards any religious group. Reason being is that I hold a an understanding that is inclusive of all groups.

Quote:

3/After quitting the church you were attending, and now you have become a member of another church/mosque, are you now a devout follower/parishioner attending regularly and adhere to the precepts of the church/mosque you found to replace it? If you don't attend regularly is this because you disagree with its precepts, or attribute that to some failing in yourself?

My up-ward mobility in my religious training, have led me to experience the views of various religious beliefs.
By studying their beliefs I was able to arrive at a common ground with all beliefs.
Included, are the ones who believe not in God as well.

Quote:

4/What is your level of resolve to find an ideal religion? (Determined, mildly interested, moderately interested, and could care (really) less?)

Really care: But caring in a different way. Teaching, instructing and helping my neighbor as best as I can. Itís a view that allows rejection or acceptance.

Quote:

5/How much of a threat to your well being and happiness does the existence/non existence of God and His obligations impose?

The existence of God is a Key role in our earthly life. Everybody born on this earth is subject to all the same conditions that this earth has to offer. And this earth holds no mercy to its inhabitants except were it not for the intervention of a loving God in its lives.

God holds compassion, mercy and forgiveness to all who would just come to Him.

Quote:

6/ What motivates you and what do you hope to gain by convincing someone there is/is no God?

What I find interesting, is those who believe not in God would even bother to argue against it. It only stands to reason that if there is no God, why argue as if there was one?
Obviously, they believe that there is a God, but are trying to convince them selves that there is none.

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7/If a parent and you believe precepts of a religion/God are an integral part of every person's/your life, do you or don't you ensure your children are brought up in that belief?

Additionally and optionally............

There is absolutely anything not right about raising oneís own children in the religious beliefs of the parents.
Each individual soul, will find itís own way as time and chance happen to them.

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8/ How does the kind of people who attend your church affect your attitude and relation with God?

My views are that according to the degree of religious education one holds, determines the path of belief one takes.

Quote:

9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them
to serve the church?

Those who serve must serve in example, of what their beliefs dictate. Sinless? No, not one, we are all sinners regardless of beliefs.

Quote:

10/Do you think the lay people who are sinless and/or never sinned should be the only ones to attend church.?

Church is as like a hospital, were the spiritually ill go to be fed spiritually first, and then for fellowship second, and for community help third.

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11/Should the church be a guide to morality for society?

If it wants to be a good witness of their beliefs.

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12/ what are the indicators of a true church of God.?

Any religious group or non-religious groups, in which whose laws and practices demonstrate not love, are a false group.

God is love, and if we claim to know Him, then we must love as He loves.
Non-believers are not exempt, for they have the same ability to love, except they donít want to admit it because love is of God.

They exercise love but give not credit to the originator of love: God.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Giving thanks to God can only be purposeth in ones heart. So God gives those who donít believe in Him the option of what they purpose in their heart to do.

For God is able to make the stones cry out to Him if thatís what He wanted, but instead gives us the choice to do so with our hearts.

Love is what God is! He demonstrated it in Jesus by forgiving all who persecuted Him.

If that isnít love, what is?

Peace>>>AJ
 
AndyF
#10
Dex:

Quote:

......n't believe there are supernatural beings of any sort, I'd have to say there are none.

I won't press you to take a shot at it, as we sort of went through that before.

Your posts are always interesting.!

thnx.!

AndyF
 
L Gilbert
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Sure, but I don't know of any employer who makes freedom from sin a condition of employment. My understanding of Christian dogma, strongly reinforced by sanctus' thread about our sinfulness, is that only Jesus and his mother were ever free from sin. There could be no clergy under that requirement.

Yeah, I can appreciate that, but geeeeeez, Dex, calling someone a sinner even though they've never done anything harmful in ther life is ludicrous and perfectly religious. So if a person follows whichever set of rules without fail, they shouldn't reasonably be called "sinner" or "lawbreaker".
 
AndyF
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

I will not be joining any established religious organization, because acquired an all inclusive view of the outcome of mankindís souls.



I don't understand how the relation between the state of everyone else's soul collectively, assists you in saving your individual soul.? Are you saying in effect your taking from each religion those attributes that you feel can contribute to saving yours, and leaving the rest behind?

Quote:

Included, are the ones who believe not in God as well.



Specifically, what is your common ground taken from those who don't believe?

Quote:

And this earth holds no mercy to its inhabitants except were it not for the intervention of a loving God in its lives.



Well put!

Quote:

What I find interesting, is those who believe not in God would even bother to argue against it. It only stands to reason that if there is no God, why argue as if there was one?
Obviously, they believe that there is a God, but are trying to convince them selves that there is none.



Exactly, if their life is measured in minutes and days as a finite life is, why waste those minutes convincing someone else there is no God. The irony is God still manages to be a key part of his life as an object of discussion.

Thanx for posting.

AndyF
 
AndyF
#13
Gilbert:

What I meant by unusual is, that perhaps you could be being guided spiritually in interest to religious topics, same for Dex.?

Just wondering.

AndyF
 
L Gilbert
#14
Um, your god of love also is a god of hate, fear, mass-murder, etc. as is demonstrated in the OT. So if someone is ruled by hate their whole life, they're a result of the god of hate which is that very same god of yours.

There's that concept that people arguing against religions are doing just that simply for the reason of convincing people of something. I argue with you people simply because it's fun, not because I'm trying to convince you of anything. I know it's a tough concept to grasp but try anyway.
Last edited by L Gilbert; Jan 19th, 2007 at 03:06 PM..
 
L Gilbert
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyFView Post

Gilbert:

What I meant by unusual is, that perhaps you could be being guided spiritually in interest to religious topics, same for Dex.?

Just wondering.

AndyF

Nope. There's no such thing as spirit. Some religious topics are fun, simple as that. I also have an interest in woodworking and socialising and playing with my mutts. All my motivations in whatever topic is a result of brain activity. The conscious part of that cranial activity is what is called "mind". I have no such thing as a spirit in me and my heart is a muscle that pumps blood.
 
Dexter Sinister
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyFView Post

...perhaps you could be being guided spiritually in interest to religious topics, same for Dex.?

Presumably you mean guided by the unseen hand of god, or something like that? Doesn't seem likely; everything I learn about religion just seems to reinforce my view that it's entirely a human invention, very specific to time, place, and culture, and has nothing to do with any external reality. It appears to be an expression of an almost universal and deeply felt human need, which presumably has some survival value or evolution wouldn't have planted it so strongly in us, but I don't think religiosity is its original purpose.

But I don't want to hijack your very interesting thread into a discussion of that. So I won't.
 
AndyF
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Sure, but I don't know of any employer who makes freedom from sin a condition of employment. My understanding of Christian dogma, strongly reinforced by sanctus' thread about our sinfulness, is that only Jesus and his mother were ever free from sin. There could be no clergy under that requirement.

As an aside Dex, I discussed this on another forum I'm a member of. I find it hard to believe that Mary has a child didn't stick her tongue out at another girl, or yank a pig tail, or spilled something and try to cover it with a mat. I made the point that as a little girl she must have acted like a typical girl and that would not have taken away her qualification has God's mother as an adult. No takers.

I suggested we take the situation from the perfect girl approach. The Jews would make a passing notice and a casual mention maybe once or twice (over tea?) , but eventually everyone would notice it pretty soon. Especially since these Jews traditionally lived religion minute to minute. No takers.

And finally a sure thing I thought (held in reserve), then for sure Satan and his minions would have been on the watch for her has scripture makes a mention of the redemption. If temptations were reportedly continually being bounced off her, wouldn't that send off alarm bells and whistles to them, to have some misfortune befall her long before the flight from Egypt occured.? No takers.

I personally have no problem in Mary being a good girl rather than a perfect girl.

So brick walls are common in the religious sphere as well.

AndyF
Last edited by AndyF; Jan 19th, 2007 at 05:02 PM..
 
talloola
#18
[quote=AndyF;770110]Seems like we have a wide variation of dis/beliefs on this forum. To get an idea where everyone is coming from, maybe you'd like to contribute your ideas.

1/How much does your level of disinterest in religion in general impact on your joining one.?
I have zero level of interest in religion, so the same applies to joining one.

2/How much does being obligated to obey an additional set of rules,change attitude and expected to perform in a specified manner additional to the set society imposes, turn you off to religion.?
Religious rules have no effect on me whasoever, I don't even think about them, but I put a very
high value on the rules of life and family.

3/After quiting the church you were attending, and now you have become a member of another church/mosque, are you now a devout follower/parishioner attending regularly and adher to the precepts/obligations of the church/mosque you found to replace it? If you don't attend regularly is this because you disagree with it's precepts, or attribute that to some failing in yourself?
I attended catholic school/catechism/church till about 12 yrs. old, then my own beliefs began to change, and I had to listen to my inner voice, telling me other things that made much more sense,
.so, I gradually grew away from any/every religion.

4/What is your level of resolve to find an ideal religion? (determined,mildly interested,moderately interested, could care(really) less?)
I have no interest in doing that,but I do like the way the "first nations" obey and respect the earth, I know they also
talk of spirits, but their connection to the earth moves me in a spiritual way, I understand that concept.
5/How much of a threat to your well being and happiness does the existance/non existance of God and His obligations impose.?
Non whatsoever.
6/What motivates you and what do you hope to gain by convincing someone there is/is no God.?
I would never try to convince someone there is no god, but on this forum I have/will give my
opinion for myself, and, in my everyday life, I do not discuss religion, at all, with anyone, other than my own family.
I refuse, as many people want to get into "heated" debates, and I will not spoil a good visit, with anyone by giving
them that opportunity, and that usually applies to politics as well.
7/If a parent and you believe precepts of a religion/God are an integral part of every person's/your life, do you or don't you ensure your children are brought up in that belief?
My children were introduced to the catholic religion when they were very young, and later, they
were encouraged to decide for themselves, what they wanted to do in this regard I do think it is
important to understand what religion "is". I don't like to hear children/teenagers/adults, look
completely "blank" when the subject of "religion" comes up, they should have some knowledge
of what it is, just like many other subjects.

"additionally and optionally............

8/ How does the kind of people who attend your church affect your attitude and relation with God?
N/A
9/Do you think the church's clergy should be sinless and/or never sinned in order for them
to serve the church?
Well, I suppose most religious people would like to think their clergy is sinless, but we know better
don't we.
10/Do you think the lay people who are sinless and/or never sinned should be the only ones to attend church.?
There are no such people, the word "sin' I guess applies to religion, but that word can be used to
describe the behavior of people in society as well. For me, it is "just" a descriptive word, I use it
from time to time, guess it's leftover from my early catholic education, for me it means that one
has broken a behavioral rule, and doing so, has caused someone else discomfort.

11/Should the church be a guide to morality for society?
I don't think society needs the church, so that they can be moral, but an institution that preaches so
much "rightousness", and "think" they are societies guide to morality, should behave themselves, so
they can set a good example for their perishioners.

12/ what are the indicators of a true church of God.?
That would be difficult to figure out, as they are all different, and they all say they "are" the true
church of god, so, I don't have a clue.
Well if I miss one, please feel free.

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Last edited by talloola; Jan 20th, 2007 at 02:14 AM..
 
AndyF
#19
talloola:

The reason I injected the "sin" questions is that it's common these days to place blame on something else, and for believers not going to Church is no exception. Many use the "I just discovered my preacher was a sinner" excuse, when in their conscience they were waiting for any excuse to cop out.

But I was quite surprised that the first person to get it right was a non believer, as this is basic stuff
taught in all denominations.
So I think the non believers deserve a high five in this thread.!!!

Thanks all for your contribution. Food for thought..

AndyF
 
look3467
#20
AndyF>>>I don't understand how the relation between the state of everyone else's soul collectively, assists you in saving your individual soul.? Are you saying in effect your taking from each religion those attributes that you feel can contribute to saving yours, and leaving the rest behind?

No. My salvation rests solely on one individual, that being Jesus Christ. And knowing and understanding the works of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I am of the opinion that all soles will be saved regardless.

Specifically, what is your common ground taken from those who don't believe?

The common ground is the same as first creation. The first creation was the first Adam (Flesh), the second creation is the second Adam, Jesus, (spirit).
First we are born flesh, then we are to be born Spirit. Now: or at death of the flesh.


Peace>>>AJ
 
talloola
#21
[quote=look3467;770503]AndyF>>>I don't understand how the relation between the state of everyone else's soul collectively, assists you in saving your individual soul.? Are you saying in effect your taking from each religion those attributes that you feel can contribute to saving yours, and leaving the rest behind?

No. My salvation rests solely on one individual, that being Jesus Christ. And knowing and understanding the works of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I am of the opinion that all soles will be saved regardless.

Specifically, what is your common ground taken from those who don't believe?

The common ground is the same as first creation. The first creation was the first Adam (Flesh), the second creation is the second Adam, Jesus, (spirit).
First we are born flesh, then we are to be born Spirit. Now: or at death of the flesh.


I really feel creepy and crawly being called "of the flesh", it;s like a slab of meat. Our bodies
are beautiful and our minds are amazing, and I won't ever consider myself being "of the flesh",
but I will when I look down on my cutting board and check out a "new york" steak.
 
Dexter Sinister
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

I really feel creepy and crawly being called "of the flesh", it;s like a slab of meat. Our bodies are beautiful and our minds are amazing, and I won't ever consider myself being "of the flesh",
but I will when I look down on my cutting board and check out a "new york" steak.

Oh, very nicely, concisely, and eloquently said. I know exactly how you feel. Remember that line from the old Christmas carol about Good King Wenceslas when he tells his page, "Bring me flesh and bring me wine...?" Flesh is meat, something to eat, not me.
 
L Gilbert
#23
rofl queasy?
Wait'll you see and get a whiff of yer first crispy. Now that's grim.
 
look3467
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by AndyFView Post

talloola:

The reason I injected the "sin" questions is that it's common these days to place blame on something else, and for believers not going to Church is no exception. Many use the "I just discovered my preacher was a sinner" excuse, when in their conscience they were waiting for any excuse to cop out.

But I was quite surprised that the first person to get it right was a non believer, as this is basic stuff
taught in all denominations.
So I think the non believers deserve a high five in this thread.!!!

Thanks all for your contribution. Food for thought..

AndyF

Sin can not be known unless it is revealed by God. This is an absolute!

Apart from God, sin does not exist. If one does not believe in God, then one does not believe in sin as defined by God, therefore, sin does not exist.

Sin then has to be exposed to be sin.

The story of Adam and Eve found themselves naked not because of the physical eye, but because of knowledge gained, did they know that they were naked.(Separated from God)


Naked, not as without clothes, but not being in the presence of God: Separated from God as depicted by the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

The expulsion (Separation from God) is spiritual death: thus sin.

The creation of flesh then was created in a sin state.

If, an un-believer believes in sin, then they believe in God!

Deny sin is to deny God.

These are observations based on my knowledge of Gods works and the answers given here and another thread by the unbelievers which only confirmed my understanding of the sin question.

Peace>>AJ
 
L Gilbert
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

Sin can not be known unless it is revealed by God. This is an absolute!

Apart from God, sin does not exist. If one does not believe in God, then one does not believe in sin as defined by God, therefore, sin does not exist.

Sin then has to be exposed to be sin.

So it's okay to kill, covet, and con then, cuz it doesn't exist for me. Cool. Still don't wanna do that stuff.


Quote:

If, an un-believer believes in sin, then they believe in God!

What kinda meds are you on?

Quote:

Deny sin is to deny God.

These are observations based on my knowledge of Gods works and the answers given here and another thread by the unbelievers which only confirmed my understanding of the sin question.

Peace>>AJ

I call it sin because it's convenient, being only a word in the dictionary. Any other time they are crimes or woefully stupid. So I think you should observe that.
 
Dexter Sinister
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

Sin can not be known unless it is revealed by God. This is an absolute!

Apart from God, sin does not exist. If one does not believe in God, then one does not believe in sin as defined by God, therefore, sin does not exist.

Sin then has to be exposed to be sin.

...

These are observations based on my knowledge of Gods works and the answers given here and another thread by the unbelievers which only confirmed my understanding of the sin question.

What thread is that? Sanctus' thread about how we can free ourselves from our sinfulness?

So, sin being an offense against god, if there is no god, which I believe to be almost certainly a true claim, how does it follow that sin even *can* be exposed as sin, never mind having to be?
 
L Gilbert
#27
From Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: 1sin
Pronunciation: 'sin
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is -- more at IS
1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
synonym see OFFENSE

Notice the parts in red? Sin isn't only applicable to religion anyway. How do you square that circle, Looky?
 
look3467
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

From Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: 1sin [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/OWNER%7E1.ABE/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
Pronunciation: 'sin
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is -- more at IS
1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
synonym see OFFENSE

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Looky here bro, you just proved my point. Number 1 gives the definition: ďan offense against religious or moral lawĒ.
And you further added Number 2: ďtransgression of the law of GodĒ.

And again you added a third: Offense!

The offense of sin is expulsion.

Means death!

Peace>>>AJ
 
L Gilbert
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by look3467View Post

Looky here bro, you just proved my point. Number 1 gives the definition: ďan offense against religious or moral lawĒ.
And you further added Number 2: ďtransgression of the law of GodĒ.

And again you added a third: Offense!

The offense of sin is expulsion.

Means death!

Peace>>>AJ

Well, seeing as gods don't exist except in human's minds, the only definitions that work in reality are 1a. an offense against moral law, 1b. an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible, or 1c. an often serious shortcoming.
BTW, I didn't add #2, it's what was written in Merriam-Webster. And what you call #3 wasn't a definition, it was a synonym. Not too familiar with dictionaries, are you?
 
talloola
#30
[quote=Dexter Sinister;770519]Oh, very nicely, concisely, and eloquently said. I know exactly how you feel. Remember that line from the old Christmas carol about Good King Wenceslas when he tells his page, "Bring me flesh and bring me wine...?" Flesh is meat, something to eat, not me

yeah, it seems to relate to cannabalism - um, uh, oh no, --- I won't go there.
 

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