Newbie
Posts: 32 
Location: dead account
Location: dead account
December 31st, 2006, 03:04 PM
These quotes from the bible are very interesting. Let's hope our fanatic-religious leaders are not following everything said on the bible
Here is the best one:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man
http://home.earthlink.net/~owl233/biblequotes.htm
These quotes from the bible are very interesting. Let's hope our fanatic-religious leaders are not following everything said on the bible
Here is the best one:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man
http://home.earthlink.net/~owl233/biblequotes.htm
House Member
Posts: 4,565 
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
December 31st, 2006, 11:29 PM
We have had previous discussions on this forum about that subject. Problems can arise when quotes are made out of context as was done in that site and has been done previously in discussions about the Koran. A better way to discuss seemingly 'scary' passages is to do so in full context so that meanings can be explored and utilized in more rational and peaceful manners.
We have had previous discussions on this forum about that subject. Problems can arise when quotes are made out of context as was done in that site and has been done previously in discussions about the Koran. A better way to discuss seemingly 'scary' passages is to do so in full context so that meanings can be explored and utilized in more rational and peaceful manners.
House Member
Posts: 3,659
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
January 1st, 2007, 12:20 AM
Generally you're right, gopher, the Bible and the Koran are sufficiently large and complex documents that you can find support in them for any position you'd care to take if you pay no attention to context. But one of the difficulties with those lists of prescribed and proscribed behaviours that we find in Leviticus and Deuteronomy is that they have no context in that sense, they're just lists of rules with no connection to each other, they stand or fall on their own. A lot of them are pretty barbaric in contemporary terms, and while some of them, like the rules against eating pork and shellfish, might have made sense in the context of a tribal desert culture with no real knowledge of disease or hygiene as we currently understand them, a lot of them seem to be purely barbaric, quite apart from the legal trouble you'd be in if you followed them now. I don't think anybody would seriously suggest we should stone adulterers to death, for instance, though the OT's pretty clear about that: we should. We should also stone to death our "stubborn and rebellious sons," and kill people who plant two different crops in the same field, or wear clothing made of more than one kind of fibre. It's hard to see any sense in those, and there are no mitigating passages around them that'd help us make sense of them, they're just listed without explanation as things we should do.
All of which adds up to the fact that nobody, not even the most doctrinaire Christian, really uses the Bible as the source of morality and ethics. People pick and choose what suits current social conditions and their own particular agenda, and any Biblically based ethics are thus just post hoc rationalizations.
Generally you're right, gopher, the Bible and the Koran are sufficiently large and complex documents that you can find support in them for any position you'd care to take if you pay no attention to context. But one of the difficulties with those lists of prescribed and proscribed behaviours that we find in Leviticus and Deuteronomy is that they have no context in that sense, they're just lists of rules with no connection to each other, they stand or fall on their own. A lot of them are pretty barbaric in contemporary terms, and while some of them, like the rules against eating pork and shellfish, might have made sense in the context of a tribal desert culture with no real knowledge of disease or hygiene as we currently understand them, a lot of them seem to be purely barbaric, quite apart from the legal trouble you'd be in if you followed them now. I don't think anybody would seriously suggest we should stone adulterers to death, for instance, though the OT's pretty clear about that: we should. We should also stone to death our "stubborn and rebellious sons," and kill people who plant two different crops in the same field, or wear clothing made of more than one kind of fibre. It's hard to see any sense in those, and there are no mitigating passages around them that'd help us make sense of them, they're just listed without explanation as things we should do.
All of which adds up to the fact that nobody, not even the most doctrinaire Christian, really uses the Bible as the source of morality and ethics. People pick and choose what suits current social conditions and their own particular agenda, and any Biblically based ethics are thus just post hoc rationalizations.
disturber of the peace
Posts: 1,546
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada...after growing up in Thunder Bay, Ontario.
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada...after growing up in Thunder Bay, Ontario.
March 2nd, 2007, 11:17 PM
Although I agree...I think it is fair to say that some do, very much, stand on their own, and are, indeed, very scary quotes...and, if people say that they must stick to the letter of the bible to preserve traditional marriage, and yet, cast many of these lines and rules aside...well...why? It shows that the bible is a book where people pick and choose what they want to follow and what they don't. If people followed some of the stuff mentioned in those lines...well...we'd have a very different society, and the catholic church would be very different from what it is today.
Although I agree...I think it is fair to say that some do, very much, stand on their own, and are, indeed, very scary quotes...and, if people say that they must stick to the letter of the bible to preserve traditional marriage, and yet, cast many of these lines and rules aside...well...why? It shows that the bible is a book where people pick and choose what they want to follow and what they don't. If people followed some of the stuff mentioned in those lines...well...we'd have a very different society, and the catholic church would be very different from what it is today.
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
March 2nd, 2007, 11:32 PM
[quote=CanadienA1;762047]These quotes from the bible are very interesting. Let's hope our fanatic-religious leaders are not following everything said on the bible
Here is the best one:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man
http://home.earthlink.net/~owl233/biblequotes.htm[/quote]
In concert with the whole entire bible, that verse reveals who Jesus is! He is the first of which we all are second after Him.
That is not scary, but thank God for that because now we all have hope.
Peace>>>AJ
[quote=CanadienA1;762047]These quotes from the bible are very interesting. Let's hope our fanatic-religious leaders are not following everything said on the bible
Here is the best one:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man
http://home.earthlink.net/~owl233/biblequotes.htm[/quote]
In concert with the whole entire bible, that verse reveals who Jesus is! He is the first of which we all are second after Him.
That is not scary, but thank God for that because now we all have hope.
Peace>>>AJ
House Member
Posts: 3,659
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
March 3rd, 2007, 01:07 AM
Quoting look3467
Second? Sounds like we're all hopelessly dead last compared to Jesus. It clearly says no one's ever gone to Heaven but him. I'd agree it's not scary, but that's only because I think it's fiction.
[In concert with the whole entire bible, that verse reveals who Jesus is! He is the first of which we all are second after Him.
That is not scary, but thank God for that because now we all have hope.
That is not scary, but thank God for that because now we all have hope.
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
March 3rd, 2007, 02:28 AM
You and I are both equal in His site.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Was hopelessly dead! But becuase of Jesus being the first man to enter heaven, we now all have hope.
Second? Sounds like we're all hopelessly dead last compared to Jesus. It clearly says no one's ever gone to Heaven but him. I'd agree it's not scary, but that's only because I think it's fiction.
You and I are both equal in His site.
Peace>>>AJ
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
March 3rd, 2007, 02:30 AM
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting L Gilbert
Yes, loop holes! Some folks that's all they look for. As for me, I find it the information source of my salvation.
Well, the bible has no end of concepts with gaping holes in them. S'why I call it the holey Bible.
Peace>>>AJ
Electoral Member
Posts: 903
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 17th, 2007, 01:00 AM
I find this a little disturbing.
In the OT sin is defined as being an act, you had to 'physically do something', punishment was loss of life. Thankfully the punishment changed, but so did what would be considered as committing a sin.
Our thoughts alone now put us in sin.
M't:5:27:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The above is about adultery, it would also apply to everything else that is considered to be a sin.
Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
It is certainly easier to not physically sin that it is to 'think of something that is a sin'. I find that a little 'scary'.
I find this a little disturbing.
In the OT sin is defined as being an act, you had to 'physically do something', punishment was loss of life. Thankfully the punishment changed, but so did what would be considered as committing a sin.
Our thoughts alone now put us in sin.
M't:5:27:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The above is about adultery, it would also apply to everything else that is considered to be a sin.
Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
It is certainly easier to not physically sin that it is to 'think of something that is a sin'. I find that a little 'scary'.
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
March 17th, 2007, 02:14 AM
So, having said that, there then must be a way out of this mess we were placed in.
There had to be someone, some where at some time come with power over the mind and body, and fulfill the total requirements as expected, we might stand a chance.
And that person did come! That was God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Jesus had power over the mind and the flesh where we didn’t because He was born of God, while we were born of the flesh. Adam.
Jesus was born of the (Adam) flesh as well as of the spirit. (God) Making Him the second Adam.
He Jesus took the penalty of separation (death) away from us and granted us His righteousness for our salvation.
The whole point of the law was to show that mankind could not save self without the help of God.
Even if we followed the Ten Commandments, yet we would offend with our minds.
So the case for salvation was hopeless, until Christ came.
And for that, I am most greatful.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting MHz
The point is that we had no possible way of gaining salvation because the law condemned us at every turn. Even with our minds we sinned as though we had actually broken the law.
I find this a little disturbing.
In the OT sin is defined as being an act, you had to 'physically do something', punishment was loss of life. Thankfully the punishment changed, but so did what would be considered as committing a sin.
Our thoughts alone now put us in sin.
M't:5:27:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The above is about adultery, it would also apply to everything else that is considered to be a sin.
Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
It is certainly easier to not physically sin that it is to 'think of something that is a sin'. I find that a little 'scary'.
In the OT sin is defined as being an act, you had to 'physically do something', punishment was loss of life. Thankfully the punishment changed, but so did what would be considered as committing a sin.
Our thoughts alone now put us in sin.
M't:5:27:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The above is about adultery, it would also apply to everything else that is considered to be a sin.
Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
It is certainly easier to not physically sin that it is to 'think of something that is a sin'. I find that a little 'scary'.
So, having said that, there then must be a way out of this mess we were placed in.
There had to be someone, some where at some time come with power over the mind and body, and fulfill the total requirements as expected, we might stand a chance.
And that person did come! That was God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Jesus had power over the mind and the flesh where we didn’t because He was born of God, while we were born of the flesh. Adam.
Jesus was born of the (Adam) flesh as well as of the spirit. (God) Making Him the second Adam.
He Jesus took the penalty of separation (death) away from us and granted us His righteousness for our salvation.
The whole point of the law was to show that mankind could not save self without the help of God.
Even if we followed the Ten Commandments, yet we would offend with our minds.
So the case for salvation was hopeless, until Christ came.
And for that, I am most greatful.
Peace>>>AJ
Electoral Member
Posts: 903
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 17th, 2007, 02:46 AM
I would agree with most of what you said except for the above.
When Christ returns some of mankind will be with Him for the thousand years. The one that Jesus prayed to is not with man until Judgment Day.
Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.
Re:21:3:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Re:21:5:
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Of the many verses that are about the relationship between God and Christ none is more descriptive than Proverb:8:23-36.
Later
Quoting look3467
Hi AJ,
And that person did come! That was God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Peace>>>AJ
Peace>>>AJ
I would agree with most of what you said except for the above.
When Christ returns some of mankind will be with Him for the thousand years. The one that Jesus prayed to is not with man until Judgment Day.
Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.
Re:21:3:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Re:21:5:
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Of the many verses that are about the relationship between God and Christ none is more descriptive than Proverb:8:23-36.
Later
