Scientists and God

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Pope John Paul II
General Audience, Wednesday, 17 July, 1985. The Holy Father's catechesis was based on Sirach 43:30-33.
1. There exists a rather widespread notion that men of science are generally agnostics and that science leads one away from God. Is there any truth to this opinion?
The extraordinary advances of science, particularly over the last two centuries, have sometimes led to the belief that it is capable of answering by itself all of man's questions and of resolving all his problems. Some have concluded that by now there is no longer any need for God. For them, faith in science has supplanted faith in God.It has been said that one must choose between faith and science: either one embraces one or believes in the other. He who proceeds with a commitment to scientific research no longer has need of God; vice versa, he who wishes to believe in God cannot be a serious scientist, because between science and faith there is an irremediable conflict.
No conflict with faith
2. The Second Vatican Council expressed a very different conviction. In the Constitution Gaudium et Spes it is affirmed: "If methodical investigation within every branch of learning is carried out in accord with moral norms, it never truly conflicts with faith. For earthly matters and the concerns of faith derive from the same God. Indeed whoever labours to penetrate the secrets of reality with a humble and steady mind is, even unawares, being led by the hand of God, who holds all things in existence, and gives them their identity" (G S. 36).
It can in fact be pointed out that there have always been, and still are today, men of science who in the context of their human scientific experience have positively and beneficially believed in God. Fifty years ago a survey was made of 398 of the most illustrious scientists in the world in which only 16 declared themselves unbelievers, 15 agnostics and 367 believers (cf. A. Eymieu, La part des croyants dans les progres de la science, sixth ed., Perrin 1935, p. 274).
3. It is even more interesting and profitable to become aware of the reasons for which many scientists, past and present, see rigorously conducted scientific research as not only compatible, but even happily capable of integration with the sincere and joyous recognition of the existence of God.
From the considerations which often accompany their scientific endeavours in the manner of a spiritual diary, it is easy to see the intersection of two elements: the first is the way in which research itself, be it great or small, carried out with extreme rigour, always leaves an opening for further questions in an endless process which reveals in reality an immensity, a harmony, a finality which is not explainable in terms of causality or through scientific resources alone. To this is added the irrepressible question of meaning, of higher rationality -indeed, of something or of Someone capable of satisfying interior needs- which refined scientific progress itself ,far from suppressing, intensifies.
Joyous recognition
4. It is true that the step to religious affirmation is not achieved per se by virtue of the experimental scientific method, but rather by virtue of elementary philosophical principles such as causality, finality, sufficient reason, which a scientist, as a man, finds himself exercising in his daily contact with life and with the reality he studies. Indeed, the scientist's condition as a sentinel in the modern world, as one who is the first to glimpse the enormous complexity together with the marvellous harmony of reality, makes him a privileged witness of the plausibility of religion, a man capable of showing how the admission of transcendence, far from harming the autonomy and the ends of research, rather stimulates it to continually surpass itself in an experience of self-transcendence which reveals the human mystery.
Then if we consider that today the broadened horizons of research, especially in what concerns the very origins of life, pose troubling questions regarding the right use of scientific conquests, we are not surprised by the increasingly frequent request on the part of scientists for sure moral criteria capable of freeing man from arbitrary willfulness. And who if not God is able to establish a moral order in which the dignity of man, of every man, is firmly cared for and promoted?
Certainly the Christian religion, while it cannot consider certain professions of atheism or agnosticism in the name of science as rational, is equally firm in not accepting affirmations regarding God which arise from tendencies that are not rigorously attentive to rational processes.
Reasons for affirmation
5. At this point it would be very beautiful to make heard in some way the reasons for which not a few scientists positively affirm the existence of God, and to see by what personal relationship with God, with man, and with the great problems and supreme values of life they are sustained. How often silence. meditation, creative imagination, serene detachment from material things, the social significance of discovery and purity of heart are factors which open to them a world of meaning which cannot be disregarded by anyone who proceeds with equal faithfulness and love towards the truth.
May a reference to an Italian scientist, Enrico Medi, a few years deceased, be sufficient. At the International Cathechetical Congress of Rome in 1971 he affirmed: "When I tell a young person: Look, there is a new star, a galaxy, a neutron star 100 million light-years away, yet the protons, electrons; neutrons and mesons which are found there are identical with those which are found in this microphone... Identity excludes probability. That which is identical is not probable... Therefore there is a cause, outside of space, outside of time, the master of being, which made being to be in this way. And this is God...
The being -I am speaking scientifically- which has caused things to be identical at a distance of billions of light-years, exists. And the number of identical particles in the universe is 10 raised to the 85th power... Do we wish then to take in the song of the Galaxies? If I were Francis of Assisi I would say: O Galaxies of the immense heavens, give praise to my Lord, for he is omnipotent and good. O atoms, O protons, O electrons, O bird-songs, O blowing of the leaves and of the air, in the hands of man as a prayer, sing out the hymn which returns to God!" (Acts of the Second International Catechetical Congress. Rome, 20-25 September 1971, Rome, Studium, 1972 pp. 449-450).
____________________________
(Translation and subtitles from L'Osservatore Romano, July 22 1985)
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
1. There exists a rather widespread notion that men of science are generally agnostics and that science leads one away from God. Is there any truth to this opinion?

Probably, thought it's impossible to be sure from the data which came first. In other words, we don't know if science leads one away from God (though it certainly did me personally) or if atheists/agnostics are more likely to become scientists. A 1998 study published in the journal Nature in 1998 indicated that among members of the National Academy of Sciences, only about 7% believe in a personal god. Similar surveys of members of the Royal Society in Britain show similar results: only 3.3% of them declared that they believe strongly in a personal god. (data cited by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, p102)

Dawkins also cites a report by Michael Shermer in his book, How We Believe, which indicates that more highly educated people are less likely to be religious, as are people with an interest in science, and people who self-identify as politically liberal.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Probably, thought it's impossible to be sure from the data which came first. In other words, we don't know if science leads one away from God (though it certainly did me personally) or if atheists/agnostics are more likely to become scientists. A 1998 study published in the journal Nature in 1998 indicated that among members of the National Academy of Sciences, only about 7% believe in a personal god. Similar surveys of members of the Royal Society in Britain show similar results: only 3.3% of them declared that they believe strongly in a personal god. (data cited by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, p102)

Dawkins also cites a report by Michael Shermer in his book, How We Believe, which indicates that more highly educated people are less likely to be religious, as are people with an interest in science, and people who self-identify as politically liberal.


Interesting post to read! For me, I tend to understand what the Pope was saying, in that science and religion have never seemed incompatible to me. Science, if anything, seemed to me as an affirmation of God. By understanding how things work does not cause in me personally to think the world is not of divine origin.

For example, many scientists are deeply religious men. There is a story, (and do you think off-hand I can recall where to find it right now!-but i'll look for it) of Louis Pasteur(I think) who was a devoutly relgious man and felt that science confirmed in him the existence of God.

Maybe one of the biggest problems with some people is their need to put everything in neat little mental boxes. Thus, they put science all by itself or God all by itself and never the twain shall meet.

I had this conversation yesterday, more or less, on creation vs. evolution. I was called a heretic by a pentecostal pastor who was trying to tell me that evolution was from the Devil. He dismissed totally my assertion that the story of creation in Genesis very much follows the pattern of evolution. (read it and see if you agree). I told him, "evolution for me does not dis-prove in the creation of the world by God. Rather it just indicates the manner in which He may have chosen to create the universe."
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
Yeah, I recall reading that of Pasteur. Several other of the great 19th century scientists also took it pretty seriously. Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell, for instance, arguably the best experimentalist and theoretician respectively of the 19th century, were devout Christians to the end of their days. There seems to be a good less of that these days though.

I'd agree that there's no necessary conflict between science and religion, as long as they respect each other's turf. But they don't, as that pentecostal pastor demonstrated. He was trying to make empirical statements about the world based on a literal reading of a tired old argument from authority, and along the way almost certainly failing to understand what the theory of evolution's really about. Science itself has nothing to say about the existence or otherwise of any god or gods, beyond the trivially obvious remark that what we currently understand of how the cosmos works provides no means for such a being to exist. In particular, there's nothing in the theory of evolution that precludes the possibility of a deity that chose that particular method for making things happen. But there's a strident band of atheists that carries it further and declares a deity to be impossible, a position I find arrogant and untenable. Even Richard Dawkins, who's often viewed as their point man, called the crucial chapter in The God Delusion not "Why There Is No God," but "Why There Is Almost Certainly No God." Even he's not betting the farm on it.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
declares a deity to be impossible, a position I find arrogant and untenable. Even Richard Dawkins, who's often viewed as their point man, called the crucial chapter in The God Delusion not "Why There Is No God," but "Why There Is Almost Certainly No God." Even he's not betting the farm on it.


That is what I am talking about. Thinking in little boxes that seperates the two when they compliment one another. I might say the same towards science, to stay off the "turf" of the Church. But on the other hand, I don't see science as a threat to the Scriptures. Instead, I see literalism the great threat to the Scriptures. Perhaps the biggest problem for me as a Catholic is trying to understand why my protestant friends would literally interpret a collection of books on the faith? When did the Bible ever proclaim itself a science text?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
Sounds like we'd agree on a good deal more than I'd have expected when you first showed up here. It also sounds like you've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong's books. If you haven't, let me be the first to recommend them to you. He's come to many of the same conclusions you have, especially as regards the dangers of Biblical literalism. A bit off topic here, but my considered opinion is that taking any scripture literally, as fundamentalists of all stripes--Jews, Christians, and Muslims--do, is one of the greatest contemporary dangers to the peace and security of us all.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Sounds like we'd agree on a good deal more than I'd have expected when you first showed up here. It also sounds like you've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong's books. If you haven't, let me be the first to recommend them to you. He's come to many of the same conclusions you have, especially as regards the dangers of Biblical literalism. A bit off topic here, but my considered opinion is that taking any scripture literally, as fundamentalists of all stripes--Jews, Christians, and Muslims--do, is one of the greatest contemporary dangers to the peace and security of us all.

The belief that science and religion are compatible is not from Spong, he merely eleborated on these things. There I would have to disagree with you, I'm afraid. I have read several of Bp. Spong's books. I am afraid I take the traditionalist viewpoint towards him as being in severe heresy. When it comes to dogmas of the Church, I am very traditional-Resurrection, Immaculate Conception, Virgin Birth, etc.,etc. I also believe the Bible is inspired by God. some of these things dear Spong has already dismissed.

But to the topic, you see that even our former Pope held to the belief that each discipline inspires the other and complements one another.

Catholic theology has never taken the Bible as a literal book of history or science. We have always regarded it as the story of God's relationship with His people. Some parts of it are true, some metaphoric.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
Interesting discussion...

I agree with both of you that religion and science are not incompatible, as long as they are understood as being different things. Philosophy appears to me as being a good middle-ground for both (science and religion) to discuss and evolve together.

I personally find myself in an odd mix between both worlds. I was raised as a catholic but unlike Sanctus, do not have faith in catholic scriptures and dogmas (I'm not using dogma in a negative sense... my father is deeply religious and he is the person I respect the most...)
I have a deep and unquenchable thirst for spirituality but simply cannot contain myself in a rigid religious format such as catholic Christianity.

On the other hand, I also have the utmost respect for science because it broadens my concrete knowledge and understanding of the world... But I have a hard time limiting myself to science in order to understand the world... I find that science answers many "how"s but few significant and truly meaningful "why"s... This is why I'm always projecting my mind beyond common rational thought and deep into the realm of spirituality and esotericism and all that Dexter will call "mystical nonsense"... (example: astrology...). However, I remain extremely cautious in doing so because this mystic world is full of traps and pitfalls. I must also insist that in doing so I am always trying to reconciliate my rational mind with my imagination. (I already discussed astrology with Dexter and while he completely disagrees with me on the subject, I'm sure he can say I'm not a complete fool... only a bit I guess...) :)

Both science and religion can fall into excess. Religion, while not being bad in itself, has been behind so much hatred and abominable acts I need not speak about it. Science, on the other hand is on a wild and sometimes brutal pursuit for knowledge while failing to make us live as better human beings. In other words, I believe we as humans are failing miserably into integrating wisely and positively our new scientific knowledge.
 
Last edited:

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
and abominable acts I need not speak about it. Science, on the other hand is on a wild and sometimes brutal pursuit for knowledge while failing to make us live as better human beings. In other words, I believe we as humans are failing miserably into integrating wisely and positively our new scientific knowledge.


I do not disagree with you in that respect, not at all. I wonder though, if it would be more accurate not to BLAME the church, or Catholicism, but more specifically SOME OF THE PEOPLE in the Church for the excesses you mention. the problem here is confusing the man with the organization. For the man is part of the organization, to what extent does the organization become culpable in the behaviour or actions of the man? I mean, The doctrines of the Church are centuries old, they have remained pretty well unchanged. But, men have used the good name of the Church and/or God to justify any number of abuses.

Science is an exploration into the unknown. It of and in itself does not seek to disprove anything except the darkness of lack of knowledge. It does not seek, for example, anything of a religious nature.

That being said, the evolving Church has to tie its findings into its doctrines. Not always an easy process.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
To all involved...

Excellent posts, very well thought out and not terminally self righteous, as I've seen in the past. I could read these types of discussions all day.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
I do not disagree with you in that respect, not at all. I wonder though, if it would be more accurate not to BLAME the church, or Catholicism, but more specifically SOME OF THE PEOPLE in the Church for the excesses you mention. the problem here is confusing the man with the organization. For the man is part of the organization, to what extent does the organization become culpable in the behaviour or actions of the man? I mean, The doctrines of the Church are centuries old, they have remained pretty well unchanged. But, men have used the good name of the Church and/or God to justify any number of abuses.

Science is an exploration into the unknown. It of and in itself does not seek to disprove anything except the darkness of lack of knowledge. It does not seek, for example, anything of a religious nature.

That being said, the evolving Church has to tie its findings into its doctrines. Not always an easy process.

Sanctus,

I agree with you. I should have expressed myself more clearly. I don't think religion and science are bad in themselves. I actually think both are good in themselves. They both serve an essential purpose.

You are right, the actions of human beings are to blame much before religion and science...
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
1...I take the traditionalist viewpoint towards him as being in severe heresy. When it comes to dogmas of the Church, I am very traditional-Resurrection, Immaculate Conception, Virgin Birth, etc.,etc. I also believe the Bible is inspired by God.
Well, there's one of the points where we part company. I don't believe any of that. Everything I understand about how the cosmos works entirely precludes ideas like a virgin birth and bodily resurrection. I'm not so arrogant as to say you're entirely wrong and what you believe in is impossible (though I freely confess to being strongly tempted...), I'll just say instead that there's no reliable evidence that such things have ever happened, so I see no good reason to believe in them.

And about Bishop Spong in particular, I don't accept everything he's written either, and I'd immediately agree that from a traditionalist Catholic perspective he's clearly a serious heretic, but that's one of the crucial differences between the scientific and religious perspectives. Science welcomes and celebrates heretics if they can make their case with evidence and logic, religion simply condemns them. Science is self-correcting, religion never changes its mind. And that is the fundamental reason why I chose the scientific over the religious view a long time ago.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Well, there's one of the points where we part company. I don't believe any of that. Everything I understand about how the cosmos works entirely precludes ideas like a virgin birth and bodily resurrection. I'm not so arrogant as to say you're entirely wrong and what you believe in is impossible (though I freely confess to being strongly tempted...), I'll just say instead that there's no reliable evidence that such things have ever happened, so I see no good reason to believe in them.

.

I understand your point of view. I really do. I struggled with these concepts myself once. In my late teens...early twenties I was an avowed "atheist". I used to write scatching articles on the Church and God in magazines, newspapers and one of my first books.

What changed for me was the reality that if I do accept the power of God as being beyond the scope of understanding, than some things I just had to take on faith. In other words, during my period of re-conversion back into the Church(for we were raised in our household very much in the Church) I realized that God was not required to be necessarily understood by me. So that, for example, the Virgin Birth which defies logic must in and of itself be logical if caused by God.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
.

And about Bishop Spong in particular, I don't accept everything he's written either, and I'd immediately agree that from a traditionalist Catholic perspective he's clearly a serious heretic, but that's one of the crucial differences between the scientific and religious perspectives. Science welcomes and celebrates heretics if they can make their case with evidence and logic, religion simply condemns them. Science is self-correcting, religion never changes its mind. And that is the fundamental reason why I chose the scientific over the religious view a long time ago.


I think the Church is seen to condemn them, but I am not certain if this is an accurate portrayal. It would probably be more accurate to state that the Church seeks to correct them. The Church considers the deposit of faith-the doctrines if you will-as being from God. Puts us a bit in a catch-22 situation. If we teach that God has given us a standard to live by, we are almost forced to maintain that standard since our belief in God creates in us the inability to change Him. In other words, if God is the master of the faith, our task is to conform ourselves to what we believe is His revelations on the faith.

One thing I admire greatly about scientists in general is their inability to not question things. It is a great quality to be able to want to figure out why things work.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Sanctus,

I agree with you. I should have expressed myself more clearly. I don't think religion and science are bad in themselves. I actually think both are good in themselves. They both serve an essential purpose.

You are right, the actions of human beings are to blame much before religion and science...


Speaking of religion, one of the reasons I returned to the Catholic faith was my dismay with pentecostal or protestant fundamentalist attitudes and teachings.I have a very low tolerance for religion that is not mixed with compassion. Though we read words on this internet and assume things about people, in "real life" I assure you i am not as dogmatic as I may have appeared. I believe in the Catholic faith and accept it's teachings without reservation, but faith without works is empty and false.

The reality is, many, many fundamentalist preachers hurt the people they should be serving. Instead of trying to feed the hungry, for example, they ramble on about "end-times" and "prosperity". Have you heard of this thing known as the "prosperity Gospel"? It is almost unique in being an American invention of pentecostal fundamentalists. It is, in essence, this BS about a good Christian should be rich through his or her faith, followed of course by the nonsense about the ability to heal one-self if one has faith. (not that I discredit miracles of healing-but I suspect such miracles are not the norm).

Some years ago in my first parish, a man came to Mass with his wife one Sunday fresh from one of these oddball pentecostal churches. He was very, very wounded spiritually and emotionally by these wing-nuts. See, Gary had a disability that required him to use a cane and/or a walker to get around. This "born-again" cult had done severe damage to his psyche by rambling on about how he wasn't healed because he was full of sin. It appalled me at the time, and still does.

It took me a hell of a long time to get him somewhat ok with his disability so as not to see it as some sort of punishment from God.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
. And that is the fundamental reason why I chose the scientific over the religious view a long time ago.



Science and religion, which have so much in common, often seem to be at "war" with one another these days. For many science has become their religion while others try to conform science to their religion. Both "heartless science" and "mindless religion" miss truths about the nature of our existence in the universe. Naturally each side is quick to point out the "errors and flaws" that are "obvious" in the other's position.
But the truth is the two points of view are probably closer than we would like to admit.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
"A legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist. Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
"Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but both look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect."
- Freeman Dyson
"Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world, a world in which both can flourish…We need each other to be what we must be, what we are called to be."
- Pope John Paul II
"When religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic."
- Thomas Szasz
"Science is an effort to understand the creation. Biblical religion involves our relation to the Creator. Since we can learn about the Creator from his creation, religion can learn from science."
- Paul H. Carr
"He who has Art and Science also has religion, But those who do not have them better have Religion."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"There is more RELIGION in men's SCIENCE than there is SCIENCE in their RELIGION."
- Henry David Thoreau ("A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers")
"Science makes major contributions to minor needs. Religion, however small its successes, is at least at work on the things that matter most."
- Oliver Wendell Holmes
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
"A legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist. Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein

Out of context and thus a trifle misleading, as it suggests he meant the same thing by religion that you do. He wouldn't have agreed with you for a second. Read what he really thought:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/einsci.htm
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Out of context and thus a trifle misleading, as it suggests he meant the same thing by religion that you do. He wouldn't have agreed with you for a second. Read what he really thought:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/einsci.htm


Thank you for the clarification. Perhaps this also can illustrate to you how annoying it is for me personally when people outside the Church/faith pull Scripture verses out of the Bible to prove their points. Equally misleading and equally out of context!
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
eavens, give praise to my Lord, for he is omnipotent and good. O atoms, O protons, O electrons, O bird-songs, O blowing of the leaves and of the air, in the hands of man as a prayer, sing out the hymn which returns to God!" (Acts of the Second International Catechetical Congress. Rome, 20-25 September 1971, Rome, Studium, 1972 pp. 449-450).
____________________________
(Translation and subtitles from L'Osservatore Romano, July 22 1985)


this is the catholic pope? i thought john paul was dead? so why does it matter what he wrote now that he is dead?