Is There Power to Prayer?

I think not

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Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer.



In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US.

The findings of the decade-long study were due to be published in the American Heart Journal next week, but the journal published the report on its website yesterday as anticipation grew.

The power of intercessory prayer has been studied by doctors for years in America, but with no conclusive results. This $2.4 million study, funded in large part by the John Templeton Foundation, which seeks "insights at the boundary between theology and science", was intended to cast some clear light on the matter.

But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors and a cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said.

Members of three congregations - St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachussetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City - were asked to pray for the patients, who were divided into three groups: those who would be told they were being prayed for, those who would receive prayers but not know, and those who would not be prayed for at all.

The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".

The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications.

The reports authors said they had no explanation for the difference beyond a possibility that the prayers made people anxious about their ability to recover.

"Did the patients think, ’I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"’ said Dr Bethea.

The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project.

Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."

But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."

Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon.

"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said. As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2112892,00.html
 

JonB2004

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RE: Is There Power to Pra

Religion. What a joke. I don't think God or prayer exists.
 

Outta here

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Really JonB?

I'm sure many people feel that way. I don't, but I'm curious - if ya don't mind my asking?

There's a line from a poem by Oriah Mountain dreamer that poses a question:

"I want to know what sustains you - from the inside out - when all else fails....."

So if one doesn't hold a belief in God - in some context or another - how do you nurture your spirit? Or do you also not believe we carry spirit within us either?

Not knocking you, btw. Just interested in this topic, and how others view the subject of spirituality.

edited for typo
 

JonB2004

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RE: Is There Power to Pra

Its alright. I don't feel offended. I don't think we have a spirit.
 

Outta here

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What brought you to this conclusion?

I have to leave to go purchase scads of chocolate now for my kids and I to mow down tomorrow in the inane tradition as set forth by those who understand the divine role chocolate plays in the honouring of spirit, God and all things holy ......lolll...

but I will most certainly be back to read your response.

I'd love to see many opinions weigh in on this subject.
 

JonB2004

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RE: Is There Power to Pra

I don't think you have a spirit. I don't think it goes to heaven when you die. I think you just die and that's the end.
 

selfactivated

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Hi Jon. :)

My name is Tam and I agree with some of the things you say. Im a Pagan

"Paganism is a spiritual way of life which has its roots in the ancient nature religions of the world. It is principally rooted in the old religions of Europe, though some adherents also find great worth in the indigenous beliefs of other countries. Such belief in the sacredness of all things can be found world-wide. Pagans see this as their heritage, and retain the beliefs and values of their ancestors in forms adapted to suit modern life. We celebrate the sanctity of Nature, revering the Divine in all things; the vast, unknowable spirit that runs through the universe, both seen and unseen."

I dont pray either....I call it "intentions" And for many reasons I hated "god" for a very long time. I dont believe much in heaven or hell either but Spirit? Oh my lovely, playful Spirit, I do believe in that. My Spirit is nothing more or less than energy, and energy my friend never dies. Ask any Quantum Physics expert or String Theory Proff. Better yet rent a couple movies ;) "What the bleep do we know" "Indigo" and "What Dreams may come" All very enlightening and truely amusing. Sweetheart noone can change your beliefs but all of us are seekers of trueth so Seek on dear traveler and enjoy the journey! I do :)
 

selfactivated

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As for the power of prayer (intentions) I believe all positive thoughts can and do change how a person feels and heals IF they choose to accept them. I have a neice who just had a baby. She recently became a born again christian, I thought that was fantastic, she had been looking for a place to belong. Anyway, She knows Im Pagan and she asked me NOT to pray for her and her family because my Goddess wasnt her god. My intentions would have done no good under those cercumstances.

On the other hand I had a friend that her hubby was dying of cancer. But my friend wasnt quite ready for him to go yet. So I lit candles and said my intensions and beyond what the docs said he stayed with her 1 more month and she then was able to say goodbye to her bikerbaby in this world. So, in my humble oppinion its all a matter of belief.
 

Sassylassie

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I believe in the Power of Prayer, even if it doesn't change the out come it brings me peace of mind. I'm no Holy Roller but my faith is very strong and very personal to me. My Faith is something I will always be grateful to my parents for. When you start seeing the young dying or your loved ones die, you will want to believe in something--even if it's a divine being.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Okay Zan... I wasn't going to join this thread since you weren't asking me, but then you asked for others to weigh in on this.

I'm with JonB2004, at least insofar as I agree with what he (or she, I suppose; can't tell) said so far. I don't believe there's a god, or gods, so I don't believe there's any point to prayer, I don't believe there's any part of our personalities that survives the death of our bodies, and I do believe that all gods and religions are entirely human inventions that have no reality outside the realm of ideas.

What has brought me to these conclusions? The complete absence of good evidence that anything else might be true, several decades of careful thought and study on these matters after an upbringing in a deeply religious household, and an appreciation of how religions have evolved, lived, and died, with the societies that gave them birth.

What sustains me when all else fails? I'm not sure what that means; I dunno what the "else" is. That kind of begs the question, as it assumes there's something that won't ever fail, and pretty much telegraphs the expected answer. Six years ago I wrote this (cribbed a lot from other thinkers) in a letter to my mother, who lamentably is no longer with us so I'm not breaching any confidences by posting it here:

Religious opinions about humanity and our place in the world depend on concepts that have no reality outside the mind, and I find most of them absurd. Religious beliefs are atavistic survivors from an earlier stage of our mental evolution. As our mental capacity expanded over the period of our evolution, we imagined more and more complex realities and populated them with the gods, demons, and spirits of conventional religion. Religiously-based morality and ethics are rationalizations after the fact for the existing social conditions. To the extent that they converge across cultures and times, they simply reflect universally true facts about human social conditions and human nature. Life has whatever meaning we give it, and that meaning is to be found only in terms of our connections with other people and what we can do with and for each other. That’s all there is.
 

selfactivated

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gopher said:
Prayer works? OK, do me a favor and pray that I will soon have a WEALTHY WIFE! :D

Pffffft right after I find the perfect companion! :p

Sassy? Im so glad you found faith from your parents. As a parent Im quite proud of my youngest daughter, she graduates next month and after the summer she's going on to do mission work. Im going to hell but at least she has a strong faith in something. I personally believe that if we have a reverence for a Sorce and we KNOW that we all conect within that sorce then the world will become the heaven we all are seeking. *hopping off her soapbox* ;)
 

Sassylassie

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Selfactivated, good for your daughter. It's not that I believe in "God" but I believe in something greater a higher existance.

When my Grand Mother died the strangest things happened, she was terrified to die and a few days before she died there was a picture of her on the night stand and one day I looked at it and over her left shoulder was a picture of her mother as clear as a bell (she's been dead 40 years). So I took the picture and asked my father if he saw anything odd, he saw My Great Grand Mother's image also. A few other people looked and they to saw it. On the day she died I looked at the picture and there was the face of my Great Grand Father (dead 20 years) it was the freakest thing I've ever seen and others saw their images as well. I was holding her hand and feeling for a pulse when all of a sudden there was a large rush of wind and huge bang and she was gone her pulse stopped. I looked at the window where the noise came from (the window was closed) and I saw something glide throught the glass. There were five people in the room at the time every one else heard the wind and the bang but I was the only one to see the image glide throught the window. I truely believe that her parents were sent to help her let go, and the image I saw that day was her soul departing. I don't care what anyone else believes I know what I saw.
 

selfactivated

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you are so blessed Sassy :) Ive had simular experiences when my mom died, on 911, during the last days of John Paul II I call it being empathetic or being sensitive or tuned in.....Whatever the label. :) I digress. It does my heart well to hear about your experience :)
 

I think not

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When I was 6 years old, I had a dream, my grandmother and I were playing in a park, I remember her and I were having a great time, picnic, swings, hide and seek and so forth, and what seemed to be the end of the day, she kissed me on my forehead and told me she has to go. I asked her not to go and she replied, I'm sorry, but I will be with you always. The next morning we got a call that she had died in her sleep. I don't ever recall dreaming about her until that night.

There are many explanations that can be given, it was just a dream, I remember it incorrectly or that I even dreamt about it after she had died and remember the sequence differently.

I choose to believe she was saying goodbye to me. That is what a belief is all about, a choice, and you do not require evidence to make a choice.
 

Sassylassie

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I agree ITN. When I was a child (it happend 4 times) I would see a hearse in the drive way and I'd say Dad theres a hearse in the Drive Way and he'd give me a funny look with in minutes we'd get a phone call that someone had died. I never connected the two until I was an adult. I've never seen a hearse as an adult but now I wake up hearing the phone ringing but the phone isn't ringing and sure enough with in minutes I get a phone call telling me someone has died. I guess I'm perceptive.
 

Semperfi_dani

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RE: Is There Power to Pra

I choose to believe she was saying goodbye to me. That is what a belief is all about, a choice, and you do not require evidence to make a choice.

I agree... I do not need evidence to believe in what i believe. I do not need cold hard proof. I don't know what will actually happen when i die, but what i beleive will happen is enough to satisfy me.

I had a similar moment when my grandmother died that suspends all belief. I won't go into details, but it was one of those moments in which my belief was confirmed for me. It defys logic, but such is belief and faith.
 

Curiosity

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Hmmmmm don't know much here....but like the conversation...

I think many people pray to alter events already in motion - events outside of themselves - to change things - and that is why many people are disappointed when what they prayed for didn't turn out as they asked.

I believe in the power of prayer to help me - for without quiet prayer to accept, my life would be empty - however I doubt my prayers would help anyone else. If requested by anyone, I would never hesitate to say a prayer for them or their loved one, and I don't expect to have an answer because I think it doesn't work that way.
 

Sassylassie

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Semperfi, the thing about "Faith" is if you don't have any you can never understand those of us who do. I'm just glad I have it.