Does oppression takes a backseat to religious freedom

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

I know that bringing this up is going to raise eyebrows and provoke the occasional thoughtless accusation of racism, but I still think it is a topic worth discussing. Before I get started I want to see if we can get around the usual back and forth about Christianity being riddled with problems of its own. I understand the problems with pedophilia in the Catholic church, I acknowledge that Christian extremists like David Coresh and Jim Jones exist and have left suffering and deep questions in their wake. I understand all this, as I am sure you do, but would like to keep the focus on Islam at least for this thread. So if we could have logical discussion without someone proclaiming. “Oh yeah, well Christians did this or the Jews did that!”

The question I want to raise stems from a discussion I heard the other day in regard to Sharia law in Canada, but moreover the fact that women are being adorned in Burka’s. Now I understand religious freedom and if you want to bow down to a head of cabbage I believe that is your right, but as a Canadian I find the very symbol of the burka oppressive and extremely sexist.

The argument of course is that the woman wearing the burka is acceptant of the traditional garb and therefore I as a Canadian should accept this as a cultural issue and show some sensitivity. Problem is folks, I can’t. We live in a Country that claims to champion individual rights. So why does freedom of religion make oppression okay?

To my knowledge in the Islamic world a woman’s worth does not match that of a man. She can be punished for exposing a leg, murdered for having sex out of wedlock (including rape) Many women in the Islamic world are deprived education and the right to vote. While that might be okay over there I hardly want it imported here.

So what do you say folks, am I out of line thinking that Islam must modernize its thinking and should not be allowed to import oppression into our borders? I know the French took some real heat on this issue, but I’m interested in hearing what people think on both sides of this issue.

Cheers
M

 

[I think not]

We live in a Country that claims to champion individual rights.

Canada doesn't "champion" individual rights, group rights take precedence over the individual. Rights obtained by groups only exist within that group, an indiviudal does not and cannot have those rights. I believe that is part of the problem you are alluding to.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: Does oppression takes

I wouldn't worry to much about the sandpeople exporting thier religion over here RCS it's when a religion drops bombs on you and exports war that you should get pissed off. If you find the burka offensive and sexist, stop wearing it.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

There are a fair number of women in Canada that wear the Burka by choice. Many see it as a form of feminism; they consider that by wearing the Burka, they take away a good portion of the sexist attitude that women with certain apperances have. ie. pretty women get treated better than less pretty ones.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

We live in a Country that claims to champion individual rights.

Canada doesn't "champion" individual rights, group rights take precedence over the individual. Rights obtained by groups only exist within that group, an indiviudal does not and cannot have those rights. I believe that is part of the problem you are alluding to.

LOL You sound like a Liberal politician trying to explain adscam to the Gomery inquiry.

I think your agreeing with me sort of. I think?

Best sort of kind of...
M

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Re: RE: Does oppression takes

I wouldn't worry to much about the sandpeople exporting thier religion over here RCS it's when a religion drops bombs on you and exports war that you should get pissed off. If you find the burka offensive and sexist, stop wearing it.

Darkbeaver why stay silent when you can speak up and remove all doubt?

M

 

[Prairie_Ally]

RE: Does oppression takes

Many of the women who wear burkas are immigrant women who have worn them all their life. They are raised with the mentality that burkas are important as conveyers of respect for their religion.

Each generation that stays in Canada there is less and less burkas or hajibs worn by women.

I do find burkas as representing male domination and female submissiveness though. People do react differently to women who do wear burkas and hajibs. Women who wear them are seen as doormats, and almost as female slaves. I don't respect women who wear them but that's only because I come from a culture that sees them as oppressive to women, as representing female inequality. However, in the Islamic faith, it is seen as a sign of servitude to God.

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: Does oppression takes

I wouldn't worry to much about the sandpeople exporting thier religion over here RCS it's when a religion drops bombs on you and exports war that you should get pissed off. If you find the burka offensive and sexist, stop wearing it.

Darkbeaver why stay silent when you can speak up and remove all doubt?

M

Removing the doubt in your mind isn't hard is it RCS you take orders don't you?

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: Does oppression takes

I wouldn't worry to much about the sandpeople exporting thier religion over here RCS it's when a religion drops bombs on you and exports war that you should get pissed off. If you find the burka offensive and sexist, stop wearing it.

Darkbeaver why stay silent when you can speak up and remove all doubt?

M

Removing the doubt in your mind isn't hard is it RCS you take orders don't you? They remove all doubt don't they, your responce to me has been programmed into you by the great doubt removers.

 

[Outta here]

well Alley, I think you may have hit on an important point there....change does not happen overnight... I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect people to leave an entire lifetime of cultural beliefs at the door when they enter Canada. But exposure of new ideals to their young... now there's where we're going to see something good happen.... our youth are pretty smart cookies - many kids have had an incredible opportunity that many of us haven't - they've been able to observe the best, worst, most ridiculous and most sublime elements of many many cultures. Theirs is a veritible buffet of choices to choose from what they will believe and what they will live. And they are choosing. If we can just keep this planet alive long enough to give our kids a chance to run it, I think we could be lucky enough to see what change on a global scale will look like. We've left them little choice, and they're paying attention...

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Re: RE: Does oppression takes

Removing the doubt in your mind isn't hard is it RCS you take orders don't you? They remove all doubt don't they, your responce to me has been programmed into you by the great doubt removers.

Did you get that telepathically from beyond or did you actually pull it out of the great vacuum between tinfoil and skull?

DB Perhaps it's time to get a new gerbal for your wheel.
Cheers
M

 

[FiveParadox]

I think that one must recognize that, in Canada at least, most Muslims choose to employ a more modern interpretation of the religion than some nations abroad. According to certain documentaries I have seen on the topic (I think it may have been The Passionate Eye), many women who choose to wear the burka see it as taking their body and their image into their own hands; it seems to be somewhat empowering in some adults' opinions, in the context of Canada, at least.

However, it should be noted that the use of the burka is quite rare among younger Muslims in Canada; I would say that it is safe to argue that within one or two generations in Canada, the burka ceases to be used (assuming that the person chooses to continue to use the burka in Canada at any point, which is quite often no longer the case). It should, too, be noted that the Qur'an demands that women be treated with respect and, as such, many Islamic associations in Canada condemn the constant mistreatment of women abroad in the context of the Islamic religion.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

FIVEPARADOX: I hope you are right about it being phased out in a generation or two. I am not so confident.

Cheers
M[/b]

 

[FiveParadox]

Retired_Can_Soldier, I am quite confident of this; despite the fact that my high school is home to several hundred Muslims, I would say probably less than a dozen choose to wear the burka. It's not quite as prominent as some might believe.

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: Does oppression takes

Removing the doubt in your mind isn't hard is it RCS you take orders don't you? They remove all doubt don't they, your responce to me has been programmed into you by the great doubt removers.

Did you get that telepathically from beyond or did you actually pull it out of the great vacuum between tinfoil and skull?

DB Perhaps it's time to get a new gerbal for your wheel.
Cheers
M

The tinfoil hat is worn close to the skull thus preventing a vaccuous
space, properly a vaccumn needs empty space such as is found between your ears eh. :lol:

 

[Lineman]

I don't think we should chose to see Burka's any differently than other visble symbols in other religions and cultures. Mennonites have always dressed in their own manner. Turbans are a common site. The Amish are similar to the Mennonites. It is because they are visible that we notice. Christian fundamentalists view the world much differently than others but there is nothing visible to their beliefs. We may not agree with their own versions of relgion but we tolerate.
As for being oppressive to women some of the religions mentioned above do suppress the equalities we've come to expect for women in all western societies. Just because they have the freedom to not wear the Burka doesn't mean they shouldn't. The difference I believe is western societies will only allow these beliefs to a certain point. We all have a system of rights which prevents Taliban-like slavery, abuse, and murder to occur.
Tin foil hats on the other hand are a sure sign of something suspicious. They see and know all...as they always keep telling us..

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Does oppression takes

I wouldn't worry to much about the sandpeople exporting thier religion over here RCS it's when a religion drops bombs on you and exports war that you should get pissed off. If you find the burka offensive and sexist, stop wearing it.

so true... here here...

 

[Sassylassie]

As a female I believe that if a female CHOOSES to wear the Berka that's fine. The optinum word is chooses, not forced or threatened but she CHOOSES to wear one. As an RC I see the elder female members of the Church still wear a Scarf or Hat in keeping with the older rules/tradition of the Church.

 

[nelk]

Reading the Quran should be mandatory before any one attempts to seriously talk about Muslims and their belief.

If after serious study of this quite large book, reflecting /contrasting on your morals and inner value profile and veryfication of the state of your sound mind (or not), you still think this is "just another religion", you will soon enough be shaken out of your pants (likely worse).

Tell them ,you are liberal of some sort, fond of our decadent lifestyles and so tolerant to any crasy idea men/ women can philosophy and postulate as politically correct in our western world.

You are a"deadman walking" in certain lands, and as more and more incidences prove ,your safety can not be taken for granted in parts of the western world.

Follow some other forums from various languages/lands on similar topics.

Are there still peoples out there ,after rethinking the historical developments of the last decades, who are optimistic about the further path these event will take?

It is poignant for human development that the more" advanced" it gets, the more desire to sink to new "deeps" of morals and behavioral decadence.
This kind of thinking is like a venom, inabling a defence so you can fall victim, and this all with a politically correct mindset .

Like drunk fools

For the ones calling this racism, so be it! You have nothing seen yet!

 

[Lineman]

Why is it you feel you must triumph over western culture? Cannot your Islam live peacefully along side others? Is your faith so weak you feel you must challenge anyone who doesn't believe as you do? And yes Islam is just another religion. As with all religions some profess it to be the one and true way to salvation and as with all religions there are those who use it to commit atrocities in the name of their gods. Men have murdered in the name of their god for thousands of years.