Israel Welcomes Evangelical Support—but not an Evangelical Presence

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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From an Evangelical Website based in Israel....

April 10, 2012

For more than a year, I have repeatedly visited the office of the Christian Affairs Department at the Israeli Ministry of Religious Affairs in Jerusalem to seek a clergy visa for Rev. Jeff Hoover. Jeff is a U.S. citizen from Raleigh, North Carolina. Our international congregation in East Jerusalem called Rev. Hoover to come to Jerusalem to serve as an assistant pastor, since I am approaching retirement.

On December 1, 2011, I visited the Christian Affairs Department and spoke with the office’s director to see if there was progress on Rev. Hoover's application. The official in charge told me openly that his office can't give a recommendation for a clergy visa for Rev. Hoover because, he stated, "the State of Israel does not recognize the Baptist Church." The statement surprised me, but not because our attempts to get Rev. Hoover a visa failed. We had many similar setbacks in the past, but this was the first time a lack of recognition was cited as the reason. In the past, the officials did not give us a reason for denying visas, and after a few months of trying, we just gave up. “Not recognized” means that no Evangelical church in Israel is officially recognized because they have not acquired the privilege of "Status Quo." This privilege was granted during the Ottoman period to historic denominations, and more recently, to the Anglican and the Lutheran churches.

Israel’s Ministry of Religious Affairs may have the right to deny a Christian clergyperson a visa to enter Israel. But why should it take a year and a half before the applicant learns that his or her church is not recognized? In June, while in Israel, Rev. Hoover was told that if he left Israel, the officials would process his visa application. He returned to the U.S. and after six months, he was told that his application papers which he first submitted in 2010 were lost. He submitted new forms, but that didn't help. In the last eight months, Rev. Hoover and I both--he from the US and I from Jerusalem--made repeated contacts with officials of the Ministry of Religious Affairs to ask about the status of his visa. All of our efforts came to a halt when I was told, "Baptists are not recognized in the State of Israel."

Whenever it is politically expedient, Israeli authorities close an eye and issue visas to Baptist and other Evangelical clergy. But in general, most Christian ministries in the Holy Land, and particularly Evangelicals, confront huge obstacles when seeking visas for Western pastors or volunteers who wish to help them in their respective churches, schools and other ministries. These Israeli policies encumber the ministries of the various Christian denominations and add pain and frustration to the Christian minorities that are facing the threat of extinction in the birthplace of their faith.

In international forums, Israeli officials don’t miss an opportunity to state that Israel practices religious freedom and equality. Members of my church, East Jerusalem Baptist Church, wonder how Israeli officials define freedom of religion. It is ironic that the Western Evangelical churches that often give the greatest political, economic and moral support to the State of Israel are the churches that are the least privileged under Israeli rule.
 

In Between Man

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It's unfortunate that an evangelical presence isn't more welcome in Israel, but I personally don't see it as a major issue. For the reasons that:

Israel is still the safest place in the ME for Christians
being spit on pales in comparison to being stoned by Jews, (1st century, Stephen)
Christianity is growing all over the world and Israel is no exception
supporting Israel is ultimately the right thing to do regardless

The Jews who oppose an evangelical presence are the same Jews who didn't believe Jesus when he walked Israel. They're Pharisees (lovers of religion itself instead of God). Fortunately, things will change. Jews and Christians are destined to stand arm in arm in the Holy Land will all traces of enmity behind us. That's a God-given promise. Give it time...

Christian Zionists Dance in Israel - YouTube

(Petros, please take note of the Christians and Jews openly dancing together at 4:55 in)
 

damngrumpy

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We talk about the intolerance of the Muslims toward others and then when its time to address
the Jewish position we state its not surprising and it shouldn't be a big deal and look the Jews
and Christians are dancing together in the street. These are distractions designed to have us
metaphorically look the other way.
Does this meas look those people are crazy, we think like them but we're not?
How many here have heard of Christians for Zion? At first glance it sounds pretty good
Christians for Zion. Once you peer through the looking glass it won't look so positive and here's
why.

Christians for Zion believe we are living in the end times Soon the State of Israel will find itself
in conflict with Arab neighbors and the others like America, Russia and China will join in.
The world will be destroyed and those who are not saved will perish, the Jews the Americans the
Muslims, the Chinese and who ever. Jesus will raise the believers and the saved up onto a cloud.
After the rapture as it were Christ will fix all the environmental problems and the damage from the
nukes and we will all sing kumbaya together round the campfire.
This demonstrates there is a level of insanity espoused by all religions like they are the only ones
going to heaven. I suggest they start throwing that stuff around (nukes) and they will be just as
dead as I will be cloud or not cloud.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Israel is still the safest place in the ME for Christians
being spit on pales in comparison to being stoned by Jews, (1st century, Stephen)

The Jews who oppose an evangelical presence are the same Jews who didn't believe Jesus when he walked Israel. They're Pharisees (lovers of religion itself instead of God). Fortunately, things will change.
They still throw stones at Christians. as well as beatings and horking on them.
These ones who oppose evangelicals are the one who are going to be the majority. Everyday that passes there are more and more. So don't expect things to go the way you hope.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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They still throw stones at Christians. as well as beatings and horking on them.
These ones who oppose evangelicals are the one who are going to be the majority. Everyday that passes there are more and more. So don't expect things to go the way you hope.

That's actually where I feel you're wrong. I think the tide is turning the other way. "Messianic Jews" (Christians) are growing in number there, and the bible says that during the Great Tribulation there will be exactly 144,000 Jews proclaiming the gospel in the streets of Israel.

One person I would like to hear from in this thread is Just_The_Facts. He's been to Israel so his opinion would be a good added value to this discussion.

Christians for Zion believe we are living in the end times Soon the State of Israel will find itself in conflict with Arab neighbors

You can't feel that brewing now?

Arab spring > Islamic winter > growing threat of massive ME war...
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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You "THINK the tide is turning" but it's not. Haredi women are spitting out kids by the dozen with the sole purpose of becoming the majority kicking out all other forms of sane Judaism.

Look into it before just going by what you think.

Messianic Jews are not Christians and Christians are not Messianic Jews . You can't be both.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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You "THINK the tide is turning" but it's not.

Time will tell. I of course believe the bible in its entirety, and according to prophecy the Jews and Christians come together to face the anti-christs. It's set in stone.

Messianic Jews are not Christians

Yes they are. They believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. That's all that is required of them to be born-again (real) Christians. They also believe that the NT is just as divinely inspired as the OT. Messianic Jews only PREFER not to be called Christians for the two main reasons of avoiding persecution from the Pharisees, and because they don't want to deny the fact they are still Jews.

Jewish Israelis that are Believers in Jesus Christ! - Israeli News (www.oneforisrael.org) - YouTube
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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It's unfortunate that an evangelical presence isn't more welcome in Israel, but I personally don't see it as a major issue. For the reasons that:

Israel is still the safest place in the ME for Christians
being spit on pales in comparison to being stoned by Jews, (1st century, Stephen)
Christianity is growing all over the world and Israel is no exception
supporting Israel is ultimately the right thing to do regardless

The Jews who oppose an evangelical presence are the same Jews who didn't believe Jesus when he walked Israel. They're Pharisees (lovers of religion itself instead of God). Fortunately, things will change. Jews and Christians are destined to stand arm in arm in the Holy Land will all traces of enmity behind us. That's a God-given promise. Give it time...

Christian Zionists Dance in Israel - YouTube

(Petros, please take note of the Christians and Jews openly dancing together at 4:55 in)

Actually christianity is not growing all over the world Christianism is what you see, and it's not growing in the healthy sense of the word but rather is a rampant epidemic of total ignorance of the power called christ.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Time will tell. I of course believe the bible in its entirety, and according to prophecy the Jews and Christians come together to face the anti-christs. It's set in stone.

Yes they are. They believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for our sins.
But how can you deny demographics? Have you read the Muzzie version of Revelations? They too join Christians in fighting the Dajjal (Anti-Christ)

Do Messianic Jews get Baptised? Until Baptised you aren't Christian.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Yes messianic jews do get baptised. Baptism is the incarnation of the spirit soul into the waters of the body matter. Just a theological point. Carry on sorry for the interruption.
 

darkbeaver

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Then they are Christians.

Every sentient being is christian in the original sense of the word. Christ is the power called mind the rational mind. That was the meaning for ten thousand years prior to the third century AD at which time the ancient mystery schools had been wiped away by what is now called christians.

just another point-----we souls are the dead in matter----we have to die to live again as remembering souls--- the power, christ, is entombed in the material body which is Egypt and Sodom and this earth called hades--- the parting of the red sea (blood) again matter, imparts exodus from Egypt the body----this is rebirth of the rejuvinated soul back the heaven the lake of fire, source of all the little sparks of life called souls. just one more bowl of vitamine green and I may have to retire
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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But how can you deny demographics?

You have to go with what the individual believes in his heart. The bible says that if you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross then you've been born-again. I couldn't deny Messianic Jews are Christians even if I wanted to.

Have you read the Muzzie version of Revelations? They too join Christians in fighting the Dajjal (Anti-Christ)

I've studied this particular topic and I know you're mistaken. The Islamic version of Revelation says that "Muslim Jesus" aka "Jesus the Prophet" (not the Son of God) comes back under the Mahdi, to declare that he never died on the cross, it was all a trick, AND that while he was gone he converted to Islam, AND that after the Mahdi offers Islam to the Jews and Christians those who refuse will be put to the death by "Chief Executioner Jesus". There's nothing in there about "Muslims joining Christians" only Christians being defeated by triumphant Islam.

Until Baptised you aren't Christian.

That's not true either. Baptism is an OUTWARD EXPRESSION of the INWARD change that has ALREADY taken place in your heart. A Christian is a Christian BEFORE he's baptized. (This is why infantile baptism is dangerous; It can deceive people to thinking they are saved when really they are false converts)

Actually christianity is not growing all over the world Christianism is what you see, and it's not growing in the healthy sense of the word but rather is a rampant epidemic of total ignorance of the power called christ.

Whatever DB, we're all praying for you.


Thousands of Muslims Converting to Christianity (Iraq) - YouTube
 
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In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
4,597
46
48
44
49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
Every sentient being is christian in the original sense of the word. Christ is the power called mind the rational mind. That was the meaning for ten thousand years prior to the third century AD at which time the ancient mystery schools had been wiped away by what is now called christians.

just another point-----we souls are the dead in matter----we have to die to live again as remembering souls--- the power, christ, is entombed in the material body which is Egypt and Sodom and this earth called hades--- the parting of the red sea (blood) again matter, imparts exodus from Egypt the body----this is rebirth of the rejuvinated soul back the heaven the lake of fire, source of all the little sparks of life called souls. just one more bowl of vitamine green and I may have to retire

Word salad. Your doctrine is completely foreign to me. Ancient mystery schools?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Word salad. Your philosophy is completely foreign to me. Ancient mystery schools?

Plato Hericlites scores of Egyptians Chaldeans Hindos Creeks practically every civilization and culture knew christ, there never was a time when christ did not exist and there never can be, christ was never exclusively manifested in one man christ is broadcast universally and permanently, you just have to work for your bread