I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Conflicted

#1Feb 6th, 2012

Greetings everyone. I found this forum through a web search. I'm brand new here. I would describe myself as a "believer", but I'd be reluctant to call myself a "Christian." There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

I would welcome an honest, civil discussion of the Bible in a general sense. I'm not as interested in doctrinal views as I am in general issues of faith and interpretation. If you'd be willing to engage in an open dialogue of this nature, please respond with your comments.

Thank you.

lone wolf

+2 / -1

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Be prepared to be set upon by the My way or the Lake of Fire brigade....

Welcome aboard. MOST of us are comfortable enough to question....

Conflicted

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

Be prepared to be set upon by the My way or the Lake of Fire brigade....

Welcome aboard. MOST of us are comfortable enough to question....

Thank you for the warning, lone wolf. I hope you're right.

gerryh

+2 / -1

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Also, be prepared to be told that you are delusional.

Spade

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Also, be prepared to be told that you are delusional.

"Honesty is the best policy."

karrie

#6 Top Rated Post

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

Greetings everyone. I found this forum through a web search. I'm brand new here. I would describe myself as a "believer", but I'd be reluctant to call myself a "Christian." There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

I would welcome an honest, civil discussion of the Bible in a general sense. I'm not as interested in doctrinal views as I am in general issues of faith and interpretation. If you'd be willing to engage in an open dialogue of this nature, please respond with your comments.

Thank you.

I tend to simply say, "I'm spiritual, not religioius." For any zealot at either end of the spectrum, atheist or evangelical Christian, you're likely to be told that you have to either embrace the Bible 100%, or discard it 100%. But for me, life is about seeking that which makes us better people, which helps us understand life, love, the world, and our own journeys, better. And the Bible does contain plenty that can help you do that. Needless to say, I am fully capable of taking it with a grain of salt, taking what helps me and leaving the rest. I think to do so makes one much less 'conflicted' than the rest of the world

Spade

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

I tend to simply say, "I'm spiritual, not religioius." For any zealot at either end of the spectrum, atheist or evangelical Christian, you're likely to be told that you have to either embrace the Bible 100%, or discard it 100%. But for me, life is about seeking that which makes us better people, which helps us understand life, love, the world, and our own journeys, better. And the Bible does contain plenty that can help you do that. Needless to say, I am fully capable of taking it with a grain of salt, taking what helps me and leaving the rest. I think to do so makes one much less 'conflicted' than the rest of the world

As is any other book such as the Qu'ran, Moby Dick, How to Make Friends and Influence People, and The Diviners.

Dexter Sinister

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

Hardly a surprise, it's a very large and complex book. I presume you mean there are things in it you can't reconcile with other things in it, and/or things in it you can't reconcile with other things you believe to be true apart from the Bible. That's a problem only if you expect everything in the book to be true, and there are some here who do.

There are things in the Bible that are good and true and bad and false and just plain silly, exactly what's to be expected from a book written by many different people over many generations long before we'd discovered much about what's really going on and how nature operates. Do what everybody else does, pick the bits you like, that make sense to you, never mind the bits you can't reconcile. A caution though: this is not a Christian forum, and people will tell you exactly what they think. As you identify yourself as a believer, I can guarantee that some of it you're not going to like.

Conflicted

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Hardly a surprise, it's a very large and complex book. I presume you mean there are things in it you can't reconcile with other things in it, and/or things in it you can't reconcile with other things you believe to be true apart from the Bible. That's a problem only if you expect everything in the book to be true, and there are some here who do.

There are things in the Bible that are good and true and bad and false and just plain silly, exactly what's to be expected from a book written by many different people over many generations long before we'd discovered much about what's really going on and how nature operates. Do what everybody else does, pick the bits you like, that make sense to you, never mind the bits you can't reconcile. A caution though: this is not a Christian forum, and people will tell you exactly what they think. As you identify yourself as a believer, I can guarantee that some of it you're not going to like.

Thanks for the replies. At least I know someone is listening. Here's a partial breakdown of what I've concluded thus far in my life:

1. I do believe in a creator. I don't think we are the product of evolution.
2. I do believe there is something extraordinary about the Bible and the message it contains. I believe it contains both literal and figurative dialogue, and this is where I'm most conflicted.
3. I don't believe in a literal Hell, but I do believe in divine justice.

These are conclusions I have arrived at through my own study of the Bible, my life experiences and reflective thoughts. I offer this to begin the conversation.

Cliffy

#10

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

1) possibly a creator caused this all to come into being. That it has anything to do with us is a matter of speculation. When you consider the vastness of the Universe and the millions of planets that might be capable of supporting life, why do you think we are so special that this creator would be interested in us? Personally, I believe Mark Twain when he said "and man created god in his own image."

2) the bible is an extraordinary book. It has dozens of authors, it is full of contradictions, truths, historical inaccuracies, fallacies and down right ridiculous claims which would account for most of your confusion.

3) Hell is here on Earth in this lifetime. Hell is when you are not happy and are confused. There is only one divine law at work in the Universe, IMHO, and that is "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - the law of karma. Whatever you put out into the world is what you get back, or do unto others/love thy neighbour as thyself.

You will never get spiritual nourishment from a book, a whole library of books or from any self appointed "teacher" or guru. Any teacher worthy of your attention is one that will tell you to go away and find the truth on your own. Because it is in your life experiences that the truth will be revealed to you. And you will get more truth out of watching The Matrix than you ever will reading the bible. Personal revelation does not require adherence to any religious dogma or book or sect.

Dexter Sinister

#11

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

1. I do believe in a creator. I don't think we are the product of evolution.

There's nothing necessarily irreconcilable in the view that a creator also created the process of evolution in order to create us, unless you insist on a literal view of the Genesis story. But it's a long way from that deistic view to the theistic view that the creator is a personal deity involved in our daily lives. In fact you can't get from the former to the latter without having to assume a whole lot of other things on the basis of no evidence at all. And somebody should tell you, and it might as well be me, that evolution is a fact, we ARE a product of evolution, the evidence is so overwhelming that no other informed conclusion is possible.

damngrumpy

#12

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Be prepared to be further conflicted some are fervent born again believers and washed in
the blood. Others are spiritual, some are skeptical and some are non believers. Then there
are those who if pushed might deny their own existence.
Put on your mental sandals and take a chance welcome aboard

Dexter Sinister

#13

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

These are conclusions I have arrived at through my own study of the Bible, my life experiences and reflective thoughts. I offer this to begin the conversation.

I think you'll be well repaid by adding to that list. Read about the Bible too, not just the Bible itself, there's lots of material around, textual analysis, historical studies, critical reviews, etc. Some names to look for: Bart Ehrman, John Shelby Spong, Tom Harpur, Jonathon Kirsch, Elaine Pagels. There's also a very good two volume set called Asimov's Guide to the Bible, by Isaac Asimov, long out of print now but you might be able to find it at a major library or a second hand book shop. It provides the historical, cultural, and geographic context for all of it.

spaminator

#14

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

Greetings everyone. I found this forum through a web search. I'm brand new here. I would describe myself as a "believer", but I'd be reluctant to call myself a "Christian." There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

I would welcome an honest, civil discussion of the Bible in a general sense. I'm not as interested in doctrinal views as I am in general issues of faith and interpretation. If you'd be willing to engage in an open dialogue of this nature, please respond with your comments.

Thank you.

i'm a believer. i believe that the bible might be true.

JLM

#15

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

Greetings everyone. I found this forum through a web search. I'm brand new here. I would describe myself as a "believer", but I'd be reluctant to call myself a "Christian." There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

I would welcome an honest, civil discussion of the Bible in a general sense. I'm not as interested in doctrinal views as I am in general issues of faith and interpretation. If you'd be willing to engage in an open dialogue of this nature, please respond with your comments.

Thank you.

Parts of the Bible make for good reading, but I don't think "believing" or "not believing" is applicable. Things happen sometimes that the witnesses aren't sophisticated enough to really relate it as it actually happened. Maybe some of it was written in a way that uneducated people could understand. Some it maybe be allegory or metaphors. So to take a sentence or verse and ram it down someones throat is just plain silly. Were David and Goliath actual men who got into battle as described or was David just a symbol for humble, meek, patient and intelligent and Goliath just a symbol for cruel, formidable and stupid?

Conflicted

#16

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Well, I've been through several stages in my life. I spent a few years in a protestant church, both as a child and as an adult. I've run the gamut from being a zealous evangelical to an extremely bitter atheist. At this point in my life, I'm just a conflicted believer.

I can't prove that God even exists. No one can. It's a faith thing. However, when I look at the precision of the universe and the splendor of nature, I see the signature of a creator. That may not be enough for some of you, but it is for me.

I have mixed feelings about evolution. A caterpillar evolves into a butterfly. Is that a microcosm of evolution? Or a grand display of a creator's whim? I simply don't know.

In spite of its contradictions, mysteries and imaginative constructs, I find the Bible to be a profoundly fascinating exposition. I mentioned previously that I don't believe in a literal hell. My intellect will not allow me to reconcile a literal hell with Christianity. Thus, just one example of my "conflicted" positions.

I have no agenda. My intent is to let this conversation take its own course, so I'll just leave it there for the moment.

karrie

#17

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I have mixed feelings about evolution. A caterpillar evolves into a butterfly. Is that a microcosm of evolution? Or a grand display of a creator's whim? I simply don't know.

No. Evolution does not refer to the change undertaken by a single organism in its lifetime. That is called metamorphosis.

Evolution refers to the genetic changes that happen to entire populations over centuries.

JLM

#18

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I can't prove that God even exists. No one can. It's a faith thing. However, when I look at the precision of the universe and the splendor of nature, I see the signature of a creator. That may not be enough for some of you, but it is for me.

.

THAT, I fully agree with!

lone wolf

#19

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I can't prove that God even exists. No one can. It's a faith thing. However, when I look at the precision of the universe and the splendor of nature, I see the signature of a creator. That may not be enough for some of you, but it is for me.

Works for me.... Keep it simple.

MHz

#20

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

Evolution refers to the genetic changes that happen to entire populations over centuries.

I would have classified that as adaptation, one species adapting to minor changes to their habitat. Evolution would be saying there is 'one flesh' and all the ones in the list below came from 'one source' rather than each 'type of flesh' adapted side-by-side with their environment.

1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.

If Genesis 1 say the other flesh was made 'after it's kind' then the 4 beasts around the throne in Re:4 could be the original source and that would support all flesh coming from one, even to the point that 'primates' are the ones who have the 'face of a man' in that description. The Bible allows for adaption and changes like that, it does nor allow for one, two, and three toed flesh to interact and produce reproducing off-spring.

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

1. I do believe in a creator. I don't think we are the product of evolution.
2. I do believe there is something extraordinary about the Bible and the message it contains. I believe it contains both literal and figurative dialogue, and this is where I'm most conflicted.
3. I don't believe in a literal Hell, but I do believe in divine justice.

1. already done
2. That might be shown by the two history lessons in Genesis 1 and 2. One covers the path the 'dust' part of us and the other references the path the breath of life took for us to become a living being.
The 'message' the Bible contains can be a long or short story. The short one means only considering what the words in Genesis 1,2 and 3 say and blend them in with the words in Revelation 20, 21, and 22 say. Everything else fits 'somewhere in between' and the fastest way to sort it out is to decide what passages apply to the bruises in Genesis 3:15. That cuts the 'chore' in half and the task is made easier because the bruise to the heel has prophecy and fulfillment in the Bible. The bruise to Satan's head is mostly prophecy.
3.The ones sent there are the ones dressed for war on the day He returns, Satan's idea so they spent their time in hell reminding him that he was also deceiving himself most of all. Those same men end up alive in the new earth but their path is also the 'roughest one' available'.

Fortunately the majority view here doesn't make it the 'most accurate one'.

s_lone

#21

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I have no agenda. My intent is to let this conversation take its own course, so I'll just leave it there for the moment.

Well here is a question that ought to get the ball rolling.

Do you think Jesus was an ordinary man or truly ''the Son of God'' and that he died and came back to life three days later?

It's something (Christ's divinity) I took for granted as a child, as I'm sure many others have, but now that I can think on my own, I would betray my intellect not to question the validity of this.

I was baptized and raised as a catholic and I consider myself a Christian in the sense that I am moved and inspired by Jesus's philosophy of love, charity and solidarity, something which our world greatly needs. On the other hand, my unapologetic doubts about his divinity would put me in the non-chrisitian territory. And I don't see any good reason to deny the positive messages present in other religions as well. How about you?

As for science, I don't see any good reasons to deny such evidences as evolution. But that doesn't make me an atheist. I consider myself more of a pantheist. I don't see science as a one way ticket to naturalistic materialism but rather as an effective tool to help us understand how the world works. It's an attempt at grasping objective reality and a great way to help us manipulate this reality through technology. But science can't tell us how or to what end we ought to manipulate the world we live in. Science's language is descriptive, not evaluative. And that is why we need some form of spirituality to guide us. There's nothing incompatible between spirituality and science.

Last edited by s_lone; Feb 6th, 2012 at 05:33 PM..

MHz

#22

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by s_lone

There's nothing incompatible between spirituality and science.

There is such a thing as 'bang for the $buck$' and a 'customer' to either place shout get the best deal around, lets call that 'the truth as known at the time of the question'. Religion and the understanding about the knowledge about God that is contained in the Bible is a 3 week course (eat-work-sleep) that is needed once a person has reached an age where his thinking is considered to be 'critical but flexible'. From that point on it should be a matter of using the same process should more questions come up (as should be the case if you talk about it at all once those few weeks are over) Today it is more of a money making machine that requires all members donate much time and money over their lifetime, and not get any real answers in any of that time.

The Bible's story should only change slightly as time goes on, science might have to do radical redesigns from time to time as 'more pieces to the puzzle are uncovered'. Neither is willing to abandon current levels of thinking.

lone wolf

#23

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Who collects the money for this three-week course?

Faith is free ... it's learning the rules that costs

MHz

#24

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

Who collects the money for this three-week course?

Faith is free ... it's learning the rules that costs

The answer to that will cost you $50 (to me). That isn't a lot to pay to find out the course is free except for your time. (trick is picking a time when the spirit and flesh are both willing)

L Gilbert

#25

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

Greetings everyone. I found this forum through a web search. I'm brand new here. I would describe myself as a "believer", but I'd be reluctant to call myself a "Christian." There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

I would welcome an honest, civil discussion of the Bible in a general sense. I'm not as interested in doctrinal views as I am in general issues of faith and interpretation. If you'd be willing to engage in an open dialogue of this nature, please respond with your comments.

Thank you.

You just walked into a hornet's nest. You're going to hear all kinds of stuff starting from fundie interpretations to stuff like Yahweh is really an alien. lol

MHz

#26

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

....Yahweh is really an alien. lol

Is that your contribution?

L Gilbert

#27

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

No. Evolution does not refer to the change undertaken by a single organism in its lifetime. That is called metamorphosis.

Evolution refers to the genetic changes that happen to entire populations over centuries.

Well, I'd have said "over time" rather than "over centuries". Creatures with fast metabolisms and short lives generate populations very quickly; like virii and insects, etc. For instance a flu virus can generate a resistant population inside a year. Leafrollers can do the same inside 3 years. And so on.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

Is that your contribution?

What's it to you?

MHz

#28

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

What's it to you?

Nothing really, just thought it might be part of the 'general theme' of these words, "Will you discuss it with me?". I can live with you wanting that to remain a 'private conversation'. Bye.

lone wolf

#29

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

The answer to that will cost you $50 (to me). That isn't a lot to pay to find out the course is free except for your time. (trick is picking a time when the spirit and flesh are both willing)

I have a freer one. It's called a look out the window and an utterance of "magnificent". Why? Because it's there....

MHz

#30

Re: I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Feb 6th, 2012

Never once uttered the 'damn, that sucks (to be me)' when the weather in no as pleasant as it could be.

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