#1Feb 4th, 2012
The UN needs reform, starting off with removing veto powers.
Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
The UN needs reform, starting off with removing veto powers.
+3
#2 Top Rated PostRe: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
I've said the same thing re: Libya
I've said the same thing re: Israel
I've said the same thing re: Afghanistan - both times
I've said the same thing re: Vietnam
Meh.... Who listens to me?
I've said the same thing re: Israel
I've said the same thing re: Afghanistan - both times
I've said the same thing re: Vietnam
Meh.... Who listens to me?
#3
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
How far back (in decades) is that to be done? Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution - World - CBC News
The UN needs reform, starting off with removing veto powers.
I guess those 'rogue Arab States' will just will just have to ignore that. (perhaps even have some spies go into Israel and steal some N-bombs.
What's the difference in a duck-shoot and a turkey-shoot? Perhaps the US can get rid of the whole F-35 production run @ top $$$ and with Syria too damn big for a land invasion the whole thing is called off after just 1 year.
Perhaps the security members shouldn't get to vote at all (nor introduce proposed actions).
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf
Might have something to do with your 'name'Meh.... Who listens to me?
#4
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
If violent demonstrations were to develop in Washington D.C. eventually the police and the military would start killing the protesters just like in Syria just to end it.
#5
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
Since 1984, China and France have vetoed three resolutions each; Russia/USSR four; the United Kingdom ten; and the United States 43.
+1
#6Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
Oh fount of distorted facts. Perhaps when you list numbers, you should also include what the Veto was for. And as you do not have a link, please provide one as your thoughts, opinions, are as always biased. So proof from you is always a requirement. Never mind the cut and paste crap. Just a short list. I would imagine that in my uninformed opinion that approx 70-80 % of the Vetoes by the US were directed at Israel. And we all know how fond you are of Israel.Since 1984, China and France have vetoed three resolutions each; Russia/USSR four; the United Kingdom ten; and the United States 43.
#7
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
These are facts.
Number of times the US has used its UNSC veto since 1984: 43
Number of times Russia, China, the UK and France combined used their veto during the same period: 20
Number of times the US has used its UNSC veto since 1984: 43
Number of times Russia, China, the UK and France combined used their veto during the same period: 20
#8
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by Goober
Show him what the real facts are by doing just what you suggested, only include the missing years, that'll show him.Oh fount of distorted facts.
+1
#10Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
So you got some numbers. Now tell us what they were vetoing. Or doesn't that fit with your anti Israel/US thinking?These are facts.
Number of times the US has used its UNSC veto since 1984: 43
Number of times Russia, China, the UK and France combined used their veto during the same period: 20
#11
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
Those are numbers- They only tell a small part of the story. So tell us what the vetoes were related to. I am sure it would show as I mentioned.These are facts.
Number of times the US has used its UNSC veto since 1984: 43
Number of times Russia, China, the UK and France combined used their veto during the same period: 20
#12
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
The fact is the west uses more veto powers than anyone else. There would be a lot
more ridiculous actions if we removed veto powers. Don't people realize it is all
about theatre and politics not about results? The results are talked about behind
closed doors.
Take the Cuban Missile crisis. We saw the showdown on the high seas as America
blocked the vessels of the USSR. What we did not see was the compromise that saw
America remove missiles from areas of the Middle East, particularly Pakistan that were
aimed at Russia.
Syria is a nation that for the most part is secular in nature and leaning toward the left
of the political spectrum, most of us would agree too far left. The struggle is not about
right and left it is about two opposing forces and we should take a second look before
we get in a dither.
The prime drive of the protests are by people who support the interests of Iran. These
folks are in two different groups. One Shiite fundamentalists behind the scenes and they
have a sector of radical terrorists in Southern Lebanon who are Sunni but are supported
by Iranian Shiites.
The other group is made up of Sunni and one other small tribe, that at this moment I cannot
remember the name of, damn but that is something the way it is. Yes they are not big on
democracy, but then look at those groups that support Iran they are definitely not big on
democracy and we must fact that fact. We either support a group of murdering bastar*s or
we can support the other group of murdering bastar*s take your pick. Most people talk
about supporting the will of democracy and human rights in this area of the world when it
does not exist. I am not a conservative by any means but I tell you we have to get past the
silly liberal view that democracy can live and thrive in a vacuum, there is no winner here that is
good, one is as bad as the other and that is the first conclusion to toward understanding there
is no solution, the problem will go on and on and on. but we can dream
more ridiculous actions if we removed veto powers. Don't people realize it is all
about theatre and politics not about results? The results are talked about behind
closed doors.
Take the Cuban Missile crisis. We saw the showdown on the high seas as America
blocked the vessels of the USSR. What we did not see was the compromise that saw
America remove missiles from areas of the Middle East, particularly Pakistan that were
aimed at Russia.
Syria is a nation that for the most part is secular in nature and leaning toward the left
of the political spectrum, most of us would agree too far left. The struggle is not about
right and left it is about two opposing forces and we should take a second look before
we get in a dither.
The prime drive of the protests are by people who support the interests of Iran. These
folks are in two different groups. One Shiite fundamentalists behind the scenes and they
have a sector of radical terrorists in Southern Lebanon who are Sunni but are supported
by Iranian Shiites.
The other group is made up of Sunni and one other small tribe, that at this moment I cannot
remember the name of, damn but that is something the way it is. Yes they are not big on
democracy, but then look at those groups that support Iran they are definitely not big on
democracy and we must fact that fact. We either support a group of murdering bastar*s or
we can support the other group of murdering bastar*s take your pick. Most people talk
about supporting the will of democracy and human rights in this area of the world when it
does not exist. I am not a conservative by any means but I tell you we have to get past the
silly liberal view that democracy can live and thrive in a vacuum, there is no winner here that is
good, one is as bad as the other and that is the first conclusion to toward understanding there
is no solution, the problem will go on and on and on. but we can dream
#13
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
Not surprised. All member states veto the crap out of whatever they don't like.
They have that right.
They have that right.
#14
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012
Our Canadian culture and society prove that people can co-exist peacefully regardless of race or religion. Syrians aren't that different from Canadians. Fundamentally most people are kind and compassionate. Syria just isn't as far along in its social evolution as Canada.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Feb 4th, 2012 at 08:47 PM..
#15
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 4th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by mentalfloss
Kind of takes away the incentive of bringing anything up, perhaps everybody except the 5 should pack up and do some video conferencing from home turf, saving themselves oddles of money for the right to have a voice that means nothing at all. Clooectively the united little countries are still more powerful than the big 5 as fight amongst themselves would mean extermination (if the world was lucky)Not surprised. All member states veto the crap out of whatever they don't like.
They have that right.
Which is it?
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
Iran fought for it's citizens getting more than 15% of the revenue of it's oil, that was in 1953, in 1954 they were under a leader who repealed that deal from the people and it stayed that way for 25 years, without a revolt it would be like that today. Afghanistan was making similar strides in the '70's, by 1980 outsiders had brought them a steady diet of war and harsh oppression. Syrians aren't that different from Canadians. .....Syria isn't as far along in its social evolution as Canada.
Canada still thinks reservations for eternity is the perfect solution for meshing two different societies, most nations would hope we don't spawn any children.
#16
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
That's why I said we ought to eliminate the veto altogether; I did not say for certain countries and not others.Since 1984, China and France have vetoed three resolutions each; Russia/USSR four; the United Kingdom ten; and the United States 43.
#17
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
What do you base your experience on regarding Syrian culture, religion, history, corruption, power plays, massacres, revenge that goes back generations between sects, minorities within Syria. How Syrians have begun segregating according to religious sects for safety.Our Canadian culture and society prove that people can co-exist peacefully regardless of race or religion. Syrians aren't that different from Canadians. Fundamentally most people are kind and compassionate. Syria just isn't as far along in its social evolution as Canada.
Or is the above just off the top of your head? Translation a simple minded observation.
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And now the Butcher
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#18
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by MHz
It has what to do with anything?Might have something to do with your 'name'
#19
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012
It's a solitary one, anyway back to the news.
(in part)
Until it was leaked. Here it is, in full.
The report is adamant. There was no organized, lethal repression by the Syrian government against peaceful protesters. Instead, the report points to shady armed gangs as responsible for hundreds of deaths among Syrian civilians, and over one thousand among the Syrian army, using lethal tactics such as bombing of civilian buses, bombing of trains carrying diesel oil, bombing of police buses and bombing of bridges and pipelines.
... So the current "Arab-led drive to secure a peaceful end to the 10-month crackdown" in Syria at the UN is no less than a crude regime change drive. Usual suspects Washington, London and Paris have been forced to fall over themselves to assure the real international community this is not another mandate for NATO bombing - a la Libya. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton described it as "a path for a political transition that would preserve Syria's unity and institutions".
--
(in part)
Until it was leaked. Here it is, in full.
The report is adamant. There was no organized, lethal repression by the Syrian government against peaceful protesters. Instead, the report points to shady armed gangs as responsible for hundreds of deaths among Syrian civilians, and over one thousand among the Syrian army, using lethal tactics such as bombing of civilian buses, bombing of trains carrying diesel oil, bombing of police buses and bombing of bridges and pipelines.
... So the current "Arab-led drive to secure a peaceful end to the 10-month crackdown" in Syria at the UN is no less than a crude regime change drive. Usual suspects Washington, London and Paris have been forced to fall over themselves to assure the real international community this is not another mandate for NATO bombing - a la Libya. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton described it as "a path for a political transition that would preserve Syria's unity and institutions".
--
#20
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by MHz
NOw there is an unbiased source of information.It's a solitary one, anyway back to the news.
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:
(in part)
Until it was leaked. Here it is, in full.
The report is adamant. There was no organized, lethal repression by the Syrian government against peaceful protesters. Instead, the report points to shady armed gangs as responsible for hundreds of deaths among Syrian civilians, and over one thousand among the Syrian army, using lethal tactics such as bombing of civilian buses, bombing of trains carrying diesel oil, bombing of police buses and bombing of bridges and pipelines.
... So the current "Arab-led drive to secure a peaceful end to the 10-month crackdown" in Syria at the UN is no less than a crude regime change drive. Usual suspects Washington, London and Paris have been forced to fall over themselves to assure the real international community this is not another mandate for NATO bombing - a la Libya. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton described it as "a path for a political transition that would preserve Syria's unity and institutions".
poorrichard's blog: Arab league monitors find slaughter in Syria the work of foreign-backed subversives
#21
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by MHz
I don't hide behind colours. Problem with that?It's a solitary one
Try it in the right topic....
#22
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave
Who?? Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC)NOw there is an unbiased source of information.
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf
Whatever that means, since I don't want any clarity I would appear to not have a problem with it, that alright?I don't hide behind colours. Problem with that?
#23
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by MHz
I only wish he could refute what I know. But he runs away like a little fraidy cat. I and many others are more than used to this.Show him what the real facts are by doing just what you suggested, only include the missing years, that'll show him.
#24
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012
I am against the Syrian government, not the Syrian people. Syria has been ruled by autocratic dictators who will commit any crime to retain their grip on power for as long as I can remember. I first became aware of Syria's problems when this was news:
The Hama massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حماة) occurred in February 1982, when the Syrian army, under the orders of the country's president, Hafez al-Assad, conducted a scorched earth operation against the town of Hama in order to quell a revolt by the Sunni Muslim community against the regime of al-Assad.[1] The Hama massacre, supervised in person by President Assad's younger brother, Rifaat al-Assad, effectively ended the campaign begun in 1976 by Sunni Islamic groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, against Assad's regime, whose leaders were disproportionately from president Assad's own Alawite sect.
Initial diplomatic reports from western countries stated that 1,000 were killed.[2][3] Subsequent estimates vary, with the lower estimates claiming that at least 10,000 Syrian citizens were killed,[4] while others put the number at 20,000 (Robert Fisk),[1] or 40,000 (Syrian Human Rights Committee).[5][6] About 1,000 Syrian soldiers were killed during the operation and large parts of the old city were destroyed. Alongside such few events as the Black September Massacre in Jordan,[7] the attack has been described as one of "the single deadliest acts by any Arab government against its own people in the modern Middle East".[8] The vast majority of the victims were civilians.[9]
wiki
When the dictator's son inherited control, I hoped that he would introduce democratic reforms. Instead he's proved himself to be as cruel as his father.
The Hama massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حماة) occurred in February 1982, when the Syrian army, under the orders of the country's president, Hafez al-Assad, conducted a scorched earth operation against the town of Hama in order to quell a revolt by the Sunni Muslim community against the regime of al-Assad.[1] The Hama massacre, supervised in person by President Assad's younger brother, Rifaat al-Assad, effectively ended the campaign begun in 1976 by Sunni Islamic groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, against Assad's regime, whose leaders were disproportionately from president Assad's own Alawite sect.
Initial diplomatic reports from western countries stated that 1,000 were killed.[2][3] Subsequent estimates vary, with the lower estimates claiming that at least 10,000 Syrian citizens were killed,[4] while others put the number at 20,000 (Robert Fisk),[1] or 40,000 (Syrian Human Rights Committee).[5][6] About 1,000 Syrian soldiers were killed during the operation and large parts of the old city were destroyed. Alongside such few events as the Black September Massacre in Jordan,[7] the attack has been described as one of "the single deadliest acts by any Arab government against its own people in the modern Middle East".[8] The vast majority of the victims were civilians.[9]
wiki
When the dictator's son inherited control, I hoped that he would introduce democratic reforms. Instead he's proved himself to be as cruel as his father.
#25
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 5th, 2012
Not surprising that two countries with a long history of violence to support other countries with similar problems.
#26
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 6th, 2012
It would seem China's and Russia's argument concerns sovereignty:
--
How can we allow such excessive sovereignty in the modern world? I can understand China's and Russia's position, but certainly there must be a limit to sovereignty.
After initial anger on my part, reading the article I linked to above makes me a little more understanding of the Russian side and it does have some legitimate arguments for its decision. I still think we should get rid of vetos though.
--
How can we allow such excessive sovereignty in the modern world? I can understand China's and Russia's position, but certainly there must be a limit to sovereignty.
After initial anger on my part, reading the article I linked to above makes me a little more understanding of the Russian side and it does have some legitimate arguments for its decision. I still think we should get rid of vetos though.
#27
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 6th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
You just mean for Russia and China, if their points had been considered before there wouldn't have even been a vote to veto.It would seem China's and Russia's argument concerns sovereignty:
--
How can we allow such excessive sovereignty in the modern world? I can understand China's and Russia's position, but certainly there must be a limit to sovereignty.
After initial anger on my part, reading the article I linked to above makes me a little more understanding of the Russian side and it does have some legitimate arguments for its decision. I still think we should get rid of vetos though.
+1
#28Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 6th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
The Russian veto has more to do with protecting their arm sales then anything. Sovereignty is just a convenient excuse for them to use.It would seem China's and Russia's argument concerns sovereignty:
--
How can we allow such excessive sovereignty in the modern world? I can understand China's and Russia's position, but certainly there must be a limit to sovereignty.
After initial anger on my part, reading the article I linked to above makes me a little more understanding of the Russian side and it does have some legitimate arguments for its decision. I still think we should get rid of vetos though.
#29
Re: Russia, China veto UN Syria resolution
Feb 6th, 2012Quote: Originally Posted by MHz
I still disagree with Russia's and China's position, but after reading the article, I can respect it better. That still does not change the fact that no country ought to have a veto power in the first place.You just mean for Russia and China, if their points had been considered before there wouldn't have even been a vote to veto.
but under the circumstances, seeing that they do have veto power, it might have made sense to consult with them first.
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