Law making Resolutions binding passed. What next?

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Imagine the following scenario:

A law is passed in Parliament that all resolutions passed by any international organization to which Canada is a member-state has the force of law in Canada.

How do you think the government would be most likely to react, assuming for the sake of argument that it could not repeal this law?

My guess is, if it's a Conservative government, it would likely choose to simply withdraw its membership from most of these organizations, except possibly NATO. If it were a left-coalition, my guess is it too would withdraw from most organizations except possibly UN organizations. Hard to say of course.

Also, do you think such a law would be a good idea?

Personally, I would support such a law since it would certainly force the government to be more honest about its commitment to any international organization it intends to join, and so would refuse to join any such organization just for the photo op, and would be more diligent in choosing its membership more thoughtfully.

It would also make Canada a more trustworthy nation on the world stage, regardless of its membership either way.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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A lot of commentary is already out there about the way people dislike the degree foreigners influence our government (mainly via multinational corporations). I honestly don't buy into all of it but I do think Canada needs to maintain its sovereignty. By passing such a law, we would be giving away more of that sovereignty than we already have.

I can't see any government being stupid enough to pass such a law: it would be political suicide for whomever supported it.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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A lot of commentary is already out there about the way people dislike the degree foreigners influence our government (mainly via multinational corporations). I honestly don't buy into all of it but I do think Canada needs to maintain its sovereignty. By passing such a law, we would be giving away more of that sovereignty than we already have.

I can't see any government being stupid enough to pass such a law: it would be political suicide for whomever supported it.

Then you misunderstood the OP. Of course the OP is somewhat hypothetical, but it also clarified that it would not force a government to be a member of this or that organization, but merely to abide by the resolutions of the organizations of which it's a member. Looking at it that way, a simple solution, even if such a law were passed, would be to resign from the organization, with all its resolutions automatically becoming inapplicable unless the country should rejoin it.

If anything, such a law could potentially give Canada more sovereignty if let's say a Conservative government decided to just pull the plug on all organizations Canada was a member of. So depending on how a government reacted, it could grant Canada more, or less, sovereignty depending on how Canada played its cards.

One thing that would be consistent though is that Canada's foreign policy would be forced to be more consistent and less two-faced whichever way it decided to go.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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...my guess is it too would withdraw from most organizations except possibly UN organizations. Hard to say of course.


Many of the UN organizations are pretty nuts too. Canada would be absolutely screwed being
at the mercy of every other nation (or groups of nations) with their own best interests at heart,
at Canada's expence. Insert America instead of Canada in this senario, and try to picture
that happening.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Many of the UN organizations are pretty nuts too. Canada would be absolutely screwed being
at the mercy of every other nation (or groups of nations) with their own best interests at heart,
at Canada's expence. Insert America instead of Canada in this senario, and try to picture
that happening.

Then why be a member of an organization no one respects? In that case, withdrawal of membership would be better.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Then why be a member of an organization no one respects? In that case, withdrawal of membership would be better.


Being Autonomous in being able to pick and choose the sane positions from the
insane ones in an organization like the U.N. or any other group of nations, so as
not to toss out the Baby with the Bath-Water would be my guess.

Some good comes out of these organizations, but not everything they do is good
for all involved by any means.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Essentially, here's how I look at it. Governments get together under an international intergevernmental organization to find agreement. UN resolutions are just that to a degree, in that it represents a majority vote of the worlds' nations, and then all abide by it. If however we have no respect for any such agreements, then they aren't worth the paper they're printed on and are valuable for nothing but the photo op. In that case, it's a waste of money and we might as well withdraw.

Why pretend it's working when it's not?

Being Autonomous in being able to pick and choose the sane positions from the
insane ones in an organization like the U.N. or any other group of nations, so as
not to toss out the Baby with the Bath-Water would be my guess.

Some good comes out of these organizations, but not everything they do is good
for all involved by any means.

But if each country will just pick and choose what serves its own interests, then some kind of forum like the G20, where each party must sign on for agreement to be enforced would be worthwhile, whereas an organization based on majority vote is a waste of salaries for the ambassadors involved seeing that all their talk and votes will come to nothing anyway. In that case, we might as well scrap any ind of voting body like the UN and just keep negotiative organizations like the G20.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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But if each country will just pick and choose what serves its own interests, then some kind of forum like the G20, where each party must sign on for agreement to be enforced would be worthwhile, whereas an organization based on majority vote is a waste of salaries for the ambassadors involved seeing that all their talk and votes will come to nothing anyway. In that case, we might as well scrap any ind of voting body like the UN and just keep negotiative organizations like the G20.


You may very well be a prophet of future international dealings. Perhaps organizations
like the U.N. have had their time, and now are primarily a source of Hot Air and Grand
Standing. They still do some good at this point, but is that sort'a like comparing the
U.N. to Labour Unions that also had their time & did lots of good in the past, but
are now becoming dinosaurs in their own right?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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You may very well be a prophet of future international dealings. Perhaps organizations
like the U.N. have had their time, and now are primarily a source of Hot Air and Grand
Standing. They still do some good at this point, but is that sort'a like comparing the
U.N. to Labour Unions that also had their time & did lots of good in the past, but
are now becoming dinosaurs in their own right?

And that's where I can see the proposal in the OP being beneficial. It would force politicians to really question whether this or that organization is worth being a member of or if it's just a photo op organization. Essentially, it would serve as the litmus test. If we're not going to respect its resolutions anyway, then why waste money on passing resolutions? In that case, such a law would force a government to simply withdraw its membership and instead join organizations that don't pass resolutions, or that pass resolutions we can agree to, such as if a unanimous vote is required or something of the sort for a resolution to pas.

Such a proposal would put an end to photo op organizations. Either the organization has teeth and its resolutions are respected, or let it go the way of the dodo bird.

thanks for the vote on that last post, Ron.

Of course we could just ask the Canadian government to either respect the resolutions of the organizations to which it's a member or withdraw its membership, and make a choice. If we do it that way, chances are nothng will happen and the photo op organizations will remain.

If on the other hand we merely suggest passing a law requiring the government to respect all resolutions passed by member organizations, then suddenly it makes the uselessness of the resolutions stand out. After all, why be a member of an organizations whose resolutions we won't respect anyway.

But then of course they would never want to pass such a law because it would make it more obvious how we're members of so many toothless photo op organizations.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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To go back to your original premise, I think it would result in partisanship dictating which groups we join or withdraw from. ALL the parties would do it.

And that's where I can see the proposal in the OP being beneficial. It would force politicians to really question whether this or that organization is worth being a member of or if it's just a photo op organization.

But that would mean we would join and depart from these organizations whenever we changed gov'ts because the Tories and Grits both have opposing views on what the long term direction of the country should be and thus the organizations we participate in. This could also potentially be damaging to our international reputation and credibility, sort of like a sports free agent who is constantly stating they want their contract renegotiated or to be traded. Other countries would only take so much of that kind of action before we became somewhat of a pariah.

I also think you misunderstand how the G7 or G20 operate as well: the representatives meet and discuss issues and how they would like to see them dealt with. They do make cursory commitments at times but usually only after extensive negotiation. They're not into making binding resolutions on their membership (not to mention without making sure everyone is on board). Its also not an "everyone can join" group like the UN but an exclusive one,based on economic strength (which has its pros and cons as well).
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Imagine the following scenario:

A law is passed in Parliament that all resolutions passed by any international organization to which Canada is a member-state has the force of law in Canada.

How do you think the government would be most likely to react, assuming for the sake of argument that it could not repeal this law?

My guess is, if it's a Conservative government, it would likely choose to simply withdraw its membership from most of these organizations, except possibly NATO. If it were a left-coalition, my guess is it too would withdraw from most organizations except possibly UN organizations. Hard to say of course.

Also, do you think such a law would be a good idea?

Personally, I would support such a law since it would certainly force the government to be more honest about its commitment to any international organization it intends to join, and so would refuse to join any such organization just for the photo op, and would be more diligent in choosing its membership more thoughtfully.

It would also make Canada a more trustworthy nation on the world stage, regardless of its membership either way.

Sounds like you are for a World Govt???????
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Sounds like you are for a World Govt???????

You didn't read between the lines, Goober.

That depends on whether such a law pushes parties to withdraw membership from various organizations in response, or whether they choose to remain members but abide by its rules.

Let's look at personal membership. Goober, have you yourself voluntarily joined an organization the rules of which you disagreed with? And the organizations you did choose to join of your own free will, did you not also choose, as a matter of principle, to either abide by its rules or, once finding out that you disagreed with its rules, withdrew your membership?

Why should it be any different for a government? If the government disagrees with the resolutions passed by this or that organization, then why is it still a member? For the photo op? I so, that's a very expensive photo op.

Personally, I believe such a law would likely push politicians to make some hard choices, resulting in the government withdrawing its membership from many organizations.

To go back to your original premise, I think it would result in partisanship dictating which groups we join or withdraw from. ALL the parties would do it.

Hmmm... you do have a point here. It could risk Canada joining and leaving organizations every four years. Now of course we can't deny at least it would make Canada predictable in the sense that as long as it's a member of this or that organization, it would also abide by its rules. That would be a positive, seeing that any predictability and consistency is good. However, you do have a point that then Canada might be joining and leaving organizations like a yoyo every four years.

That said, even this could have advantages in that if Canada did it enough times, eventually other organizations would eventually refuse Canada's application into their organization owing to Canada never being able to make up its mind. Besides, if Canadians can't get behind an organization enough to be consistent members of that organization, then it's probably better that it refuse our application to join anyway.

This would likely mean that except for those international organizations that a clear and consistent majority of Canadians and Canadian politicians support, other organizations would eventually give us an ultimatum that if we leave again, we won't be welcome back in.

But like I said, if we're not that committed to that organization anyway, it would be all for the better.



But that would mean we would join and depart from these organizations whenever we changed gov'ts because the Tories and Grits both have opposing views on what the long term direction of the country should be and thus the organizations we participate in. This could also potentially be damaging to our international reputation and credibility, sort of like a sports free agent who is constantly stating they want their contract renegotiated or to be traded. Other countries would only take so much of that kind of action before we became somewhat of a pariah.

Hmmm... looks like I should have read this before answering the paragraph above. Anyway, how do we define credibility? Is it credible to be a member of an organization but then not adhere to its resolutions? Looking at it that way, we would just be more honest about our commitment. Yes, eventually these organizations would kick us out, and all the better. The only organizations we'd be members of then would be those that it would seem a clear and consistent majority of MPs support election after election.

In the short term, yes, it might make Canada look ridiculous. In the long term though, whatever organizations we are still members of by then (assuming there are any) would trust fully in our commitment to them, which in turn would give us more sway in those organizations owing to the trust we'd have gained from them.

I also think you misunderstand how the G7 or G20 operate as well: the representatives meet and discuss issues and how they would like to see them dealt with. They do make cursory commitments at times but usually only after extensive negotiation. They're not into making binding resolutions on their membership (not to mention without making sure everyone is on board). Its also not an "everyone can join" group like the UN but an exclusive one,based on economic strength (which has its pros and cons as well).

Exactly what I was saying. Since the G7 and G20 do not pass resolutions to begin with, Canada could safely remain a member if the proposal in the OP were passed, since it would never have to worry about a resolution it would disagree with. Again, it would make Canada a more reliable partner in the world since any organization we're a member of would no we're either fully on board or we're out, none of this billion-dollar photo op BS.

Another way I could see a political party getting around the law would be to apply not for membership, but rather observer status. By not being a full-fledged member, it would not get any voting rights of course, but would still at least be kept abreast of what's going on in the organization.

Besides, if we're not going to abide by resolutions either way, then what should we care whether a resolution passes of fails? At least it would show us honest. By simply associating with an organization but not actually being a member, we would thus be free to collaborate with it as we see fit, the the degree we wish, without appearing hypocritical in any way.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
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Given the fact that many international resolutions have no enforcement mechanism it may not matter whether Canada decides to abide by them. A case in point is the forgotten Kyoto Protocol which Canada signed and then ignored. All in all international resoultions only work if those members approving them actually put enforcement mechanisms in place, such as economic sanctions.