Capital punishment as a sign of mercy?

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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More news on Col. Williams here:

CBC News - Ottawa - Col. Williams faces 82 more charges

As it turns out, he's attempted suicide in his cell at least once that I'm aware of, and is now on a hunger strike. He obviously does not want to live. When we consider his being guilty of murder with so much evidence against him, would capital punishment not be a merciful option for him? It could serve as valuable target practice for the military too, now? It would kill a few birds with one and the same stone:

1. It would save the taxpayer money especially in the additional costs of 24 hour suicide watch.

2. It would give a regiment target practice.

3. It would put him out of his misery.

You're thoughts on this? Could capital punishment be considered a merciful policy under certain conditions? Or what about capital punishment at the convict's request at least?
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
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1. Assuming we skip all the appeals that go with a death sentence, sure, we would save some money but if the US is an example, most death sentences take 10+ years.

2. Why would soldiers need an actual person to practice on? The body would be meat after a dozen or so shots.

3. You would have to ask him.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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OK granted the regiment would get no more than one shot before the guy is totally tenderized. Bear in mind though that that itself could be considered merciful since having the bullets of an entire regiment come at you at once will certainly not give you much time to suffer, especially if each soldier's aim is intended for maximum lethality (e.g. head or heart), which would be expected of them.

As for capital punishment at the convict's request, so what if we have to ask him. What? Are we afraid he'll be offended at our request to kill him? If so, then a simple solution would be that we could not make such a request of him and the initiative would have to come from him to receive capital punishment. That would certainly eliminate more than a few legal hassles there.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Some dork wants to kill himself after he's been accused of something nasty, it's up to him. As long as it's all his doing, I am fine with it. If it costs Canada a penny, then no; let the dork sufer.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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But think of the money we could save on food, clothing, shelter, medical (including psychiatric) care, 24-hour suicide watches, etc.

Seriously now, how much would it cost in comparison to ship him to Valcartier and have each member of the Vandoos log one bullet in him at the same time?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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More news on Col. Williams here:

CBC News - Ottawa - Col. Williams faces 82 more charges

As it turns out, he's attempted suicide in his cell at least once that I'm aware of, and is now on a hunger strike. He obviously does not want to live. When we consider his being guilty of murder with so much evidence against him, would capital punishment not be a merciful option for him? It could serve as valuable target practice for the military too, now? It would kill a few birds with one and the same stone:

1. It would save the taxpayer money especially in the additional costs of 24 hour suicide watch.

2. It would give a regiment target practice.

3. It would put him out of his misery.

You're thoughts on this? Could capital punishment be considered a merciful policy under certain conditions? Or what about capital punishment at the convict's request at least?

Sounds good to me. What would be the use in keeping the S.O.B. around?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Sounds good to me. What would be the use in keeping the S.O.B. around?

Of course we could make him profitable to us if he possesses valuable skills. But generally a man trained n the military does not learn any kind of trade that could add to the GDP in any way.

And even if he has such skills, if he's suicidal, he's not likely to be very productive anyway; depressed people are not very motivated to work. Now if he was an innocent but depressed man, I'd be more than willing to pay my taxes to provide him with the care he needs. But we're not talking about an innocent man here.

And as for human rights, for cryin' out loud, HE wants to die. Think of it as assisted euthanasia at his request. Certainly capital punishment at the convict's own request ought to be granted.

Now of course if there's any doubt about his guilt or innocence, then I'd oppose capital punishment even at the convict's request so as to avoid a case of 'suicide by cop' of a potentially innocent man. But in this particular case, he's essentially confessed.
 

Mowich

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Dec 25, 2005
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Giving this guy a 'more merciful option' is simply grotesque. Where did a mercy play a part in any of the heinous crimes he committed?????

Suck it up Williams. You did the crime. You WILL pay the time.

Besides, capital punishment is not an option in Canada.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
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Ottawa, ON
Giving this guy a 'more merciful option' is simply grotesque. Where did a mercy play a part in any of the heinous crimes he committed?????

Suck it up Williams. You did the crime. You WILL pay the time.

Well, I was bringing up the idea of mercy so as to make it more palatable fo an idea for the more faint of heart. My real concern though is with the cost of supporting him. He's punished us enough without us punishing ourselves even more financially by keeping him alive when he himself wants to die.

Besides, capital punishment is not an option in Canada.

If the law can't be changed, then what's the point of having a legislature?
 

Mowich

Hall of Fame Member
Dec 25, 2005
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Of course, you mean parliament, right? It would be at the federal level where any changes would be made regarding capital punishment.

Williams hasn't done a thing to me personally so I am quite happy to let the criminal justice system deal with him. Cost is not an issue with me when it comes to keeping people of this ilk caged.
 

Downhome_Woman

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2008
588
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Ontariariario
Of course we could make him profitable to us if he possesses valuable skills. But generally a man trained n the military does not learn any kind of trade that could add to the GDP in any way.

And even if he has such skills, if he's suicidal, he's not likely to be very productive anyway; depressed people are not very motivated to work. Now if he was an innocent but depressed man, I'd be more than willing to pay my taxes to provide him with the care he needs. But we're not talking about an innocent man here.

And as for human rights, for cryin' out loud, HE wants to die. Think of it as assisted euthanasia at his request. Certainly capital punishment at the convict's own request ought to be granted.

Now of course if there's any doubt about his guilt or innocence, then I'd oppose capital punishment even at the convict's request so as to avoid a case of 'suicide by cop' of a potentially innocent man. But in this particular case, he's essentially confessed.
OK - I'm not a Russ Williams fan - he's terrorized, raped and killed. He's also betrayed his wife, the Air Force and the Armed Forces - and while I realize that the last three don't matter to a lot of people they do to me. however, I have deep reservations regarding Capital Punishment. too many people have been on death row and too many of them have been found to be innocent - too late. As far as Williams wanting to die. I've always believed that one should never reward bad behaviour. Call me barbaric and revenge filled, but rather than put him out of his misery? I want him in prison and suffering for what he did.

Now - you remarks, "generally a man trained n the military does not learn any kind of trade that could add to the GDP in any way" Excuse me? What? Do you think all they do is learn what is the business end of a rifle? Here's a sample of just some of the career descriptions for a few jobs. these descriptions don't mention the constant upgrading of skills that go on through of the member's career - and all those skill upgrades, the degrees, the hands on experience, the management skills that are gained while serving as an officer in the military (and I'm only focused on officers, as Williams is one, but the same goes for enlisted members as well). These people are usually head hunted by civilian firms BECAUSE of their experience in the military. Trust me, your assumption that generally a man trained n the military does not learn any kind of trade that could add to the GDP in any way is wrong, and I felt that I really had to address it.

Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Officer

Overview
Electrical and Mechanical Engineering (EME) Officers are commissioned members of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Branch of the Canadian Forces, responsible for the maintenance and engineering support of all Army equipment. They lead the soldier technicians who keep CF equipment in top condition, and work in every equipment life-cycle phase, from design, evaluation and acquisition through in-service support to eventual disposal.

Main Tasks
EME Officers can practice virtually any engineering discipline, as military equipment incorporates the full range of current technology, including thermal, electro-optic and radar sensing and guidance devices; fourth-generation computer hardware, firmware and software; and the most modern electronic, mechanical and hydraulic systems.

As an EME Officer, your duties will involve command authority, technical staff responsibility, and specialized engineering knowledge. To ensure the combat effectiveness of the personnel under your command, you must be a good leader proficient in tactics, training and administration. Most of the personnel under your command will be the highly skilled technicians of the Vehicle, Weapon, Fire-Control Systems and Material occupations.

Qualification Requirements
Service as an EME Officer calls for selfless leadership and the highest dedication to the chain of command, to your peers and, especially, to your subordinates.

EME Officers must be able to lead troops in close support to Combat Arms units, and are frequently required to perform many physical and mental tasks at once in adverse circumstances, including land combat.

You must able to handle a broad range of duties, including–but not limited to–labour relations with unionized civilian employees, financial and contract administration, management of automated information systems, and reliability engineering. Moreover, you must have a detailed current knowledge of industrial safety.

To succeed in this career, you will need physical and mental strength and stamina; resourcefulness, flexibility and initiative; methodical, efficient thought processes; cool, mature judgement; and the ability to perform steadily under stress.

As for academic requirements, you need to have completed a technology collegial diploma in engineering or at least two years of a university engineering program.

Working Environment
EME Officers work in all climates, environments and circumstances, from the industry-like setting of a base or garrison to the discomforts and risks of service with an operational Army unit, like on exercise in Canada. The major source of stress for EME Officers, as for other Army officers, is the requirement to meet operational deadlines, supervise large numbers of personnel, and make critical decisions in circumstances where the consequences of error are abnormally high.

Appropriate training, environmental clothing and equipment are provided, and Electrical and Mechanical Engineering's health, safety and morale are closely monitored.

Units
51ème Bataillon des Services du Canada

Logistics Officer

Overview
Logistics Officers support the Canadian Forces by providing services in the fields of human resource management, supply, finance and food services.

Main Tasks
In the field of supply, you will be responsible for receiving, warehousing, control, procurement and issue of military equipment and materiel. You will supervise other officers, as well as supply technicians and civilian employees.

In the field of finance, you will be responsible for providing your unit with management services, such as budget preparation, as well as providing accounting services in connection with the commitment of public and non-public funds. You will supervise other officers, resource management support clerks and civilian employees.

In the field of food services, you will be responsible for the planning, organization, direction, control and evaluation of work performed in food services. In the course of your duties, you may be called upon to supervise people undergoing on-job training, as well as supervising cooks and civilian employees.

Logistics officers are also called upon to play a leadership and advisory role in two broad areas: human resource management and personnel services. In the former, support officers provide commanders with advice on all aspects of personnel management and military careers, including file management, performance evaluation, career counselling, the preparation of members' release documentation, and the arrival and departure procedures involved in the movement of members. In the second of these areas, that is, personnel services, support officers are responsible for the supervision and administration of services to members of the Canadian Forces and their families. They also co-ordinate medical, dental and legal services, social assistance and the services provided by the Chaplains and Military Police.

Qualification Requirement
A variety of baccalaureate degree programs are acceptable for entry into this military occupation. However, a degree in one of the following fields is preferred: Business or Public Administration, Commerce, Accounting, Finance, Economics, Transportation Management, Food Services/Hotel/ Resort/Hospitality and Tourism Management/ Administration or Nutrition, Industrial Relations, Human Resources Management, or Supply Chain Management.aines ou gestion de la chaîne d'approvisionnement.

You need to have a university degree in one of these fields, a college business administration diploma, be a member of an accountant association or a big experience in administration, accounting or transportation. You must meet Canadian Forces medical standards, and successfully complete a selection process that includes interviews and a wide range of examinations.

Working Environment
Logistics Officers usually work inside at a desk in a controlled environment. When working with a filed Unit, they might experience operational living and working conditions and the same hazards as combat troops. Appropriate training, environmental clothing and equipment are provided, and logistics officers' health, safety and morale are closely monitored.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,337
113
Vancouver Island
OK - I'm not a Russ Williams fan - he's terrorized, raped and killed. He's also betrayed his wife, the Air Force and the Armed Forces - and while I realize that the last three don't matter to a lot of people they do to me. however, I have deep reservations regarding Capital Punishment. too many people have been on death row and too many of them have been found to be innocent - too late. As far as Williams wanting to die. I've always believed that one should never reward bad behaviour. Call me barbaric and revenge filled, but rather than put him out of his misery? I want him in prison and suffering for what he did.

Now - you remarks, "generally a man trained n the military does not learn any kind of trade that could add to the GDP in any way" Excuse me? What? Do you think all they do is learn what is the business end of a rifle? Here's a sample of just some of the career descriptions for a few jobs. these descriptions don't mention the constant upgrading of skills that go on through of the member's career - and all those skill upgrades, the degrees, the hands on experience, the management skills that are gained while serving as an officer in the military (and I'm only focused on officers, as Williams is one, but the same goes for enlisted members as well). These people are usually head hunted by civilian firms BECAUSE of their experience in the military. Trust me, your assumption that generally a man trained n the military does not learn any kind of trade that could add to the GDP in any way is wrong, and I felt that I really had to address it.

Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Officer

Overview
Electrical and Mechanical Engineering (EME) Officers are commissioned members of the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Branch of the Canadian Forces, responsible for the maintenance and engineering support of all Army equipment. They lead the soldier technicians who keep CF equipment in top condition, and work in every equipment life-cycle phase, from design, evaluation and acquisition through in-service support to eventual disposal.

Main Tasks
EME Officers can practice virtually any engineering discipline, as military equipment incorporates the full range of current technology, including thermal, electro-optic and radar sensing and guidance devices; fourth-generation computer hardware, firmware and software; and the most modern electronic, mechanical and hydraulic systems.

As an EME Officer, your duties will involve command authority, technical staff responsibility, and specialized engineering knowledge. To ensure the combat effectiveness of the personnel under your command, you must be a good leader proficient in tactics, training and administration. Most of the personnel under your command will be the highly skilled technicians of the Vehicle, Weapon, Fire-Control Systems and Material occupations.

Qualification Requirements
Service as an EME Officer calls for selfless leadership and the highest dedication to the chain of command, to your peers and, especially, to your subordinates.

EME Officers must be able to lead troops in close support to Combat Arms units, and are frequently required to perform many physical and mental tasks at once in adverse circumstances, including land combat.

You must able to handle a broad range of duties, including–but not limited to–labour relations with unionized civilian employees, financial and contract administration, management of automated information systems, and reliability engineering. Moreover, you must have a detailed current knowledge of industrial safety.

To succeed in this career, you will need physical and mental strength and stamina; resourcefulness, flexibility and initiative; methodical, efficient thought processes; cool, mature judgement; and the ability to perform steadily under stress.

As for academic requirements, you need to have completed a technology collegial diploma in engineering or at least two years of a university engineering program.

Working Environment
EME Officers work in all climates, environments and circumstances, from the industry-like setting of a base or garrison to the discomforts and risks of service with an operational Army unit, like on exercise in Canada. The major source of stress for EME Officers, as for other Army officers, is the requirement to meet operational deadlines, supervise large numbers of personnel, and make critical decisions in circumstances where the consequences of error are abnormally high.

Appropriate training, environmental clothing and equipment are provided, and Electrical and Mechanical Engineering's health, safety and morale are closely monitored.

Units
51ème Bataillon des Services du Canada

Logistics Officer

Overview
Logistics Officers support the Canadian Forces by providing services in the fields of human resource management, supply, finance and food services.

Main Tasks
In the field of supply, you will be responsible for receiving, warehousing, control, procurement and issue of military equipment and materiel. You will supervise other officers, as well as supply technicians and civilian employees.

In the field of finance, you will be responsible for providing your unit with management services, such as budget preparation, as well as providing accounting services in connection with the commitment of public and non-public funds. You will supervise other officers, resource management support clerks and civilian employees.

In the field of food services, you will be responsible for the planning, organization, direction, control and evaluation of work performed in food services. In the course of your duties, you may be called upon to supervise people undergoing on-job training, as well as supervising cooks and civilian employees.

Logistics officers are also called upon to play a leadership and advisory role in two broad areas: human resource management and personnel services. In the former, support officers provide commanders with advice on all aspects of personnel management and military careers, including file management, performance evaluation, career counselling, the preparation of members' release documentation, and the arrival and departure procedures involved in the movement of members. In the second of these areas, that is, personnel services, support officers are responsible for the supervision and administration of services to members of the Canadian Forces and their families. They also co-ordinate medical, dental and legal services, social assistance and the services provided by the Chaplains and Military Police.

Qualification Requirement
A variety of baccalaureate degree programs are acceptable for entry into this military occupation. However, a degree in one of the following fields is preferred: Business or Public Administration, Commerce, Accounting, Finance, Economics, Transportation Management, Food Services/Hotel/ Resort/Hospitality and Tourism Management/ Administration or Nutrition, Industrial Relations, Human Resources Management, or Supply Chain Management.aines ou gestion de la chaîne d'approvisionnement.

You need to have a university degree in one of these fields, a college business administration diploma, be a member of an accountant association or a big experience in administration, accounting or transportation. You must meet Canadian Forces medical standards, and successfully complete a selection process that includes interviews and a wide range of examinations.

Working Environment
Logistics Officers usually work inside at a desk in a controlled environment. When working with a filed Unit, they might experience operational living and working conditions and the same hazards as combat troops. Appropriate training, environmental clothing and equipment are provided, and logistics officers' health, safety and morale are closely monitored.
I worked for DND for about 1 1/2 years as a mechanic. EME Officer is just a fancy term for maintenance supervisor. Don't have to know much except how to fill out forms. They have poorly trained enlisted men to do the grunt work and civilians with trade cert to do the real work or they farm it out.
Most of the ex military personnel that I have worked with have very poor work ethics, no motivation and poor training.