Whats your take on Unions?

[Johnnny]

What do you think about unions?

In my city USW 6500 is on strike thats hurting alot of business"s. And now the college teachers are about to go on strike, shutting down our two colleges. And screwing alot of students badely...

Last year the MTO, TD and CIBC bankers were on strike...

Local 598 reached a tentative deal with xstrata, thank god mabye they wont strike....

What the hell, it seems to me in my city at least Unions do more harm then good...

Then some of the strikers, not going to say which union is threatening people in the community and demanding a boycott of business's in sudbury to force the corporations back to the table...

 

[darkbeaver]

Well, if you don't have strong unions they send your jobs overseas and then you have to take a pay cut because you're not productive anymore and then after a bit your children work in sweat shops and you die young because they said medi-care was too expensive for useless eaters. If you're not in unison you are alone and they will pick you off in the office where you thought you could win a one on one, as promised, with that horrible little prick on the other side of the desk.

 

[GreenFish66]

Unions for the common folk are A joke...Organization Unions are currupt and wired into the gov ...So also B.S..

 

[JLM]

Unions have their place but it should be restricted to that of a watch dog for safety issues. No business telling owners how to run their business.

 

[GreenFish66]

Respect on all sides is always needed to be successful/sustainable

 

[countryboy]

Like anything else, some unions serve a useful purpose, some the opposite. I don't think they'd do much to prevent jobs from moving overseas, as they have - in some cases - tended to push costs very high, which adds to the reason for those jobs disappearing in the first place.

I think they played a part in the troubles of the "Big 3" automakers, based on some of the pay rates we saw in the news.

Some unions get very confrontational in their quest to seek more for their members, but when they get too extreme about it, they quite likely "win the battle but lose the war", in the long run.

Not sayin' that's true about all unions, but when you start viewing your employer as "the enemy", it's a very unhealthy situation.

 

[darkbeaver]

You wouldn't deny professional ball players business agents would you? How about medical associations which do exactly the same work for their members as the steam fitters union do for theirs. No you wouldn't but you would deny the commoner representation because you are supporters of the class system and the class that counts loves you because you keep their boot on the neck of your own kin and comrade for them, the inbred dirt bags at the top. Hey geniusus it is no coincidence that the standard of living of the west has deteriorated along with falling union membership. The money to float your grocery stores and your hardware stores and your vacation destinations came from labour. Now that you have gutted unions has the money trickled down or has it gushed up?

 

[JLM]

"Not sayin' that's true about all unions, but when you start viewing your employer as "the enemy", it's a very unhealthy situation."
Absolutely- encapsulates the whole situation beautifully.

 

[JLM]

You wouldn't deny professional ball players business agents would you? How about medical associations which do exactly the same work for their members as the steam fitters union do for theirs. No you wouldn't but you would deny the commoner representation because you are supporters of the class system and the class that counts loves you because you keep their boot on the neck of your own kin and comrade for them, the inbred dirt bags at the top. Hey geniusus it is no coincidence that the standard of living of the west has deteriorated along with falling union membership. The money to float your grocery stores and your hardware stores and your vacation destinations came from labour. Now that you have gutted unions has the money trickled down or has it gushed up?

I think what you'd be more likely denying is a bunch of unsuspecting workers who are just trying to keep their heads above water, supporting an overpriced 4th "level of government".

 

[gerryh]

hey Beav.... how much money do the unions rake in and how much of that is spent on Union executive?

 

[Johnnny]

the union exective is rich, this past cristmas there were gifts under the tree in pittsburg but none under the tree for the workers in sudbury.

 

[countryboy]

You wouldn't deny professional ball players business agents would you? How about medical associations which do exactly the same work for their members as the steam fitters union do for theirs. No you wouldn't but you would deny the commoner representation because you are supporters of the class system and the class that counts loves you because you keep their boot on the neck of your own kin and comrade for them, the inbred dirt bags at the top. Hey geniusus it is no coincidence that the standard of living of the west has deteriorated along with falling union membership. The money to float your grocery stores and your hardware stores and your vacation destinations came from labour. Now that you have gutted unions has the money trickled down or has it gushed up?

If you were responding to my post, I don't recall mentioning steam fitters or doctors or any other particular union (or association). Nor did I mention anything about "commoners", whatever that is supposed to mean.

However, I did mention "...but when you start viewing your employer as the enemy" and I think when you said "the inbred dirt bags at the top" - which I assume is a reference to management, it might be an indication that my observation had some truth to it.

I also used the word "extreme" when referring to these situations, and that's usually when trouble starts. Most companies (exception - crown corporations) operate in a "free market" environment, which usually means they have to compete with other companies and in fact, other countries. In order to remain competitive and sell things, they have to keep a reasonable balance in their pricing and costs.

And labour (employment) costs are a big hunk of the operating costs of most companies...in fact, the largest cost in many. If costs get pushed so high that they a) Can't sell their stuff, or b) Have to sell at a loss, they either get smaller or disappear.

Which doesn't do the union members much good in the long run.

All I'm saying is that things might work better if unions and management could share a common goal - which would be to make the company better and stronger, so that it could carry on and grow, and thus provide more jobs. That would take some spirit of compromise.

 

[Johnnny]

All I'm saying is that things might work better if unions and management could share a common goal - which would be to make the company better and stronger, so that it could carry on and grow, and thus provide more jobs. That would take some spirit of compromise

This is what is happening with Vale Inco and Locaql 6500, no respect from the Union Leader. They got cocky and think they could bend Vale over. Vale is a union breaker, and they doing just that at the cost of the lively hood of the strikers.

 

[Johnnny]

I agree also the union costs can be really steep to deal with. Vale Inco for example is contracting most of the geophysical exploration to non-union companies because it is cheaper. I know i did a survey for vale when i was working at snow lake manitoba.

 

[darkbeaver]

"Not sayin' that's true about all unions, but when you start viewing your employer as "the enemy", it's a very unhealthy situation."
Absolutely- encapsulates the whole situation beautifully.

Young man ,it's a hard world, and only a fool sells his time for less than the market will bare. Management is in permanent competition with it's employees for the value of their labour, this is a fact. Every dime he shaves off your wage he keeps for himself,but inevitably he finds that he has nothing but a cheap workforce that can not do the work. He discovers that he needs the candoers back he invariably seeks union with the government in the form of legislation and regulation. Collective bargaining is the civilized way of reaching agreement between parties in a contest for the fruits of labour. It is perfectly clear that you are either a seller of labour or a purchaser of labour. Of course there are very smart and honest business owners still in business and they know the best mix of management skills must include a non devalued workforce and it's based on long best practice that has produced the best of employees and the best run companies.

 

[gerryh]

you knew it was past time for Unions when they started raiding each others membership roles.

 

[countryboy]

Just to add some enrichment to the discussion, I guess I should mention that I am not in favour of strikes. Although there might have been a time when those things were effective, the employment laws have changed a lot over the years, and now I view a strike as being a failure of the union leaders to be able to negotiate. Or perhaps they're just reaching for unrealistic goals.

Kind of like starting a war because diplomacy didn't work, or perhaps you didn't want it to work in the first place. In this case, you'd be starting a war with your employer, which is bizarre. After all, they are the ones that write the paycheques.

Like I said before, if you're on the same side of the table as the employer ("How can we make the company work better for the benefit of all?"), chances are things are going to work better in the long run.

 

[GreenFish66]

"Everytime I climb the ladder some A holes comin down ?" - GreenFish66 on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads - " R U Happy? " ... (Another Thankless Self promotion ..It is what it is ..Raw and Free)

The problem with Common Labour Unions today is that Business can get out of any agreement ...The Unions work more for the company than the people they represent.. In the end redundant/irrelevant

It's always about give and take - Big Biz wants big Profit ..People want respect/acknowledgment /Job security /Fair pay ..

If you work in a Car Factory you should be able to own one of the cars you make...

Employers should include incentives/rewards /advancement / inclusion for Loyalty and a job well done.. Which in a JOB/Slave Shop is not usually the case...

To sustain a Good Canadian Life style a single person must make at least ..$14/hr ...Any less begins to corrode our system ..We must always find ways to move forward create new (Green/Clean Tech) ways of doing things..Innovation/Quality

If The Biz Respects the people who buy the stuff ..The People will be loyal and work hard because they feel like they are apart of it ...Not A part from it...

 

[darkbeaver]

If you were responding to my post, I don't recall mentioning steam fitters or doctors or any other particular union (or association). Nor did I mention anything about "commoners", whatever that is supposed to mean.

However, I did mention "...but when you start viewing your employer as the enemy" and I think when you said "the inbred dirt bags at the top" - which I assume is a reference to management, it might be an indication that my observation had some truth to it.

I also used the word "extreme" when referring to these situations, and that's usually when trouble starts. Most companies (exception - crown corporations) operate in a "free market" environment, which usually means they have to compete with other companies and in fact, other countries. In order to remain competitive and sell things, they have to keep a reasonable balance in their pricing and costs.

And labour (employment) costs are a big hunk of the operating costs of most companies...in fact, the largest cost in many. If costs get pushed so high that they a) Can't sell their stuff, or b) Have to sell at a loss, they either get smaller or disappear.

Which doesn't do the union members much good in the long run.

All I'm saying is that things might work better if unions and management could share a common goal - which would be to make the company better and stronger, so that it could carry on and grow, and thus provide more jobs. That would take some spirit of compromise.

Management are not the dirt bags at the top, follow the money to the dirt bags house high on the hill overlooking cardboard city. If the fruits of labour do not stay in your community and circulate, you have worked for little or nothing. There is no such thing as a free market, there never has been and there never will be. The word "free" indicates capitals freedom to breach borders and tariffs and deregulation and easing all other public interference to free exploitation of both resources and labour. The common goal between lower management and labour is making a living, the dirt bag at the top just wants to make a killing even if the employee has to be chained in bare feet to the forge or chained to the coal truck for sixteen a day.

 

[countryboy]

Young man ,it's a hard world, and only a fool sells his time for less than the market will bare. Management is in permanent competition with it's employees for the value of their labour, this is a fact. Every dime he shaves off your wage he keeps for himself,but inevitably he finds that he has nothing but a cheap workforce that can not do the work. He discovers that he needs the candoers back he invariably seeks union with the government in the form of legislation and regulation. Collective bargaining is the civilized way of reaching agreement between parties in a contest for the fruits of labour. It is perfectly clear that you are either a seller of labour or a purchaser of labour. Of course there are very smart and honest business owners still in business and they know the best mix of management skills must include a non devalued workforce and it's based on long best practice that has produced the best of employees and the best run companies.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me or JLM as "young man", but I for one will accept the compliment! :lol:

Just so you know, I'm neither a "seller of labour" or a "purchaser of labour." I've employed lots of people in the past (still do employ some in a modest sized business), but I've never looked at "labour" as a commodity like that.

I consider employees to be part of the team that made the company what it is. People are the lifeblood of any business, it's most valuable resource. They can make or break the company. They are live, thinking beings that are capable of doing great things when given a chance to do so. If a company provides a good place to work, an opportunity to earn a good living, and a chance for the employee to use his/her skills to better themselves and their company, then you have a base for a very successful operation.

Sometimes, unions get in the way of all that. I'm not saying that all of them have outlived their function, but some of them could use an attitude adjustment.

And yes, some companies need the same attitude adjustment, no question about it. Confrontation between employer and employee is not a good thing, no matter where it originates.