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France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Liberalman

#1Jun 22nd, 2009

France is at it again and this time they are going after Muslim women that cover their heads because of the demands of their religion.

Sarkozy is using women’s rights as an excuse to do this?

This is the religion and where will it stop will we start to tell Hindus not to wear their turbans because men shouldn’t be forced to do this?

Should we tell the Jewish men not to wear their yamaca?

Should we tell the Catholics not to wear their crosses?

In most religions women have always been subservient to men and only God himself can change this.

We have to remember that this country was founded on religious freedoms and when government tries to interfere with this then our forefathers true meaning of peace will be in vain.

Ron in Regina

Free Thinker

France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

I read this story too, earlier this morning. Seems I read a different story than
you....or at least the story I read had a very different slant on it.

You didn't post a Link, so I will: --

DurkaDurka

No Party Affiliation

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Good for France.

coldstream

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Frankly the Burka always gave me the creeps. It reminds me of how alien Islam is to Western Culture and mores. There is no reason we have to pander to the paraphenalia of cultures that consider the West infidels. There is no qestion that the most puritanical of Muslim countries, those who have rejected all Western influences and moderation are quite willing to impose strict Sharia Law and Islamic dress codes on all of its citizens, regardless of religion. In fact Islam and Christian societies might be irreconcilable. The fact that our society has lost its sense of being formed and dependent on Christianity has largely been lost to 'modernism'.. but it's still there.. and necessary for our sustenance.. and survival.

pegger

No Party Affiliation

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

I have no problem with Burka's. People can wear what they want.

HOWEVER - we should not have to change our practices in some cases such as:

1) to vote - you should have to demonstrate you are who you say you are - so you'll have to show your face.
2) same for driver's licenses
3) same for public pools, etc.. (ok - makes no sense for Burka's - but the whole "can't swim with men in the same pool" thing - too bad - then open a private pool, or don't swim at the public pool)

petros

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

What about Jewish women who cover their hair? How about catholic nuns? Them too? How about Hutterites? Slavs and their babooshkas too?

darkbeaver

Republican

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

Frankly the Burka always gave me the creeps. It reminds me of how alien Islam is to Western Culture and mores. There is no reason we have to pander to the paraphenalia of cultures that consider the West infidels. There is no qestion that the most puritanical of Muslim countries, those who have rejected all Western influences and moderation are quite willing to impose strict Sharia Law and Islamic dress codes on all of its citizens, regardless of religion. In fact Islam and Christian societies might be irreconcilable. The fact that our society has lost its sense of being formed and dependent on Christianity has largely been lost to 'modernism'.. but it's still there.. and necessary for our sustenance.. and survival.

If you carry the Christian Foundation thing to its logical conclusion, so called western civilization and so called western culture then you might want to logically assume that Christianity is suspect. A house rots from its foundations, in the case of the christianized west we know very well the shoddy construction and poor quality materials. For puritanical delivery of ethics the west has no peers. Your suggestion that we continue down this dead end path with new and improved christianity would be funny if it were not so tragic. There are manifold better spiritual practices which are far more reflective of the human condition available at this time. Christ was a good fellow but he sucked at planning and had no forsight, thanks for the mess god.

coldstream

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

If you carry the Christian Foundation thing to its logical conclusion, so called western civilization and so called western culture then you might want to logically assume that Christianity is suspect. A house rots from its foundations, in the case of the christianized west we know very well the shoddy construction and poor quality materials. For puritanical delivery of ethics the west has no peers. Your suggestion that we continue down this dead end path with new and improved christianity would be funny if it were not so tragic. There are manifold better spiritual practices which are far more reflective of the human condition available at this time. Christ was a good fellow but he sucked at planning and had no forsight, thanks for the mess god.

Well that's the rap on Christianity, not real Biblical or ecclisiastical Christianity. With Islam there is no such subtlety or interpretation.. no turning the other cheek, not casting the first stone.. no forgiveness, no agape (divine love). There is vengeance.. page after page in the Koran of stonings, whippings, beheadings, hangings, amputations.. for any slight to God or His law. In Christianity, God took all those afflictions on Himself. The difference is.. night and day.

Last edited by coldstream; Jun 22nd, 2009 at 03:00 PM..

Cannuck

No Party Affiliation

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

What about Jewish women who cover their hair? How about catholic nuns? Them too? How about Hutterites? Slavs and their babooshkas too?

The issue is about forcing women to wear them. If these people are forced to do it then it would be just as wrong. Another issue is identification. A woman could wear a babushka when her drivers license picture was taken and it could still be used as a reasonable source of identification.

Niflmir

Free Thinker

#10

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by pegger

I have no problem with Burka's. People can wear what they want.

HOWEVER - we should not have to change our practices in some cases such as:

1) to vote - you should have to demonstrate you are who you say you are - so you'll have to show your face.
2) same for driver's licenses
3) same for public pools, etc.. (ok - makes no sense for Burka's - but the whole "can't swim with men in the same pool" thing - too bad - then open a private pool, or don't swim at the public pool)

I have problems with burkas. I think people should be able to wear what they want.

Not so long ago (end of the 19th century) women were saying they didn't want to vote and that it was perfectly reasonable to be paid less for equal work. Accepting discrimination doesn't make it undiscriminatory.

darkbeaver

Republican

#11

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream

Well that's the rap on Christianity, not real Biblical or ecclisiastical Christianity. With Islam there is no such subtlety or interpretation.. no turning the other cheek, not casting the first stone.. no forgiveness, no agape (divine love). There is vengeance.. page after page in the Koran of stonings, whippings, beheadings, hangings, amputations.. for any slight to God. In Christianity, God took all those afflictions on Himself. The difference is.. night and day.

I know you think you see a difference but they are both just ever so slightly different parts of the same invention. Real christianity ended with the Holy Mother Church and bears not the slightest similarity to any extant christian sect. For the billions who died in agony and poverty and humiliation since christ bore our sins away, I forgive you.

darkbeaver

Republican

#12

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Sarkosy is a looser. He'll be wearing feathers and tar soon.

Ron in Regina

Free Thinker

#13

France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

Sarkosy is a looser. He'll be wearing feathers and tar soon.

This Guy?

coldstream

#14

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

I know you think you see a difference but they are both just ever so slightly different parts of the same invention. Real christianity ended with the Holy Mother Church and bears not the slightest similarity to any extant christian sect. For the billions who died in agony and poverty and humiliation since christ bore our sins away, I forgive you.

Well the 'Holy Mother Church' was established by Christ on the rock of Peter. There is no 'extant Christian sect' beyond it, and it is the indivisible, organic and mystical Body of Christ on Earth.

They are not 'slightly different parts' of the same invention but polar opposites, in the shade of good and evil.

And as Christ responded to Pilate's charge, "My Kingdom is not of this World". It is not for you to forgive, or to save, that too is of His Kingdom.

Last edited by coldstream; Jun 22nd, 2009 at 03:30 PM..

Cliffy

Free Thinker

#15

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Ah, believers are so thick. There were several christian sects when Constantine decided to put the bible together in his own image and create the Roman catholic church. He left out all the other christian writings of the time to suit his own political motivations (to keep the christians that followed Paul - Paulianity) from tearing his empire apart. He also translated the writings to suit himself so most of the none sense about Peter being the foundation of the church is as nonsensical as the rest. Even Constantine did not become a christian until his death bed. When are you going to stop believing in fairy tales?

coldstream

#16

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Ah, believers are so thick. There were several christian sects when Constantine decided to put the bible together in his own image and create the Roman catholic church. He left out all the other christian writings of the time to suit his own political motivations (to keep the christians that followed Paul - Paulianity) from tearing his empire apart. He also translated the writings to suit himself so most of the none sense about Peter being the foundation of the church is as nonsensical as the rest. Even Constantine did not become a christian until his death bed. When are you going to stop believing in fairy tales?

Constatine had nothing to do with 'putting the Bible together' other than assembling the Council of Nicea, under the auspices of the Magisterium of the Church (its Bishops, Curia, Pontiff and teaching authority) and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which eliminated heretical texts and codified Christian beliefs in the Nicean Creed, in a response to heresies of the time, notably Arianism, which rejected the Divinity of Christ.

Constantine was a Christian, but not baptised until he was on his deathbed. Paul is the seminal theologian, and evangalizer of the Church of Christ, ordained as such by God, after his encounter with Christ, and conversion from its arch persecutor, on the Road to Damascus.

He worked in concert with the Church in Jesualem under James to emancipate the Christian faith, and articulate its moral theology, which was subsequently and fully established under Peter in Rome. The heretical texts eliminated at Nicea fabricated a gnostic, indulgent, pagan based and completely antithetical construct of 'Christianity'.

When, Cliffy, are you going to stop putting your faith in idols and witchcraft.. that which forms the 'secular', liberal 'West'.

Last edited by coldstream; Jun 22nd, 2009 at 04:19 PM..

EagleSmack

#17

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Ah, believers are so thick. There were several christian sects when Constantine decided to put the bible together in his own image and create the Roman catholic church. He left out all the other christian writings of the time to suit his own political motivations (to keep the christians that followed Paul - Paulianity) from tearing his empire apart. He also translated the writings to suit himself so most of the none sense about Peter being the foundation of the church is as nonsensical as the rest. Even Constantine did not become a christian until his death bed. When are you going to stop believing in fairy tales?

Close but not quite.

Constantine told all of the Catholic sects to get together and decide what it is to be a Catholic.

Socrates the Greek

#18

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

The most antisocial form of clothing on women, any man who will demand his wife will never be seen in public with her face exposed is a demented cave man.

France is on the right track, we do no accept this form of attire in our country, wear it in your country that is your business here in France we do not accept that..

El Barto

#19

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

I say , "way to go"
Now add a selective screening for the rights to wear a "g" string

Polygong

#20

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

What I find interesting is that those who advocate the banning on burkas because they are demeaning to women never seem to advocate the banning of strip clubs.

Ron in Regina

Free Thinker

#21

France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the Greek

The most antisocial form of clothing on women, any man who will demand his wife will never be seen in public with her face exposed is a demented cave man.

France is on the right track, we do no accept this form of attire in our country, wear it in your country that is your business here in France we do not accept that..

Quote: Originally Posted by El Barto

I say , "way to go"
Now add a selective screening for the rights to wear a "g" string

I've seen (what I'd assume where women?) these things being worn
outside of a Superstore in Canada on a really hot day...and they where
Black cloth...not the Blue cloth. I felt pretty bad for these women at first,
but then I thought, what if the material is breezy, and they're completely
naked (except for sandals) under their tarp-like Burkas???

They could be naked & drinking a Slurpee under those things. Hmmm...

dumpthemonarchy

Free Thinker

#22

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

How come religious types are never forced to give evidence or prove that their religion exists? Simply believing something doesn't give it reality. Show me the g/God thing is real.

We have limits on what we can wear in public, we don't wear tutus to a local hockey arena, but if some people start, so what. I see religion and burkas against social cohesion, but as long as only a few wear them, I am okay with it. it does make me think that immigration should be cut from 250,000 a year to under 100,000 year as these divisive issues start to percolate up to the surface more frequently.

Machjo

#23

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

How come religious types are never forced to give evidence or prove that their religion exists? Simply believing something doesn't give it reality. Show me the g/God thing is real.

So why don't nationalist types ever forced to prove that a country is more than just an articicial boundary drawn on a map for collective ego expansion?

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

We have limits on what we can wear in public, we don't wear tutus to a local hockey arena, but if some people start, so what. I see religion and burkas against social cohesion, but as long as only a few wear them, I am okay with it.

Why are they any more against social cohesion than a feather hat and moccasins? Are we to ban those too?

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

it does make me think that immigration should be cut from 250,000 a year to under 100,000 year as these divisive issues start to percolate up to the surface more frequently.

Then you seem grossly misinformed of the situation there. About 20% of the French population is now Muslim, but most of it is not from immigration but rather from the former French department of Algeria. That's right. Prior to Algerian independence, Algeria was a fully integrated department of France, treated as an extension of France and so its citizens were French citizens. As French citizens, they were free to travel to the French mainland in Europe, not as immigrants (after all, they were born in Algeria which was essentially an extension of France, and so by being born in Algeria, they wre in fact born in France). This and not immigration is the main source of Islam in France today.

dumpthemonarchy

Free Thinker

#24

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

So why don't nationalist types ever forced to prove that a country is more than just an articicial boundary drawn on a map for collective ego expansion?

Set up a day and time for your g/God/dess to do something I can see and judge. I am a thinking person, this shouldn't be too hard to do.

Nations are real. France is real. Japan is real. Ethiopia is real. Languages are real. Borders are real, people make countries and they create huge amounts of evidence to enforce their existence. It is what people decide, and sure, boundaries can and do change but they are real where they are.

[/quote]Why are they any more against social cohesion than a feather hat and moccasins? Are we to ban those too?[/quote]

Every country has codes of behaviour for dress and socializing. You have to live in another country to find out what we do here if is often considered quaint or useless in another country. Numbers are important, if I see many women wear burkas I will protest much more strongly.

[/quote] Then you seem grossly misinformed of the situation there. About 20% of the French population is now Muslim, but most of it is not from immigration but rather from the former French department of Algeria. That's right. Prior to Algerian independence, Algeria was a fully integrated department of France, treated as an extension of France and so its citizens were French citizens. As French citizens, they were free to travel to the French mainland in Europe, not as immigrants (after all, they were born in Algeria which was essentially an extension of France, and so by being born in Algeria, they wre in fact born in France). This and not immigration is the main source of Islam in France today.[/quote]

Good for France. We are permitted to make rules and decide on immigration, it is not a holy subject that any dissent is considered racism. This furthers my idea people consider the federal gov't the new Roman Catholic Church and any dissent which used to be heresy is now bigotry. This limits intelligent discussion on an important topic of the day. You won't be censoring me.

Socrates the Greek

#25

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Some of these poor kids must have a problem recognizing their mothers, if they see their faces only 1/4 of their childhood time.
What an unfair world of spirituality.

pegger

No Party Affiliation

#26

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

And if the women WANT to wear them?

SirJosephPorter

No Party Affiliation

#27

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

This is the religion and where will it stop will we start to tell Hindus not to wear their turbans because men shouldn’t be forced to do this?

A small correction, Liberalman. It is the Sikhs who wear turbans, not the Hindus. Turbans are mandated by Sikh religion, not by Hindu religion.

SirJosephPorter

No Party Affiliation

#28

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

1)to vote - you should have to demonstrate you are who you say you are - so you'll have to show your face.

It is not that clearcut, pegger. I changed my opinion on this issue, I used to be of your opinion. However, currently when you go to vote, they don’t ask you for a proof of your identity (they don’t ask for your driver’s license or anything like that). Then why ask a Muslim woman to remover her veil and ask her to identify herself?

If the law is changed (and as far as I am aware, it hasn’t been yet), it should be non discriminatory everybody must produce the proof of identity, not only veiled Muslim women. Then you or I should be asked for our driver’s license, or passport etc. something to prove our identity.

pegger

No Party Affiliation

#29

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

1)to vote - you should have to demonstrate you are who you say you are - so you'll have to show your face.

It is not that clearcut, pegger. I changed my opinion on this issue, I used to be of your opinion. However, currently when you go to vote, they don’t ask you for a proof of your identity (they don’t ask for your driver’s license or anything like that). Then why ask a Muslim woman to remover her veil and ask her to identify herself?

If the law is changed (and as far as I am aware, it hasn’t been yet), it should be non discriminatory everybody must produce the proof of identity, not only veiled Muslim women. Then you or I should be asked for our driver’s license, or passport etc. something to prove our identity.

In the last federal election - I had to show my passport or my licence before I could vote. And I'm not a woman...or muslim....last time I checked, that is.

SirJosephPorter

No Party Affiliation

#30

Re: France Wants To Ban Full Head Covering On Muslim Women

Jun 22nd, 2009

I did read the article, and it is not clear to me what the French are trying to do. It said that in civil service they don’t permit any kind of religious sign, and it may make sense to ban the veil from the workplace.

However, ban burka in public? That would be a nutty law, how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to arrest a woman who is wearing burka? If that happens, then France would be no different from Saudi Arabia or Taliban (where a woman could be arrested for baring her ankle, not wearing a burka etc.).

These are difficult issues with no clear cut answer. Every effort should be made to accommodate the minorities, while at the same time, respecting the law and the constitution.

So I am withholding judgment on this one, I would like to see what kind of restrictions they are proposing.

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