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Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Liberalman

#1Jun 17th, 2009

David Miller mayor of Toronto wants landed immigrants have the right to vote and his reasoning is that they dedicated their lives to this city and are using all the city services and they should have a say about those services.

Poor Mayor Miller doesn’t get it that voting equates to power because power can create the ultimate change and that is why voting is a privilege only to those that made a legal commitment by keeping this country in their hearts in the federal, provincial and municipal level.

Can you imagine if the landed immigrant had the right to vote?

The incentive to apply for citizenship will disappear.

Canada’s identity would disappear because no need to learn the history of this great country.

Landed immigrants would eventually have the right to run for government positions and they would eventually change the laws to suite their needs.

Landed immigrants have it way better than when my parents were landed immigrants.

My parents never got golden handshake when they came to the shores of Canada.

No free healthcare
No free housing
No welfare

When they reached the shores of Canada they were told, “work or starve or go back home.”

My parents worked hard for five years (in those days it was five years) until they got their Canadian Citizenship.

Then we started a new family tradition every time an election we discussed the people that was running around the dinner table and on Election Day we voted because of our right as Canadian Citizenship.

Toronto’s Mayor Miller just doesn’t understand and since he is an NDPer I only have to presume that the New Democrats want to take away more rights from Canadians.

This is why I feel Mayor Miller of Toronto is wrong.

lone wolf

Free Thinker

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

It's too bad you don't post links because your credibility vanished in your propaganda headlines. IE: Great Lakes....

EagleSmack

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

It's too bad you don't post links because your credibility vanished in your propaganda headlines. IE: Great Lakes....

He's right about the Great Lakes Wolf...the US is draining the Canadian sides of the Great Lakes.

DurkaDurka

No Party Affiliation

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Miller can champion this cause all he wants but unless he can convince the provincial government to modify the municipal act, he's going nowhere.

Machjo

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack

He's right about the Great Lakes Wolf...the US is draining the Canadian sides of the Great Lakes.

Using a nuclear-powered water-pump defended by an underwater nuclear weapons system, don't forget.

Machjo

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

And to the OP; define Canada. I love the people, but tend to view national boundaries as nothing more than an artificial line on the map delineating administrative divisions. Looking at it that way, there could be an argument for voting-rights being granted according to place of residence as opposed to citizenship. For instance, if you're born in Victoria BC and move to Montreal, Quebec, you gain the right to vote in Montreal and Quebec election, and forfeit your right to vote in Victoria and BC elections. I could see something similar whereby a Canadian residing in the US would forfeit his right to vote in Canadian elections but gain the right to do so in US elections; same with an American residing in Canada. It would essentially be a logical extension to what happens when you move from one province to another.

SirJosephPorter

No Party Affiliation

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka

Miller can champion this cause all he wants but unless he can convince the provincial government to modify the municipal act, he's going nowhere.

I don’t know about that. Does Toronto have the right to decide who can vote in local elections? Or does only the provincial or federal government have that power? I am not sure what the law is in this respect.

The reason I wonder is that private groups can decide for themselves who is eligible to vote in their group. The group can decide that only those above 30 years old may vote, only the men may vote etc.

Now admittedly Toronto is not a private club. What that means is that they may not prevent anybody eligible from voting, if he is eligible to vote. But can they give non citizens the right to vote (only the in local election of course)? I don’t know.

Niflmir

Free Thinker

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

As implied in a thread I started previous to this, it would be currently hypocritical not to let them vote.

karrie

No Party Affiliation

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir

As implied in a thread I started previous to this, it would be currently hypocritical not to let them vote.

No, they are not being hypocritical. They are stating in both cases that if you choose to live apart from or out of touch of, the citizenry of the country, then you will not be allowed to vote on the matters that effect those who ARE residing citizens. Nothing hypocritical about it.

Niflmir

Free Thinker

#10

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

No, they are not being hypocritical. They are stating in both cases that if you choose to live apart from or out of touch of, the citizenry of the country, then you will not be allowed to vote on the matters that effect those who ARE residing citizens. Nothing hypocritical about it.

Except that they are living with and in touch with the citizenry, therefore you have no argument.

captain morgan

Bloc Québécois

#11

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Employing that logic, if the non-resident in question is 'in touch' with the citizenry in other nations, does that give them a valid argument in voting in those nations' elections?

lone wolf

Free Thinker

#12

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Why can't we have our cake and eat it too? Reality just doesn't work that way ... and there's something so wrong in using flags of convenience.

Niflmir

Free Thinker

#13

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan

Employing that logic, if the non-resident in question is 'in touch' with the citizenry in other nations, does that give them a valid argument in voting in those nations' elections?

If you posit that being in touch is all that is necessary, yes, it does.

I desire that being informed be made a requirement, but alas nobody seems to agree that it is important to be informed.

karrie

No Party Affiliation

#14

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir

Except that they are living with and in touch with the citizenry, therefore you have no argument.

No, they have chosen to set themselves apart by not becoming citizens. Thus I have quite a valid argument.

captain morgan

Bloc Québécois

#15

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir

If you posit that being in touch is all that is necessary, yes, it does.

I desire that being informed be made a requirement, but alas nobody seems to agree that it is important to be informed.

How does one objectively and fairly measure this?.. It could easily morph into an extremely complex endeavor.

lone wolf

Free Thinker

#16

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir

If you posit that being in touch is all that is necessary, yes, it does.

I desire that being informed be made a requirement, but alas nobody seems to agree that it is important to be informed.

"Being informed" would effectively eliminate the majority of voters. Campaign promises are window dressing designed to lure the letter "X".

I'm informed.....

taxslave

No Party Affiliation

#17

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 17th, 2009

I can't imagine how Miller came up with such a hair brained scheme. This is as stupid as permitting Sharia law in Canada. One must be a citizen to vote. Either there is something bad in the water in Toronto or he is really desperate to keep the paycheques rolling in. I also think that any citizen that is out of the country for more than a year should loose their right to vote, nor should any prisoner serving over two years be allowed to vote.

pegger

No Party Affiliation

#18

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

Using a nuclear-powered water-pump defended by an underwater nuclear weapons system, don't forget.

In the East - In the dark!!!!

pegger

No Party Affiliation

#19

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Seriously though - landed immigrants should not have the right to vote in Canadian elections (of any sort). That is part of the privilege of being a citizen.

Become a citizen - then you can vote. And I have family members that are considered "landed immigrants" and have lived here for 40+ years, with no intention of becoming citizens.

They should pay their Canadian taxes - but should not get to vote.

Machjo

#20

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

If we base voting rights on citizenship though, and insist that non-citizens residing in Canada can't vote, then citizens living outside of Canada shuld be allowed to vote. Essentially democracy dictates that we all need a right to vote somewhere. If let's say that all countries said that non-citizens residing in their countries couldn't vote, and at the same time citizens living abroad can't vote either, then suddenly all ex-pats can vote nowhere.

Certainly we should all have a right to vote somewhere. If we base the right to vote on residency, then it's reasonable to say all residents can vote, and all non-residents can't, regardless of citizenship.

If we base it on citizenship, then it's reasonable to say all citizens can vote and all non-citizens can't, regardless of residence. But we must have a consistent standard. We can't base it on citizenship for one group and on residency for another.

Personally, I'd lean in favour of basing the right to vote on residency, not citizenship. but either way, we must be consistent if we believe in justice.

Machjo

#21

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Another point, foreign residents working in Canada do in fact pay their taxes to Canada, while many citizens working abroad don't. that's another reason I think it should be based on residency, not citizenship.

petros

#22

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Quote:

then citizens living outside of Canada shuld be allowed to vote.

Ever heard of mail in?

YukonJack

Conservative

#23

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

I landed April 26th, 1957.

Became citizen in July 5th, 1962.

Before that I never thought to vote, after that I never missed a vote.

That is the way is should be.

petros

#24

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

Another point, foreign residents working in Canada do in fact pay their taxes to Canada, while many citizens working abroad don't. that's another reason I think it should be based on residency, not citizenship.

Nope. Read NAFTA.

Ron in Regina

Free Thinker

#25

Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

I may not understand this properly, but this is what I understand so far:

1) A Canadian working/living out of Canada can still vote for up to 5yrs,
then loses that privilege/right.
2) A new immigrant to Canada, once they become a Landed Immigrant,
can apply for Citizenship in 5yrs, and with citizenship has the right to vote.

Am I up to speed with the two above points? With the 5yr time frame window
working on both sides of this issue?

DurkaDurka

No Party Affiliation

#26

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Citizens living outside of Canada can vote provided they have been out of the country for less then five years.

If one wishes to vote in the country they live in, an expectation that they be citizens really isn't unfair.

--

"If you are an elector (a person who is eligible to vote) and have been living away from Canada for less than five consecutive years since your departure from Canada, you are eligible to vote under the --. You can register to --."

DurkaDurka

No Party Affiliation

#27

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

Another point, foreign residents working in Canada do in fact pay their taxes to Canada, while many citizens working abroad don't. that's another reason I think it should be based on residency, not citizenship.

So paying taxes should automatically allow you to vote? I don't think so. Paying your taxes is one small part of your civic responsibilities.

petros

#28

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

You need to look into what a citizen is and the aspects involved in transfer of "title" through the banking and registry systems. I'm surprised it is as long as 5 years considering that the "value" of a person to a nation is pretty huge $$$.

pegger

No Party Affiliation

#29

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Again - my mind - you need to be a citizen - and pay your taxes (to or in Canada) - then you can vote.

Machjo

#30

Re: Non-Citizens Right To Vote

Jun 18th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by pegger

Again - my mind - you need to be a citizen - and pay your taxes (to or in Canada) - then you can vote.

So waht about a citizen on social assistance or receiving disability insurance, etc.

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