Loss of right to vote for Canadians abroad


Niflmir
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#1
It occurs after five years living abroad as mentioned in the --. This does not occur if you are working for the government or an international orgainization and occurs if you want to come back to Canada or not.

The problem being, after 5 years, you will essentially be a citizen of nowhere. A Canadian in passport alone, with no right to have your voice heard by democracy anywhere in the world.

Is it acceptable to cast our citizens away like this? After 1 and 1 quarter of a government's term? If it is acceptable then shouldn't we, by symmetry, be forced to allow permanent residents of 5 years the right to vote?
 
lone wolf
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#2
Nobody ever said the Elections Act was fair. My Grand dad lost his right to vote in 1972 because he was a Brit - even after signing on Sept 11 1941 and doing his part for King, country and Canada in Sicily and Italy. He wasn't a Canadian citizen in all those years before.
 
Niflmir
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#3
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

Nobody ever said the Elections Act was fair.

It is legislation in an ostensibly democratic society, so if considered unfair, it can be changed. Therefore, this thread.
 
wulfie68
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#4
If one doesn't reside in the country, or pay taxes to the country how do they contribute to the society? This may be seen as inflammatory by some but its meant as an honest question.
 
Niflmir
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#5
Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68View Post

If one doesn't reside in the country, or pay taxes to the country how do they contribute to the society? This may be seen as inflammatory by some but its meant as an honest question.

But that leads into the second question I posed: if a person resides there and pays taxes (the permanent resident) shouldn't they then be allowed to vote?

If the argument against allowing a person to vote goes like that, then the same argument implies that we should let permanent residents vote.
 
lone wolf
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#6
The nix on Grand dad was: "You're not a citizen".... and he was bored to death through a "phoney war" in Britain (except for a leave in France that turned out to be REAL exciting) and fought like Hell through a real one in Italy with the 48th Highlanders of CANADA.
 
wulfie68
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#7
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

But that leads into the second question I posed: if a person resides there and pays taxes (the permanent resident) shouldn't they then be allowed to vote?

If the argument against allowing a person to vote goes like that, then the same argument implies that we should let permanent residents vote.

Sure, if they are willing to take that final step and become a citizen. Its ultimately up to an individual a) where they choose to reside and b) if they want to be a fully participating member. Conversely if you decide to reside somewhere else and support a different society, why should your old country be obligated to you?
 
karrie
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#8
Sorry Niflmir, but, I disagree. Having people vote who don't pay taxes here, should have limits. If you want badly enough to have a say in the country, you should be in the country. The fact that your rights in that respect last for five years seems ample to me.
 
china
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#9
Quote:

Sorry Niflmir, but, I disagree. Having people vote who don't pay taxes here, should have limits. If you want badly enough to have a say in the country, you should be in the country. The fact that your rights in that respect last for five years seems ample to me.

-Convicts are in a country ,can they / do they vote ?
-do they pay taxes ?......on what ?... or should I say .."do they contribute to the society "?
-some are convicts for more than 5 ys.
 
Dexter Sinister
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#10
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

-Convicts are in a country ,can they / do they vote ?

Yes, in Canada they can, and do.
Quote:

-do they pay taxes ?......on what ?

Yes, if they have an income they'll pay taxes on it.

Voting is one of the most basic and important rights of citizenship and I cannot agree that there are any circumstances under which a government can legitimately deprive a citizen of that right.
 
wulfie68
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#11
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post



-Convicts are in a country ,can they / do they vote ?
-do they pay taxes ?......on what ?... or should I say .."do they contribute to the society "?
-some are convicts for more than 5 ys.

I don't think they should be allowed to vote either, but for different reasoning: they have violated society's laws and usually that means they have infringed in some fashion on the rights of others. I think it is only fitting that their right to influence society be curtailed until they have completed their sentence in full.
 
karrie
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#12
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post



-Convicts are in a country ,can they / do they vote ?
-do they pay taxes ?......on what ?... or should I say .."do they contribute to the society "?
-some are convicts for more than 5 ys.

I don't agree with giving convicts the right to vote for our government either.
 
china
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#13
Dexter Sinister ,
Quoting china
Quote:

-Convicts are in a country ,can they / do they vote ?
Yes, in Canada they can, and do.

Would you vote for an ex -cone if he was running for a position of ....say a Police Chief or an MP or a kinder garden principal ?
Just wondering ....as usual ..

 
lone wolf
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#14
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post



Would you vote for an ex -cone if he was running for a position of ....say a Police Chief or an MP or a kinder garden principal ?
Just wondering ....as usual ..

My, but you HAVE been out of the country a while haven't you? There is a fair bit of difference between VOTING and RUNNING for office. An EX-con has every right to VOTE. For the record, while incarcerated, a person should not have the right.
 
Ron in Regina
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#15
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

Dexter Sinister ,


Quoting china

Would you vote for an ex -cone if he was running for a position of ....say a Police Chief or an MP or a kinder garden principal ?
Just wondering ....as usual ..


-- I can't vote for this guy 'cuz I'm not
in his riding...but he's most likely less of a criminal than the people I can vote for
in the riding that I reside in....
 
Niflmir
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#16
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Sorry Niflmir, but, I disagree. Having people vote who don't pay taxes here, should have limits. If you want badly enough to have a say in the country, you should be in the country. The fact that your rights in that respect last for five years seems ample to me.

But see, I haven't formed an opinion, I have implied a dichotomy, so you cannot really disagree with me. Answering the one question and ignoring the other isn't really fair.

Now, I reside outside of Canada, it is true. And I am more up to date on many issues in Canadian national politics than many Canadians who live in Canada. I am on this site because my interests are chiefly Canadian and I plan to come back to the country some day. I maintain economic connections with Canada and in fact do pay taxes. I experience the world with a mindset that compares things to Canadian ways of doing things. If people think that all of this doesn't entitle me to a say in the affairs of my nation, and Canada is my nation, then so be it, but there is a hypocricy in the laws.

How can one deny that I should have some democratic say in the affairs of the world? If not in Canada, then in my current nation of residence.

This is the dichotomy:

Why should my only options be to become German or to move back to Canada? Is this really the message we want to be sending? How is it not hypocritical to deny the right to vote for citizens based on residency outside of Canada and not grant it to permanent residents living in Canada for the same time period? If the citizenship doesn't matter in the one case, then how can it matter in the other?

In this case, what does citizenship become except the right to vote for residents? Since a resident could be Canadian in everything culturally but citizenship. If so, then what a meaningless thing it means to be a Canadian citizen.
 
Machjo
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#17
I could actually agree with losing the right to vote while residing abroad, as long as the policy is consistent (i.e. is the right to vote based on residency or citizenship?). Personally, I think residency makes more sense, because we're normally affected more by our local environment wherever we happen to live at any given moment than the land of our citizenship regardless of where we are living at any given point in time.
 
karrie
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#18
You're quite right Niflmir, I jumped to a conclusion about where your questions were leading the reader, and, I didn't answer both in this thread, but I did discuss it where you brought it up elsewhere.

To boil it down to its simplest form... you are either a citizen impacted by the decisions of the vote, or you are not.

People who live here and choose not to take status, while you are right, they are impacted, have chosen not to be actual citizens. That is their choice. Conversely, people living abroad have chosen not to live here, not to be impacted by the decisions made by their vote.

I don't see it as throwing citizens away... they are still citizens and regain every right to vote when and if they return. But it is acknowledging that people can't choose the geography, or the passport, as convenience items and hold sway over the vote of those who are present citizens.
 
china
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#19
lone wolf
Quote:

My, but you HAVE been out of the country a while haven't you?

Not long enough , lw .

Quote:

There is a fair bit of difference between VOTING and RUNNING for office.

Obviously I realize that ,though you seam to have trouble finding (mentally)" reasons I,m using this type of questioning in my post .
What I,m saying is: would a person who feels that a rapist , a murderer , a kidnapper has a right to vote (while in prison)? Would that person vote for "any of the above " after they were released and have done their time?
Last edited by china; Jun 17th, 2009 at 10:01 PM..
 
lone wolf
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#20
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

lone wolf
Not long enough , lw .

Obviously I realize that ,though you seam to have trouble finding (mentally)" reasons I,m using this type of questioning in my post .

It's not obvious you realize that. Why don't you try to explain without the typically China ignorance?

Vote.... Run for office.... You really need to screw your head on tighter.


...or is it just the fight you want. In that case .... Cage it!
 
lone wolf
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#21
BTW ... it shows you edited....
 
china
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#22
Quote:

Vote.... Run for office.... You really need to screw your head on tighter.

Ok ,i'll bite .

vote --a choice between 2 or more candidates or whatever. A prisoner can vote , right?
Now , a prisoner who is released can "run for an office ".Would you vote for that ex con? ...that's my question.

Cage ? Fight ?..................come to China and when you'll see me , you'll start calling me Sir ,right away , puppy .
 
wulfie68
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#23
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

This is the dichotomy:

Why should my only options be to become German or to move back to Canada?

This question is really the crux of the issue. The answer is how can there be any other options? There can't be without complicating far too many issues ranging from jurisdiction on legal matters, to financial liabilities etc. Its a fact of life that some countries offer different levels of service (and protection) to their citizens, thus there needs to be a clear dilineation on where the responsibility begins and ends to both the individual and the country.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Is this really the message we want to be sending?

its not so much a message as a standardization in dealing with people so they can all be dealt with fairly.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

How is it not hypocritical to deny the right to vote for citizens based on residency outside of Canada and not grant it to permanent residents living in Canada for the same time period?

Citizenship has obligations as well as rights entitlements and priviledges. It is up to a person to decide whether or not they want to become a citizen and support a given country. If they choose to reside there and not undertake the full obligations of citizenship then they should not be granted the full rights of it.


Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

If the citizenship doesn't matter in the one case, then how can it matter in the other?

It should in both cases.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

In this case, what does citizenship become except the right to vote for residents? Since a resident could be Canadian in everything culturally but citizenship. If so, then what a meaningless thing it means to be a Canadian citizen.

There are other rights and priviledges that go along with being a citizen of Canada or any other country. You can look at the constitution for a complete run down.
 
taxslave
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#24
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Sorry Niflmir, but, I disagree. Having people vote who don't pay taxes here, should have limits. If you want badly enough to have a say in the country, you should be in the country. The fact that your rights in that respect last for five years seems ample to me.

I think this is especially true for citizens of convenience like all the Lebonese that we air lifted to Canada a couple of years ago. The there are the Liberals who are so desperate that they voted in a leader who hadn't lived here for 30 years.
 
gaiter83
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I think this is especially true for citizens of convenience like all the Lebonese that we air lifted to Canada a couple of years ago. The there are the Liberals who are so desperate that they voted in a leader who hadn't lived here for 30 years.

Do you think it is fair for someone who's ancestors have been in Canada since the 1640s and only found out about this law after being abroad for 6 years? It's not like they tell you when relocating that you are going to lose the right to vote, etc. Also, if you live/work in the U.S., you are not considered an immigrant and don't require a visa... I think I was considered a "legal non-immigrant resident alien", lol.

I was in the states for over 6 years and now live in The Netherlands... I still consider myself Canadian and always will.
 
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