#1Jan 26th, 2009
The Reform Party was a response to the PC's turning into another Liberal party. Looks like the Conservatives are repeating history. Time for a real conservative party.
No conservative party
#2
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
That's a nice idea, but if you pay any attention to election results, you'll see that most Canadians don't want, and won't support, a right wing party. They want a slightly-right-of-centre party, ie, what the old PC party was.
Conservative
#3
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
Look, I was with Reform from very early on, and here in the great down-east, I was a very odd duck 
.
The problem is two-fold........
First of all a right wing party splits the Conservative vote, thus enabling the Liberals to rule as if blessed by a higher power, majority after majority, without even having to break 40% of the popular vote.
Secondly, what you are asking for is a principled party, one of honesty, ideology, forthrightfulness.....in other words, one absolutely guaranteed never to form government. If you have principles you do not follow the fad, you are not afraid to speak clearly, or to do unpopular things.......and you therefore alienate those who think differently, are not "on the bandwagon", and you never form government. Especially in a nation with as diverse a population as Canada.
Why do you think the Liberals are so successful?
They have never met a principle, and wouldn't know one if they did.
Unfortunately, and you don't know how much I regret this, the CPC is as good as we are going to get.
I learned my lesson.
.The problem is two-fold........
First of all a right wing party splits the Conservative vote, thus enabling the Liberals to rule as if blessed by a higher power, majority after majority, without even having to break 40% of the popular vote.
Secondly, what you are asking for is a principled party, one of honesty, ideology, forthrightfulness.....in other words, one absolutely guaranteed never to form government. If you have principles you do not follow the fad, you are not afraid to speak clearly, or to do unpopular things.......and you therefore alienate those who think differently, are not "on the bandwagon", and you never form government. Especially in a nation with as diverse a population as Canada.
Why do you think the Liberals are so successful?
They have never met a principle, and wouldn't know one if they did.
Unfortunately, and you don't know how much I regret this, the CPC is as good as we are going to get.
I learned my lesson.
Free Thinker
#4
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
Look, I was with Reform from very early on, and here in the great down-east, I was a very odd duck 
.
Colpy,
You was!??
.Colpy,
You was!??
Free Thinker
#5
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
No Conservative party? I won't see that in this lifetime....
Free Thinker
#6
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy
Look, I was with Reform from very early on, and here in the great down-east, I was a very odd duck
The problem is two-fold........
First of all a right wing party splits the Conservative vote, thus enabling the Liberals to rule as if blessed by a higher power, majority after majority, without even having to break 40% of the popular vote.
Secondly, what you are asking for is a principled party, one of honesty, ideology, forthrightfulness.....in other words, one absolutely guaranteed never to form government. If you have principles you do not follow the fad, you are not afraid to speak clearly, or to do unpopular things.......and you therefore alienate those who think differently, are not "on the bandwagon", and you never form government. Especially in a nation with as diverse a population as Canada.
Why do you think the Liberals are so successful?
They have never met a principle, and wouldn't know one if they did.
Unfortunately, and you don't know how much I regret this, the CPC is as good as we are going to get.
I learned my lesson.
Secondly, what you are asking for is a principled party, one of honesty, ideology, forthrightfulness
Canada currently does not have a party (other than the Bloc) that actually does what they promise to do.
Nobody wants a return to the far right wing fringe policies of the Reform, nor do they want the "decision of the day" policy of the current conswervities.
The party that wins is the one that appeals to their base, plus the 10% that are on the other side of centre. Hence the preponderance of Liberal gov'ts in Canada. they are the closest to "centre"
#7
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr
I, and millions of like-minded Canadians do. Check how many voted Reform if you don't believe me.Nobody wants a return to the far right wing fringe policies of the Reform,
Conservative
#8
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
And, I might ask, to exactly which "far-right fringe policies of the Reform" do you refer?
I simply don't remember any policies that would fit that description.......and I was a party member.
Perhaps you could enlighten me........
I simply don't remember any policies that would fit that description.......and I was a party member.
Perhaps you could enlighten me........
#9
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
Geeze, I know we hacked on Harper and the neocons pretty hard but after Dubya pulled it out, I didn't expect he would just bend over in front of Iggy and get all Liberal on us. 
No Party Affiliation
#10
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr
Even that's debatable as the Bloc has never been in the position where they have had to put up or shut up. I think when push comes to shove and the choice is between sucking on Canada's teat and making your own way, the teat is just too satisfying.Canada currently does not have a party (other than the Bloc) that actually does what they promise to do.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr
Return???? I must of been napping when the Reform came to power.Nobody wants a return to the far right wing fringe policies of the Reform,
Free Thinker
#11
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Walter
Since they haven't run a candidate in the last 4 Federal elections, What do you base your stsement "millions of like-minded Canadians do." on? Was there a "super secret" ballot that nobody knew happened?I, and millions of like-minded Canadians do. Check how many voted Reform if you don't believe me.
They "did" get 2.5 million votes nearly 12 yrs ago whwn Chretian steamrolled over them, but so what? It was nearly 12 yrs ago
Free Thinker
#12
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy
And, I might ask, to exactly which "far-right fringe policies of the Reform" do you refer?
I simply don't remember any policies that would fit that description.......and I was a party member.
Perhaps you could enlighten me........
Abortion
The Reform Party took a strong pro-life stance on the issue of abortion rights, calling for abortion to be made illegal.
Gay and lesbian rights
The Reform Party strongly opposed extending rights to gays and lesbians such as the right to marriage. Many Reformers saw homosexuality as a moral wrong. Reform leader Preston Manning himself once publicly stated that "homosexuality is destructive to the individual, and in the long run, society".
The Reform Party declared its opposition to existing government-funded and sponsored bilingualism and multiculturalism Reformers claimed that efforts to create a bilingual country had not worked and that language policy should be a provincial issue.
Conservative
#13
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Tyr
In the first instance, abortion, you are only partially correct. The Reform Party called for an abortion law restricting abortion after a certain time in the pregnancy.........this is the norm in the world. In fact, you would have trouble finding many nations without any abortion law, like Canada. That stance is, therefore, hardly "right-wing fringe" as in conforms to the norm in western societies.....and matches the opinion of at least 40% of Canadians. Au Contraire, the extremeist position is no law at all.....Abortion
The Reform Party took a strong pro-life stance on the issue of abortion rights, calling for abortion to be made illegal.
Gay and lesbian rights
The Reform Party strongly opposed extending rights to gays and lesbians such as the right to marriage. Many Reformers saw homosexuality as a moral wrong. Reform leader Preston Manning himself once publicly stated that "homosexuality is destructive to the individual, and in the long run, society".
The Reform Party declared its opposition to existing government-funded and sponsored bilingualism and multiculturalism Reformers claimed that efforts to create a bilingual country had not worked and that language policy should be a provincial issue.
As for homosexuality, once again you would find Canadians close to evenly divided on the issue of gay marriage.....and Tommy Douglas believed homosexuality was a mental disease. Hardly a "right-wing fringe" position
As for government-funded multi-culturalism, well, that may fairly be called a right wing position......not a fringe right wing position as, once again, a very substantial portion of Canadians would agree that gov't sponsored multiculturalism is idiotic, wasteful, counter-productive, and detrimental to the welfare of our country. Full stop.
You seem to think that anything you happen to disagree with, any idea that doesn't fit in with the Holy Bible of Accepted Lefty Truths is a "right-wing fringe" idea.
How intellectually arrogant of you!
And how incorrect you are....
You SO went to Carleton.
Free Thinker
#14
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
Our lack of legislation on abortion is frightening. Unless one trusts that all doctors will somehow do the right thing. Aborting a day before 9 months seems dreadfully wrong, but you soon end up with the paradox of the heap. At the opposite side of the spectrum, I kill more cells when I spit my toothpaste out than exist in the blastula stage. Its certainly not cut and dry. What was the time frame the reformers were calling for?
As for the reform party in general, they were before I was able to vote, all I remember was them constantly being represented as aligned to the fundmentalist views. Which isn't enough to make a platform on, and polarizes people in the worst possible way. I don't know if they deserved that mantle, but it didn't do them any favors possessing it, apparently.
As for the reform party in general, they were before I was able to vote, all I remember was them constantly being represented as aligned to the fundmentalist views. Which isn't enough to make a platform on, and polarizes people in the worst possible way. I don't know if they deserved that mantle, but it didn't do them any favors possessing it, apparently.
#15
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
Harper isn't a conservative in the Canadian sense. He's a neocon, in the mold of George Bush and John Howard. It about time real Canadian Conservatives reclaimed their party and booted the idiot out.
I miss the good old days when being conservative was about greed, making poor people poorer, wealthy people wealthier and tossing the mentally ill people out on the streets like Harris did during the common sense. Now its about death and destruction.
I miss the good old days when being conservative was about greed, making poor people poorer, wealthy people wealthier and tossing the mentally ill people out on the streets like Harris did during the common sense. Now its about death and destruction.
No Party Affiliation
#16
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir
As an NDPer I assume you meant the "left thing"Unless one trusts that all doctors will somehow do the "right thing".
Free Thinker
#17
Re: No conservative party
Jan 26th, 2009
I'm hoping "the coalition" votes with Harper's budget. Recession PM's and Premiers always catch the blame so this will be needle-nose's last term....
#18
Re: No conservative party
Jan 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one
It was actually Rae who did this.tossing the mentally ill people out on the streets like Harris did during the common sense.
Free Thinker
#19
Re: No conservative party
Jan 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Walter
May 31/99: Vote strategically to save mental health servicesIt was actually Rae who did this.
Now ... yours?
No Party Affiliation
#20
Re: No conservative party
Jan 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Walter
....and not a peep from the Libs and cons.It was actually Rae who did this.
That move received all party support and hasn't been reversed since by the cons or Libs.
The mentally ill roaming the streets in the cold is the fault of all of them.
No Party Affiliation
#21
Re: No conservative party
Jan 27th, 2009
The Reform Party called for an abortion law restricting abortion after a certain time in the pregnancy.........this is the norm in the world. In fact, you would have trouble finding many nations without any abortion law, like Canada. Colpy
Our lack of legislation on abortion is frightening. Unless one trusts that all doctors will somehow do the right thing. Niflmir
It is true that we have no law regulating abortion, but there is nothing frightening about this. Doctors themselves do a good job of regulating themselves. Indeed, it is impossible to get an abortion in Canada after 23 or 24 weeks of pregnancy, unless there are serious complications to mother’s health. If a woman wants a late term abortion, she has to go to New York or Massachusetts.
So the self policing by doctors is working very well, there is no need to try to pass a law restricting late term abortions. Opening up the issue of abortion will lead to a bitter, divisive debate, perhaps lasting several decades (like it does in USA). We don’t want the cultural wars of USA repeated here in Canada. Indeed, any politician who digs up the settled, buried issue of abortion will be committing political suicide. Harper knows this, so he has wisely not touched the issue of abortion.
Currently the non law is working very well, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Our lack of legislation on abortion is frightening. Unless one trusts that all doctors will somehow do the right thing. Niflmir
It is true that we have no law regulating abortion, but there is nothing frightening about this. Doctors themselves do a good job of regulating themselves. Indeed, it is impossible to get an abortion in Canada after 23 or 24 weeks of pregnancy, unless there are serious complications to mother’s health. If a woman wants a late term abortion, she has to go to New York or Massachusetts.
So the self policing by doctors is working very well, there is no need to try to pass a law restricting late term abortions. Opening up the issue of abortion will lead to a bitter, divisive debate, perhaps lasting several decades (like it does in USA). We don’t want the cultural wars of USA repeated here in Canada. Indeed, any politician who digs up the settled, buried issue of abortion will be committing political suicide. Harper knows this, so he has wisely not touched the issue of abortion.
Currently the non law is working very well, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
No Party Affiliation
#22
Re: No conservative party
Jan 27th, 2009
As for homosexuality, once again you would find Canadians close to evenly divided on the issue of gay marriage.....and Tommy Douglas believed homosexuality was a mental disease. Hardly a "right-wing fringe" position
Colpy, Canadians are far from closely divided on the issue. The last poll I saw on the issue of same sex marriage was more than a year ago. In that poll, 69% Canadians supported SSM, hardly a close issue.
When the courts handed down their decision, the country was divided 50:50. However, after Parliament took up the issue, there has been a steady movement towards SSM, and the last poll showed Canadians supporting SSM by a big margin (69%). So like abortion, SSM is also a settled issue, dead and buried. A politician would dig it up at his own peril.
As to Tommy Douglas, he was a progressive for his times. However, at that time, Psychiatry regarded homosexuality as a mental disorder. That was the accepted view in those days. But things have moved on since then. We know a lot more about homosexuality; it is not regarded as a mental disorder any more, but just an alternate lifestyle. A progressive (like Tommy Douglas) in the old days is regarded as a conservative today.
To regard homosexuality as a mental disorder today would indeed be a far right, fringe position.
Colpy, Canadians are far from closely divided on the issue. The last poll I saw on the issue of same sex marriage was more than a year ago. In that poll, 69% Canadians supported SSM, hardly a close issue.
When the courts handed down their decision, the country was divided 50:50. However, after Parliament took up the issue, there has been a steady movement towards SSM, and the last poll showed Canadians supporting SSM by a big margin (69%). So like abortion, SSM is also a settled issue, dead and buried. A politician would dig it up at his own peril.
As to Tommy Douglas, he was a progressive for his times. However, at that time, Psychiatry regarded homosexuality as a mental disorder. That was the accepted view in those days. But things have moved on since then. We know a lot more about homosexuality; it is not regarded as a mental disorder any more, but just an alternate lifestyle. A progressive (like Tommy Douglas) in the old days is regarded as a conservative today.
To regard homosexuality as a mental disorder today would indeed be a far right, fringe position.
#23
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009
You never give up do you! It always has to be a far right fringe person. Could you ever, just once, bring yourself to the realization that some people believe one thing and some believe another and it has no religious or political connection whatsoever. It's simply just a belief by a single person.
Conservative
#24
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter
I agree with everything you say, especially the line I put in bold.As for homosexuality, once again you would find Canadians close to evenly divided on the issue of gay marriage.....and Tommy Douglas believed homosexuality was a mental disease. Hardly a "right-wing fringe" position
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:
Colpy, Canadians are far from closely divided on the issue. The last poll I saw on the issue of same sex marriage was more than a year ago. In that poll, 69% Canadians supported SSM, hardly a close issue.
When the courts handed down their decision, the country was divided 50:50. However, after Parliament took up the issue, there has been a steady movement towards SSM, and the last poll showed Canadians supporting SSM by a big margin (69%). So like abortion, SSM is also a settled issue, dead and buried. A politician would dig it up at his own peril.
As to Tommy Douglas, he was a progressive for his times. However, at that time, Psychiatry regarded homosexuality as a mental disorder. That was the accepted view in those days. But things have moved on since then. We know a lot more about homosexuality; it is not regarded as a mental disorder any more, but just an alternate lifestyle. A progressive (like Tommy Douglas) in the old days is regarded as a conservative today.
To regard homosexuality as a mental disorder today would indeed be a far right, fringe position.
The one point I would make is that a view that commands even 31% support is not "fringe"
No Party Affiliation
#25
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific
I'm so glad you said that-as I get so sick and tired of constantly reading this "left wing/right wing" drivel. A lot of it has got no business even being connected to politics. And then you see ridiculous statements like "69% accept............"- which is absolute utter garbage because 99% of the people I know weren't even asked.You never give up do you! It always has to be a far right fringe person. Could you ever, just once, bring yourself to the realization that some people believe one thing and some believe another and it has no religious or political connection whatsoever. It's simply just a belief by a single person.
No Party Affiliation
#26
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by JLM
JLM, that is how opinion polls are conducted, they ask only a few thousand people. So why 99%? Probably 99.99% of Canadians were not asked, but what has that got to do with anything?I'm so glad you said that-as I get so sick and tired of constantly reading this "left wing/right wing" drivel. A lot of it has got no business even being connected to politics. And then you see ridiculous statements like "69% accept............"- which is absolute utter garbage because 99% of the people I know weren't even asked.
In the opinion polls, samples are scientifically selected, in a statistically random way. They don’t ask more that say 2000 people, which means that most Canadians were not asked. That does not make the poll any less relevant. The poll is a snapshot in time (or was about a year ago, I have no reason to believe that there has been any substantial change since then).
I think the poll reasonably reflects the sentiment of the majority of Canadians. We have had adequate debate on the subject of SSM, the courts have spoken, the Parliament has spoken, the people support SSM, the issue is dead and buried. It is time to move on.
No Party Affiliation
#27
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter
It's NOT scientific, I've been polled dozens of time over the years MAINLY because I was near my phone at supper time.JLM, that is how opinion polls are conducted, they ask only a few thousand people. So why 99%? Probably 99.99% of Canadians were not asked, but what has that got to do with anything?
In the opinion polls, samples are scientifically selected, in a statistically random way. They don’t ask more that say 2000 people, which means that most Canadians were not asked. That does not make the poll any less relevant. The poll is a snapshot in time (or was about a year ago, I have no reason to believe that there has been any substantial change since then).
I think the poll reasonably reflects the sentiment of the majority of Canadians. We have had adequate debate on the subject of SSM, the courts have spoken, the Parliament has spoken, the people support SSM, the issue is dead and buried. It is time to move on.
#28
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy
You mean like the 3 Left Wing parties that split the vote, combined with cries of traitor and subverting the legal and borderline mandatory nature of Coalitions as an opposition to minority government, allowing a party that lost the election to rule as if blessed by a higher power?First of all a right wing party splits the Conservative vote, thus enabling the Liberals to rule as if blessed by a higher power, majority after majority, without even having to break 40% of the popular vote.
.
The solution should be at least requiring a candidate get 50% of the vote to win a riding, with a run-off election if necessary.
Free Thinker
#29
Re: No conservative party
Jan 28th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy
you seem to be splittting hairs infinatum. Sharp razor?In the first instance, abortion, you are only partially correct. The Reform Party called for an abortion law restricting abortion after a certain time in the pregnancy.........this is the norm in the world. In fact, you would have trouble finding many nations without any abortion law, like Canada. That stance is, therefore, hardly "right-wing fringe" as in conforms to the norm in western societies.....and matches the opinion of at least 40% of Canadians. Au Contraire, the extremeist position is no law at all.....
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:
As for homosexuality, once again you would find Canadians close to evenly divided on the issue of gay marriage.....and Tommy Douglas believed homosexuality was a mental disease. Hardly a "right-wing fringe" position
As for government-funded multi-culturalism, well, that may fairly be called a right wing position......not a fringe right wing position as, once again, a very substantial portion of Canadians would agree that gov't sponsored multiculturalism is idiotic, wasteful, counter-productive, and detrimental to the welfare of our country. Full stop.
You seem to think that anything you happen to disagree with, any idea that doesn't fit in with the Holy Bible of Accepted Lefty Truths is a "right-wing fringe" idea.
How intellectually arrogant of you!
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