Clever Clogs
Posts: 519 
May 4th, 2008, 03:14 AM
So much for a transparent and accountable government, we have even less access to information under Harper than we did under Chretein and Martin.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...5:c0.02923 33
This "trust us, you don't need to know what we're up to" bull**** by the conservatives is getting real old.
Time for a change.
So much for a transparent and accountable government, we have even less access to information under Harper than we did under Chretein and Martin.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...5:c0.02923 33
Quote:
The federal Conservatives have quietly killed an access to information registry used by journalists, experts and the public that users say helped hold the government accountable.
Quote:
It wasn't there to serve the government, it was there to serve people trying to get accurate information on what the government is doing in the name of all Canadians.
A Treasury Board official confirmed to the Canadian Press on Friday that the system is being killed because "extensive" consultations showed it wasn't valued by government departments.
This "trust us, you don't need to know what we're up to" bull**** by the conservatives is getting real old.
Time for a change.
May 4th, 2008, 05:51 AM
Kind of like anybody that would throw a hissy fit over this piece of trumped up fluff. A useless tool.
Quote:
It was never meant to be available to the general public. Just because a couple people found it and use it...doesn't make it a valuable tool.
Originally created in 1989, it was used as an internal tool to keep track of requests and co-ordinate the government's response between agencies to potentially sensitive information released.
Kind of like anybody that would throw a hissy fit over this piece of trumped up fluff. A useless tool.
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,475 
May 4th, 2008, 11:01 AM
Not quite that simple Bear. Quite a few people used the information and granted, it didn't always show the government in the best light. Harper did promise "open government" and obviously, he has changed his mind.
Harper government kills key information registry
Sat, May 3, 2008
It was used to hold the government accountable
By DEAN BEEBY, THE CANADIAN PRESS
checkCookie(); OTTAWA -- The federal Conservatives have quietly killed a giant information registry used by lawyers, academics, journalists and ordinary citizens to hold government accountable.
The registry, created in 1989, is an electronic list of every request filed to all federal departments and agencies under the Access to Information Act.
Known as CAIRS, for Co-ordination of Access to Information Requests System, the database allowed ordinary citizens to identify millions of pages of once-secret documents that became public through individual freedom-of-information requests over many years.
But in a notice last week to civil servants on the Treasury Board website, officials posted an innocuous obituary: effective April 1, 2008, "the requirement to update CAIRS is no longer in effect."
A spokesperson for Treasury Board confirmed yesterday the system is being killed because "extensive" consultations showed it was not valued by government departments.
fctAdTag("bigbox",MyGenericTagVar,1);
http://rcws.eyereturn.com/log.aspx?p...&tokenID=57703
The consultations concluded "the valuable resources currently being used to maintain CAIRS would be better used in the collection and analysis of improved statistical reporting," said Robert Makichuk.
Public Works, which has operated the database, spent $166,000 improving it in 2001. As recently as 2003, federal officials had been working on a publicly accessible, online version.
Monthly paper lists also have been made available since the 1990s for public consultation at a central federal office in Ottawa.
In the meantime, a Canadian academic put the database on his website and opened it to public use, allowing citizens to quickly search thousands of requests for key words.
Alasdair Roberts, a political scientist at Syracuse University in New York, built a version of the database by requesting the CAIRS electronic records through an Access to Information Act request, and updated the site monthly.
CBC journalist David McKie took over the work in 2006 using another publicly accessible website (http://www.onlinedemocracy.ca).
Users searching key words cannot access the documents themselves, only the wording of the original access-to-information request, the date, the department, a file number, and general information about the requester, whether media, business, academic or other.
Not quite that simple Bear. Quite a few people used the information and granted, it didn't always show the government in the best light. Harper did promise "open government" and obviously, he has changed his mind.
Harper government kills key information registry
Sat, May 3, 2008
It was used to hold the government accountable
By DEAN BEEBY, THE CANADIAN PRESS
checkCookie(); OTTAWA -- The federal Conservatives have quietly killed a giant information registry used by lawyers, academics, journalists and ordinary citizens to hold government accountable.
The registry, created in 1989, is an electronic list of every request filed to all federal departments and agencies under the Access to Information Act.
Known as CAIRS, for Co-ordination of Access to Information Requests System, the database allowed ordinary citizens to identify millions of pages of once-secret documents that became public through individual freedom-of-information requests over many years.
But in a notice last week to civil servants on the Treasury Board website, officials posted an innocuous obituary: effective April 1, 2008, "the requirement to update CAIRS is no longer in effect."
A spokesperson for Treasury Board confirmed yesterday the system is being killed because "extensive" consultations showed it was not valued by government departments.
fctAdTag("bigbox",MyGenericTagVar,1);
http://rcws.eyereturn.com/log.aspx?p...&tokenID=57703
The consultations concluded "the valuable resources currently being used to maintain CAIRS would be better used in the collection and analysis of improved statistical reporting," said Robert Makichuk.
Public Works, which has operated the database, spent $166,000 improving it in 2001. As recently as 2003, federal officials had been working on a publicly accessible, online version.
Monthly paper lists also have been made available since the 1990s for public consultation at a central federal office in Ottawa.
In the meantime, a Canadian academic put the database on his website and opened it to public use, allowing citizens to quickly search thousands of requests for key words.
Alasdair Roberts, a political scientist at Syracuse University in New York, built a version of the database by requesting the CAIRS electronic records through an Access to Information Act request, and updated the site monthly.
CBC journalist David McKie took over the work in 2006 using another publicly accessible website (http://www.onlinedemocracy.ca).
Users searching key words cannot access the documents themselves, only the wording of the original access-to-information request, the date, the department, a file number, and general information about the requester, whether media, business, academic or other.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 519
May 4th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Like so much more in this country the Freedom of Information Act has been compromised by a conservative government interested only in control, not good governance.
Quoting CDNBear
Who cares what it was meant for, it was being used effectively to get access to information that the conservative government doesn't want to share with the public.
I was never meant to be available to the general public. Just because a couple people found it and use it...doesn't make it a valuable tool.
Kind of like anybody that would throw a hissy fit over this piece of trumped up fluff. A useless tool.
Kind of like anybody that would throw a hissy fit over this piece of trumped up fluff. A useless tool.
Like so much more in this country the Freedom of Information Act has been compromised by a conservative government interested only in control, not good governance.
May 4th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Where's the problem?
What a complete violation of my fundamental freedoms.
March on the Jackbooted thugs now...
Quoting elevennevele
How does it not? So they removed a part of the system that was costing them more money then it was worth.
Hey Bear, can you tell me how this makes them a more open and transparent government which they campaigned on?
Where's the problem?
Quoting Cobalt_Kid
You can still access the information, the system in question was only an indexing/collating system, which allowed the user to peruse the information as well as the originating request.
Who cares what it was meant for, it was being used effectively to get access to information that the conservative government doesn't want to share with the public.
Like so much more in this country the Freedom of Information Act has been compromised by a conservative government interested only in control, not good governance.
Like so much more in this country the Freedom of Information Act has been compromised by a conservative government interested only in control, not good governance.
Quoting #juan
Geeze Juan, thanx for posting that. Users searching key words cannot access the documents themselves, only the wording of the original access-to-information request, the date, the department, a file number, and general information about the requester, whether media, business, academic or other.
What a complete violation of my fundamental freedoms.
March on the Jackbooted thugs now...
Clever Clogs
Posts: 674
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
May 4th, 2008, 01:34 PM
How does it not? They've removed a means by which we are better able to keep oversight over our government. But I'm glad you asked. It's called transparency. Something that this government campaigned on.
Oh and hardly a cost. Much greater a cost to our democracy however taking it away.
Quoting CDNBear
How does it not? So they removed a part of the system that was costing them more money then it was worth.
How does it not? They've removed a means by which we are better able to keep oversight over our government. But I'm glad you asked. It's called transparency. Something that this government campaigned on.
Oh and hardly a cost. Much greater a cost to our democracy however taking it away.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 519
May 4th, 2008, 02:19 PM
The man who broke the story on the Afghan detainees torture says he wouldn't be able to access the information now he used to bring it to light. It can cost thousands of dollars in "processing" fees and months of waiting time as functionaries in the PMO decide if they want the information released or not.
This isn't about better government, it's about a small group of people deciding they have the right to decide how we're governed and it goes against years of democratic tradition.
Quoting CDNBear
It was a powerful tool to search for information others had already requested and served to make the government more accountable, which is why it's gone.
You can still access the information, the system in question was only an indexing/collating system, which allowed the user to peruse the information as well as the originating request.
The man who broke the story on the Afghan detainees torture says he wouldn't be able to access the information now he used to bring it to light. It can cost thousands of dollars in "processing" fees and months of waiting time as functionaries in the PMO decide if they want the information released or not.
This isn't about better government, it's about a small group of people deciding they have the right to decide how we're governed and it goes against years of democratic tradition.
May 10th, 2008, 05:38 AM
You don't even know what the system was. How can you make such outrageous claims?
Same to you?
Go read about CAIRS and what it actually was.
Quoting elevennevele
How does it not? They've removed a means by which we are better able to keep oversight over our government. But I'm glad you asked. It's called transparency. Something that this government campaigned on.
Oh and hardly a cost. Much greater a cost to our democracy however taking it away.
Oh and hardly a cost. Much greater a cost to our democracy however taking it away.
You don't even know what the system was. How can you make such outrageous claims? Quoting Cobalt_Kid
It was a powerful tool to search for information others had already requested and served to make the government more accountable, which is why it's gone.
Same to you?Quote:
Do you believe everything printed by someone...anyone, so long as it fits your agenda?
The man who broke the story on the Afghan detainees torture says he wouldn't be able to access the information now he used to bring it to light. It can cost thousands of dollars in "processing" fees and months of waiting time as functionaries in the PMO decide if they want the information released or not.
Go read about CAIRS and what it actually was.
Quote:
Oh brother.
This isn't about better government, it's about a small group of people deciding they have the right to decide how we're governed and it goes against years of democratic tradition.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,103
May 10th, 2008, 08:33 AM
Curious.....
When the Liberals instituted a "gun-registry" they promised it would cost "X" and effectively reduce the criminal use of firearms in this country.....
The cost ballooned far beyond the stated amount and there's no evidence of any kind that the stated purpose was even remotely achieved.
One "program" that cost a fortune....another that cost considerably less but moved towards transparency in government...... One "lives" the other gets squelched..... go figure......
Curious.....
When the Liberals instituted a "gun-registry" they promised it would cost "X" and effectively reduce the criminal use of firearms in this country.....
The cost ballooned far beyond the stated amount and there's no evidence of any kind that the stated purpose was even remotely achieved.
One "program" that cost a fortune....another that cost considerably less but moved towards transparency in government...... One "lives" the other gets squelched..... go figure......
May 10th, 2008, 08:35 AM
Because someone said it did?
Quoting MikeyDB
How did CAIRS increase 'transparency'?
Curious.....
When the Liberals instituted a "gun-registry" they promised it would cost "X" and effectively reduce the criminal use of firearms in this country.....
The cost ballooned far beyond the stated amount and there's no evidence of any kind that the stated purpose was even remotely achieved.
One "program" that cost a fortune....another that cost considerably less but moved towards transparency in government...... One "lives" the other gets squelched..... go figure......
When the Liberals instituted a "gun-registry" they promised it would cost "X" and effectively reduce the criminal use of firearms in this country.....
The cost ballooned far beyond the stated amount and there's no evidence of any kind that the stated purpose was even remotely achieved.
One "program" that cost a fortune....another that cost considerably less but moved towards transparency in government...... One "lives" the other gets squelched..... go figure......
Because someone said it did?
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,103
May 10th, 2008, 08:44 AM
OK Bear the potential in having a database of information on government activity doesn't increase the liklihood that relationships between discrete pieces of information contained in that database might be established...
Why bother with any process or means of oversight on government....right?
We don't need to know when a minister is spending more than he can reasonably explain...we don't need to know why a particular minister was made ambassasor to Denmark we don't need to know why ....well as far as your concerned here Bear... why not simply close down every potential oversight mechanism and run it like a dictatorship where the people of this "democracy" won't have any means of any kind in guaging the effectiveness and efficiency of the government they're paying for.....
I understand you like working and living in the dark....so why shouldn't everyone else...right?
For the cost of the program compared to the cost of the gun registry....you're in favor of keeping the more bloated non-effective system than you are in spending a whole lot less to keep a politicians feet to the fire....right?
Brilliant!
OK Bear the potential in having a database of information on government activity doesn't increase the liklihood that relationships between discrete pieces of information contained in that database might be established...
Why bother with any process or means of oversight on government....right?
We don't need to know when a minister is spending more than he can reasonably explain...we don't need to know why a particular minister was made ambassasor to Denmark we don't need to know why ....well as far as your concerned here Bear... why not simply close down every potential oversight mechanism and run it like a dictatorship where the people of this "democracy" won't have any means of any kind in guaging the effectiveness and efficiency of the government they're paying for.....
I understand you like working and living in the dark....so why shouldn't everyone else...right?
For the cost of the program compared to the cost of the gun registry....you're in favor of keeping the more bloated non-effective system than you are in spending a whole lot less to keep a politicians feet to the fire....right?
Brilliant!
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 7,935
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
May 10th, 2008, 09:39 AM
The party versus party debate is retarded, there is only one party in the Canadian political system, all camps of that system function in the interest of the capitalist elements presently in control of most aspects of Canadian life. All the various partisan flavours of Canadian political hypocracy have the same source, private wealth. There is nothing but a thin veneer of public control of this country.
The party versus party debate is retarded, there is only one party in the Canadian political system, all camps of that system function in the interest of the capitalist elements presently in control of most aspects of Canadian life. All the various partisan flavours of Canadian political hypocracy have the same source, private wealth. There is nothing but a thin veneer of public control of this country.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 7,935
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
May 10th, 2008, 09:54 AM
Quoting MikeyDB
Canadians are a myth, no such true north strong and free people ever existed.
Beve
What veneer?
Canadians aren't bothered about the failures of their federal police....the failures of their security and intelligence police.... Canadians simply don't care!
What veneer?
Canadians aren't bothered about the failures of their federal police....the failures of their security and intelligence police.... Canadians simply don't care!
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 7,935
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
May 10th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, Harper says
MIKE DE SOUZACanwest News Service
Friday, May 09, 2008
Some of the criticism brewing in Canada against the state of Israel, including from some members of Parliament, is similar to the attitude of Nazi Germany in the Second World War, Prime Minister Stephen Harper warned yesterday.
"I guess my fear is what I see happening in some circles is (an) anti-Israeli sentiment, really just as a thinly disguised veil for good old-fashioned anti-Semitism, which I think is completely unacceptable," Harper said in an interview with CJAD radio.
"We learned in the Second World War that those who would hate and destroy the Jewish people would ultimately hate and destroy the rest of us as well, and the same holds today."
Harper, who was to deliver a speech in Toronto marking the 60th anniversary of Israel in the evening, blamed some of his rivals in opposition for encouraging anti-Semitism in the midst of the conflict between the Jewish state and Hezbollah in the summer of 2006 in Lebanon. At the time, Harper was criticized in some circles for being pro-Israel when he defended controversial military strikes in Beirut.
"Canada, under this government, is never going to cater to that kind of opinion," Harper said.
"I am disturbed that there are some elements in our political system, there are even some members of Parliament ... that were willing to cater to that kind of opinion."
Criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, Harper says
MIKE DE SOUZACanwest News Service
Friday, May 09, 2008
Some of the criticism brewing in Canada against the state of Israel, including from some members of Parliament, is similar to the attitude of Nazi Germany in the Second World War, Prime Minister Stephen Harper warned yesterday.
"I guess my fear is what I see happening in some circles is (an) anti-Israeli sentiment, really just as a thinly disguised veil for good old-fashioned anti-Semitism, which I think is completely unacceptable," Harper said in an interview with CJAD radio.
"We learned in the Second World War that those who would hate and destroy the Jewish people would ultimately hate and destroy the rest of us as well, and the same holds today."
Harper, who was to deliver a speech in Toronto marking the 60th anniversary of Israel in the evening, blamed some of his rivals in opposition for encouraging anti-Semitism in the midst of the conflict between the Jewish state and Hezbollah in the summer of 2006 in Lebanon. At the time, Harper was criticized in some circles for being pro-Israel when he defended controversial military strikes in Beirut.
"Canada, under this government, is never going to cater to that kind of opinion," Harper said.
"I am disturbed that there are some elements in our political system, there are even some members of Parliament ... that were willing to cater to that kind of opinion."
© The Gazette (Montreal)
Steve Psyco Harpercon is a very evil piece of dispensational work, the Harper party is loaded with religious fanatics of a peculiar type, half godwhacks and half bankwhacks, that's a lethal combination.
Steve Psyco Harpercon is a very evil piece of dispensational work, the Harper party is loaded with religious fanatics of a peculiar type, half godwhacks and half bankwhacks, that's a lethal combination.
May 11th, 2008, 08:20 AM
WTF is the big deal?
Quoting MikeyDB
That's my point Mikey, the CAIR system was a collation of search parameters on other sanctioned access to to information requests. It was a search tool of the search tool.
OK Bear the potential in having a database of information on government activity doesn't increase the liklihood that relationships between discrete pieces of information contained in that database might be established...
Why bother with any process or means of oversight on government....right?
Why bother with any process or means of oversight on government....right?
WTF is the big deal?
Quote:
And again, you exemplar the very fact that you don't know what you are arguing for.
We don't need to know when a minister is spending more than he can reasonably explain...we don't need to know why a particular minister was made ambassasor to Denmark we don't need to know why ....well as far as your concerned here Bear... why not simply close down every potential oversight mechanism and run it like a dictatorship where the people of this "democracy" won't have any means of any kind in guaging the effectiveness and efficiency of the government they're paying for.....
Quote:
I understand you like working and living in the dark....so why shouldn't everyone else...right?
Quote:
Wrong. Both systems are worthless, lest you be a user of either. But under a microscope, neither has produced an outcome of any great value. I was actually told in a conversation with someone very familiar with the CAIR system, that it appeared to be a make work project, not a mechanism for transparency.
For the cost of the program compared to the cost of the gun registry....you're in favor of keeping the more bloated non-effective system than you are in spending a whole lot less to keep a politicians feet to the fire....right?
Quote:
Yes...scrapping both would be brilliant.
Brilliant!
