No party affiliation
Posts: 1,333 
Location: Oshawa
Location: Oshawa
March 12th, 2008, 04:55 PM
No one has the right to call you a 'climate denier' for expressing your views on climate change
By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN, TORONTO SUN
If your neighbour is a charter member of the Al Gore Nation, today would probably be a bad time to ask him how he's been enjoying shovelling all that "global warming" out of his driveway this winter.
Trust me, climate hysterics (anyone who accuses others of being "climate deniers") do not like being mocked.
For example, last week's otherwise largely favourable response to my March 2 column "The carbon cops are coming, When anyone says 'polluters will pay' to reduce greenhouse gases, they mean you and me," included this reply from "William."
"My apologies for not responding to your diatribe against the Suzuki Foundation's proposal for a Carbon Tax, Sunday March 2, 2008, but I've been busy. Your argument ... should be backed up by a simple but effective test of your own about C02 emissions. Park your vehicle in your garage, close the garage door, roll down the car windows, and sit in it with the motor idling for about an hour or more. Then come out and give us all a full and highly detailed report on your findings."
Poor "William." He wants to save the world, but he doesn't know the difference between deadly carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon dioxide (CO2), the latter of which, while toxic in very high concentrations, is also essential to all life on Earth, as well as being a naturally occurring greenhouse gas.
Then again, what can we expect in the current climate of intolerance, when even a revered environmentalist like David Suzuki, while not suggesting the self-inflicted gassing of anyone, urges university students to find ways to jail politicians who don't meet his standards for fighting climate change? (A spokesman for his charitable foundation says he wasn't being literal.)
In any event, climate hysterics tend to be sensitive when you poke fun at them about this year's cold, snowy winter being counter-intuitive to global warming.
HEAD GASKET
Before they blow a head gasket, "weather" isn't "climate." One cold winter doesn't disprove man-made global warming. The theory doesn't argue all parts of the world will get warmer, or that it will get warmer every year. Some parts will actually get colder.
Then again, we weren't the ones hysterically declaring last year's mild early winter was a sign of global warming -- total nonsense -- or predicting that last year would be the hottest on record. It wasn't.
The scientific "consensus" on climate change is simply that man-made greenhouse gas emissions, caused primarily by the burning of fossil fuels (oil, coal, natural gas), are causing warming beyond what naturally occurs because of the greenhouse effect.
While the impact on climate, and thus on us, will be significant over time, there are substantial disagreements, and great unknowns, about what the precise impacts will be, how severe, where, when and most important, what we should do about it.
And on that issue no one -- no one -- has the right to silence debate -- no scientist, no environmentalist, no politician -- by dismissing anyone who disagrees with them as a "climate denier."
Because what to do about it isn't a scientific issue, it's a political one that will involve huge expenditures of public money. Our money. And we all get to decide that.
Yes, you can question the current orthodoxies about global warming and still care about the environment.
Yes, you have a right to ask whether the solutions being proposed -- for example, Kyoto -- make any sense.
HELPING THE ENVIRONMENT
Finally, there are many things we can all do to help the environment and lower our reliance on fossil fuels, good ideas regardless of your views on global warming.
Don't buy a bigger house than you need. Don't drive a more powerful car (or buy more cars) than you need. Cut down on flying. Vacation closer to home. Take public transit more often. When possible, buy domestic instead of foreign produce and manufactured goods. Eat less meat, more fruits and vegetables. Reduce, reuse, recycle.
But the choice between, say, nuclear or wind and solar power as we head into the future?
That's a political issue. We all get a say on that.
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...952296-sun.php
No one has the right to call you a 'climate denier' for expressing your views on climate change
By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN, TORONTO SUN
If your neighbour is a charter member of the Al Gore Nation, today would probably be a bad time to ask him how he's been enjoying shovelling all that "global warming" out of his driveway this winter.
Trust me, climate hysterics (anyone who accuses others of being "climate deniers") do not like being mocked.
For example, last week's otherwise largely favourable response to my March 2 column "The carbon cops are coming, When anyone says 'polluters will pay' to reduce greenhouse gases, they mean you and me," included this reply from "William."
"My apologies for not responding to your diatribe against the Suzuki Foundation's proposal for a Carbon Tax, Sunday March 2, 2008, but I've been busy. Your argument ... should be backed up by a simple but effective test of your own about C02 emissions. Park your vehicle in your garage, close the garage door, roll down the car windows, and sit in it with the motor idling for about an hour or more. Then come out and give us all a full and highly detailed report on your findings."
Poor "William." He wants to save the world, but he doesn't know the difference between deadly carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon dioxide (CO2), the latter of which, while toxic in very high concentrations, is also essential to all life on Earth, as well as being a naturally occurring greenhouse gas.
Then again, what can we expect in the current climate of intolerance, when even a revered environmentalist like David Suzuki, while not suggesting the self-inflicted gassing of anyone, urges university students to find ways to jail politicians who don't meet his standards for fighting climate change? (A spokesman for his charitable foundation says he wasn't being literal.)
In any event, climate hysterics tend to be sensitive when you poke fun at them about this year's cold, snowy winter being counter-intuitive to global warming.
HEAD GASKET
Before they blow a head gasket, "weather" isn't "climate." One cold winter doesn't disprove man-made global warming. The theory doesn't argue all parts of the world will get warmer, or that it will get warmer every year. Some parts will actually get colder.
Then again, we weren't the ones hysterically declaring last year's mild early winter was a sign of global warming -- total nonsense -- or predicting that last year would be the hottest on record. It wasn't.
The scientific "consensus" on climate change is simply that man-made greenhouse gas emissions, caused primarily by the burning of fossil fuels (oil, coal, natural gas), are causing warming beyond what naturally occurs because of the greenhouse effect.
While the impact on climate, and thus on us, will be significant over time, there are substantial disagreements, and great unknowns, about what the precise impacts will be, how severe, where, when and most important, what we should do about it.
And on that issue no one -- no one -- has the right to silence debate -- no scientist, no environmentalist, no politician -- by dismissing anyone who disagrees with them as a "climate denier."
Because what to do about it isn't a scientific issue, it's a political one that will involve huge expenditures of public money. Our money. And we all get to decide that.
Yes, you can question the current orthodoxies about global warming and still care about the environment.
Yes, you have a right to ask whether the solutions being proposed -- for example, Kyoto -- make any sense.
HELPING THE ENVIRONMENT
Finally, there are many things we can all do to help the environment and lower our reliance on fossil fuels, good ideas regardless of your views on global warming.
Don't buy a bigger house than you need. Don't drive a more powerful car (or buy more cars) than you need. Cut down on flying. Vacation closer to home. Take public transit more often. When possible, buy domestic instead of foreign produce and manufactured goods. Eat less meat, more fruits and vegetables. Reduce, reuse, recycle.
But the choice between, say, nuclear or wind and solar power as we head into the future?
That's a political issue. We all get a say on that.
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...952296-sun.php
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556 
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
March 12th, 2008, 05:39 PM
So where was Lorrie over the last few ice ages? Did we have something to do with continental drift? Pollution may have sped up the process to the extent that one pee pollutes the whole pool, but global warming is a natural Earth cycle. Man can no more halt it than he can halt other Earth cycles - the tides, day and night, seasons. The things they'll print to sell paper....
Woof
So where was Lorrie over the last few ice ages? Did we have something to do with continental drift? Pollution may have sped up the process to the extent that one pee pollutes the whole pool, but global warming is a natural Earth cycle. Man can no more halt it than he can halt other Earth cycles - the tides, day and night, seasons. The things they'll print to sell paper....
Woof
No party affiliation
Posts: 1,333
Location: Oshawa
Location: Oshawa
March 12th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Interesting, what if we were to double the amount of clourine in a pool what effect would that have on us or what if we were to double the amount of salt in our bodies, what effect would that have?
Quoting lone wolf
One pee pollutes the whole pool?
So where was Lorrie over the last few ice ages? Did we have something to do with continental drift? Pollution may have sped up the process to the extent that one pee pollutes the whole pool, but global warming is a natural Earth cycle. Man can no more halt it than he can halt other Earth cycles - the tides, day and night, seasons. The things they'll print to sell paper....
Woof
Woof
Interesting, what if we were to double the amount of clourine in a pool what effect would that have on us or what if we were to double the amount of salt in our bodies, what effect would that have?
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,810
March 12th, 2008, 05:53 PM
Quoting lone wolf
Thousands....Nay, tens of thousands, of scientists would disagree with you. The current trend of global warming has become evident along with a corresponding rise in global carbon dioxide levels, among other things since the industrial revolution. This kind of warming is not any kind of natural cycle. Left unchecked, global warming will start to kill people at an unprecedented rate in a very few years.
So where was Lorrie over the last few ice ages? Did we have something to do with continental drift? Pollution may have sped up the process to the extent that one pee pollutes the whole pool, but global warming is a natural Earth cycle. Man can no more halt it than he can halt other Earth cycles - the tides, day and night, seasons. The things they'll print to sell paper....
Woof
Woof
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
March 12th, 2008, 06:01 PM
Woof!
Quoting Avro
Well, if you want to get into overkill, you can use a bazooka to kill mosquitoes too - just like you need a bulldozer to clear global warming from some Ottawa streets.
One pee pollutes the whole pool?
Interesting, what if we were to double the amount of clourine in a pool what effect would that have on us or what if we were to double the amount of salt in our bodies, what effect would that have?
Interesting, what if we were to double the amount of clourine in a pool what effect would that have on us or what if we were to double the amount of salt in our bodies, what effect would that have?
Woof!
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
March 12th, 2008, 06:08 PM
Woof?
Quoting #juan
From whose pockets were those tens of thousands of scientists eating back in the sixties and seventies when legions of flower children were being taunted to "Get a Job" by some guy in a smokestack industry? Gee ... I hate to say I told you so....
Thousands....Nay, tens of thousands, of scientists would disagree with you. The current trend of global warming has become evident along with a corresponding rise in global carbon dioxide levels, among other things since the industrial revolution. This kind of warming is not any kind of natural cycle. Left unchecked, global warming will start to kill people at an unprecedented rate in a very few years.
Woof?
No party affiliation
Posts: 1,333
Location: Oshawa
Location: Oshawa
March 12th, 2008, 06:12 PM
Don't avoid the point, what happens when you double the amount of co2 in the atmosphere?
Nothing?
Quoting lone wolf
Well, if you want to get into overkill, you can use a bazooka to kill mosquitoes too - just like you need a bulldozer to clear global warming from some Ottawa streets.
Woof!
Woof!
Don't avoid the point, what happens when you double the amount of co2 in the atmosphere?
Nothing?
No party affiliation
Posts: 1,333
Location: Oshawa
Location: Oshawa
March 12th, 2008, 06:14 PM
Quoting lone wolf
If you can't respond just say so, instead of blathering a mouth full of hot air.
From whose pockets were those tens of thousands of scientists eating back in the sixties and seventies when legions of flower children were being taunted to "Get a Job" by some guy in a smokestack industry? Gee ... I hate to say I told you so....
Woof?
Woof?
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,810
March 12th, 2008, 06:26 PM
Quoting lone wolf
Wolf....Weather is not climate. A change in the weather is not necessarily a change in the climate. I grew up in Northern B.C. and minus fifty degrees was fairly common in Winter but that temperature is rare now. I remember when minus -20 degrees C) was not unheard of in Vancouver
Well, if you want to get into overkill, you can use a bazooka to kill mosquitoes too - just like you need a bulldozer to clear global warming from some Ottawa streets.
Woof!
Woof!
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
March 12th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Do you ever debate without looking for a fight?
Woof!
Quoting Avro
Damn! I musta forgot the trollbane. You mixing the Draino and Javax again? Congrats, Az.... You're the first living thing I've seen who can speak more intelligently from that end. Point was, we've known for over 40 years but they who said anything about pollution were all doomsayers then. As ususal, man has acted too late.
If you can't respond just say so, instead of blathering a mouth full of hot air.
Do you ever debate without looking for a fight?
Woof!
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,810
March 12th, 2008, 06:36 PM
A 2 to 3°C warmer world will look significantly different from the world we see around us today. With this level of warming, there will be no more polar bears and some species of arctic seals will disappear.
In a 2 to 3°C warmer world there will be 30% less snow pack in the Rocky Mountains and 60% less water content in that snowpack. The Maple forests of New England will move into northern Maine and Southern Canada.
Scientists are also linking hurricane intensity and water content to climate change. Forest fires in the west are expected to double or even quadruple the number of acres burned between these two temperatures, as soils dry out more quickly.
Coral Reefs, home to 25% of all marine species, will begin to disappear with temperature increases between 2 and 3°C. Two recent studies project that by 2050, 25% of all plant and animal species on earth will be become extinct.
Huge coastal population centers may also be affected in the US and around the world. We know that during the last interglacial period (approximately 125,000 years ago), on a 3°C warmer planet, it took Greenland approximately 120 years to melt, raising sea levels 4 to 6 meters.
Just a one meter rise would displace millions of people living along coastlines across the globe. In New Orleans, where we are spending 200 - 300 billion dollars putting the city back together, a 1-meter sea level rise would be catastrophic.
Quoting Walter
A 2°C World How?
A 2 to 3°C warmer world will look significantly different from the world we see around us today. With this level of warming, there will be no more polar bears and some species of arctic seals will disappear.
In a 2 to 3°C warmer world there will be 30% less snow pack in the Rocky Mountains and 60% less water content in that snowpack. The Maple forests of New England will move into northern Maine and Southern Canada.
Scientists are also linking hurricane intensity and water content to climate change. Forest fires in the west are expected to double or even quadruple the number of acres burned between these two temperatures, as soils dry out more quickly.
Coral Reefs, home to 25% of all marine species, will begin to disappear with temperature increases between 2 and 3°C. Two recent studies project that by 2050, 25% of all plant and animal species on earth will be become extinct.
Huge coastal population centers may also be affected in the US and around the world. We know that during the last interglacial period (approximately 125,000 years ago), on a 3°C warmer planet, it took Greenland approximately 120 years to melt, raising sea levels 4 to 6 meters.
Just a one meter rise would displace millions of people living along coastlines across the globe. In New Orleans, where we are spending 200 - 300 billion dollars putting the city back together, a 1-meter sea level rise would be catastrophic.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
March 12th, 2008, 06:39 PM
Woof!
Quoting Avro
I assume - just like everyone else - that if you double CO2 in, you have twice as much CO2 to get out. Now, bright boy, is that from CO2 being added to the atmosphere, or is the cancer called urban sprawl and rain forest harvests destroying vegetation which scrubs CO2 from the atmosphere?
Don't avoid the point, what happens when you double the amount of co2 in the atmosphere?
Nothing?
Nothing?
Woof!
