Clever Clogs
Posts: 519 
November 9th, 2007, 04:26 AM
I notice there's a new round of slick conservative ads attacking Stephane Dion. No opposition leader in Canadian history has faced such a concerted media blitz by the party in power and few oppositions have had to put up with such harsh partisanship as being carried out by the conservatives in Parliment. Not only are they refusing to allow longstanding priviledges tradtionally enjoyed by all MPs as part of their democratic role, the conservatives have actively tried to prevent the smooth functioning of Parliment for purely political reasons. All the conservative initiatives seem to have one purpose, the removal of any effective opposition from our Parlimentary system, to be replaced with one-party control of the country. The MP in my own riding has gone as far as appointing a government representative to the constituents in a riding already held by an MP from another party. The message is clear that unless you support the conservatives the government will not work for you, this is the opposite of democracy, it's totalitarianism.
Also another thing to keep in mind, if Stephane Dion is as ineffective as the conservatives and their media flaks proclaim so loudly, why are millions of dollars being spent to convince people not to support him. Clearly we're being sold a load of BS when it comes to Stephane Dion. The truth is he's the only politician that offers a real future for this country. If Harper and his minions have their way there will be no Canada in the near future in the same way the last conservative government almost destroyed the nation by being more concerned with meeting the needs of the far right in the US.
Only those who want to see the end of this great nation need to fear Stephane Dion, for the rest of us he stands for what this nation truely is at its core.
I notice there's a new round of slick conservative ads attacking Stephane Dion. No opposition leader in Canadian history has faced such a concerted media blitz by the party in power and few oppositions have had to put up with such harsh partisanship as being carried out by the conservatives in Parliment. Not only are they refusing to allow longstanding priviledges tradtionally enjoyed by all MPs as part of their democratic role, the conservatives have actively tried to prevent the smooth functioning of Parliment for purely political reasons. All the conservative initiatives seem to have one purpose, the removal of any effective opposition from our Parlimentary system, to be replaced with one-party control of the country. The MP in my own riding has gone as far as appointing a government representative to the constituents in a riding already held by an MP from another party. The message is clear that unless you support the conservatives the government will not work for you, this is the opposite of democracy, it's totalitarianism.
Also another thing to keep in mind, if Stephane Dion is as ineffective as the conservatives and their media flaks proclaim so loudly, why are millions of dollars being spent to convince people not to support him. Clearly we're being sold a load of BS when it comes to Stephane Dion. The truth is he's the only politician that offers a real future for this country. If Harper and his minions have their way there will be no Canada in the near future in the same way the last conservative government almost destroyed the nation by being more concerned with meeting the needs of the far right in the US.
Only those who want to see the end of this great nation need to fear Stephane Dion, for the rest of us he stands for what this nation truely is at its core.
Council Member
Posts: 1,897
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
November 9th, 2007, 06:30 AM
Aw crap ! When you spend more effort in bashing the other guy it just mean you have no substance to bring forth.
Dion looks lost by himself , isn't that bad publicity in its self?
I'm starting to hate this Party system we have here. Its street gangs fighting for territory at the expense for what really needs to be adressed.
Not a damn party seems to hold any integrity for me and I guess it never will.
Aw crap ! When you spend more effort in bashing the other guy it just mean you have no substance to bring forth.
Dion looks lost by himself , isn't that bad publicity in its self?
I'm starting to hate this Party system we have here. Its street gangs fighting for territory at the expense for what really needs to be adressed.
Not a damn party seems to hold any integrity for me and I guess it never will.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118 
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 9th, 2007, 07:20 AM
All too often, a person will say, I am voting for the conservatives because the liberals are a corrupt pack of morons.
It is my personal opinion that if you ever vote with that mentality, you are destroying the country. Vote for the person you think is a good candidate, the person you think is a good leader. If no one is qualified, cast an empty ballot, if you don't like our electoral system, don't show up, if you don't like some candidate, don't base your vote on that.
When the government is inept, we need a direct tool of accountability to right that, so that elections can be used for hiring the most qualified. Using it to enact retribution is the principal that legitimizes democracy. I had hoped the Conservative spawned accountability act would enable this, but I was disappointed on this.
All too often, a person will say, I am voting for the conservatives because the liberals are a corrupt pack of morons.
It is my personal opinion that if you ever vote with that mentality, you are destroying the country. Vote for the person you think is a good candidate, the person you think is a good leader. If no one is qualified, cast an empty ballot, if you don't like our electoral system, don't show up, if you don't like some candidate, don't base your vote on that.
When the government is inept, we need a direct tool of accountability to right that, so that elections can be used for hiring the most qualified. Using it to enact retribution is the principal that legitimizes democracy. I had hoped the Conservative spawned accountability act would enable this, but I was disappointed on this.
Council Member
Posts: 1,897
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
November 9th, 2007, 07:34 AM
I don't have that luxury from where i live....I'm totaly against the Bloc and my choices was for the one who has a better chance of winning over them...Glad to say theres one less Bloc candidate. I love my country and will do my part for it to stay together faults and all.
I don't have that luxury from where i live....I'm totaly against the Bloc and my choices was for the one who has a better chance of winning over them...Glad to say theres one less Bloc candidate. I love my country and will do my part for it to stay together faults and all.
Clean my windows Socrates
Posts: 4,813
Videos: 1
Videos: 1
November 9th, 2007, 08:18 AM
To blame the conservatives for Dion's shortcoming is a stretch. I think the conservatives have pinpointed Dion's perceived weaknesses and hammered away at them. Dion, by not countering any sort of defense to this, has made him self to look like a spineless leader in my opinion.
To blame the conservatives for Dion's shortcoming is a stretch. I think the conservatives have pinpointed Dion's perceived weaknesses and hammered away at them. Dion, by not countering any sort of defense to this, has made him self to look like a spineless leader in my opinion.
November 9th, 2007, 08:29 AM
The real winner out of all of this will be Layton, but even a win for the NDP will be a win for Conservatives too. It's going to be like what happened to the Conservatives and Reform all over again. Perhaps this is pushing us into a two partied system, hope not, but who knows.
The real winner out of all of this will be Layton, but even a win for the NDP will be a win for Conservatives too. It's going to be like what happened to the Conservatives and Reform all over again. Perhaps this is pushing us into a two partied system, hope not, but who knows.
Satelitte Radio Addict
Posts: 869
Location: Toronto, ON
Location: Toronto, ON
November 9th, 2007, 08:50 AM
If Dion had a backbone there is one very simple way to put an end to it. Force an election. By becoming patsies they are willing accomplices to everything you pin on the Conservatives.
As for the ads, have you ever seen a leader attacked using his own words? I've seen plenty of negative ads from both sides but this is the first that features the attacked leader saying something in their own voice. Quite ironic actually.
If Dion had a backbone there is one very simple way to put an end to it. Force an election. By becoming patsies they are willing accomplices to everything you pin on the Conservatives.
As for the ads, have you ever seen a leader attacked using his own words? I've seen plenty of negative ads from both sides but this is the first that features the attacked leader saying something in their own voice. Quite ironic actually.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 9th, 2007, 09:32 AM
Everyone must vote for a person that best represents them and abide by the democratic decisions that the resulting government makes. Voting in such a way that your intention is to skew the results away from what would best represent the people is just bad for everybody.
When a sizable proportion of people vote in a subverting manner, three things happen:
Quoting El Barto
See but that's just the point. You think, hey it may be that the majority of the people support the Bloc Quebecois, so you decide to vote in such a way as to subvert the perceived outcome.
I don't have that luxury from where i live....I'm totaly against the Bloc and my choices was for the one who has a better chance of winning over them...Glad to say theres one less Bloc candidate. I love my country and will do my part for it to stay together faults and all.
Everyone must vote for a person that best represents them and abide by the democratic decisions that the resulting government makes. Voting in such a way that your intention is to skew the results away from what would best represent the people is just bad for everybody.
When a sizable proportion of people vote in a subverting manner, three things happen:
- A party which does not well represent the people is overrepresented,
- A party (or parties) which would have well represented the people doesn't receive the votes that went to the first party,
- and the party that people are voting against get just as many votes and thus the same amount of representation.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,995
Location: Florida, Hurricane Central
Location: Florida, Hurricane Central
November 9th, 2007, 09:00 PM
It is not bad for everybody.
Democracy is the representative will of the people. It is no less subversive to the popular will if the primary motivation of a voter is to stop a candidate. If that is what people put the highest priority, then not voting in such a manner is far more likely to skew the outcome which best represents the will of the people.
Certainly you would agree that in the prior French election before the most recent one, most of the socialist supporters who voted for Mitterand in the run-off did so because they did not want Le Pen to be President as opposed to supporting Mitterand, and that was ultimately the most representative outcome of the French electorate?
Quoting Niflmir
N
See but that's just the point. You think, hey it may be that the majority of the people support the Bloc Quebecois, so you decide to vote in such a way as to subvert the perceived outcome.
Everyone must vote for a person that best represents them and abide by the democratic decisions that the resulting government makes. Voting in such a way that your intention is to skew the results away from what would best represent the people is just bad for everybody.
When a sizable proportion of people vote in a subverting manner, three things happen:
Everyone must vote for a person that best represents them and abide by the democratic decisions that the resulting government makes. Voting in such a way that your intention is to skew the results away from what would best represent the people is just bad for everybody.
When a sizable proportion of people vote in a subverting manner, three things happen:
- A party which does not well represent the people is overrepresented,
- A party (or parties) which would have well represented the people doesn't receive the votes that went to the first party,
- and the party that people are voting against get just as many votes and thus the same amount of representation.
It is not bad for everybody.
Democracy is the representative will of the people. It is no less subversive to the popular will if the primary motivation of a voter is to stop a candidate. If that is what people put the highest priority, then not voting in such a manner is far more likely to skew the outcome which best represents the will of the people.
Certainly you would agree that in the prior French election before the most recent one, most of the socialist supporters who voted for Mitterand in the run-off did so because they did not want Le Pen to be President as opposed to supporting Mitterand, and that was ultimately the most representative outcome of the French electorate?
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,315
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 9th, 2007, 09:09 PM
Attack me with my own words and beware.... If the attacker will manipulate words another has spoken to use them out of context for his gain, what will he do with the wishes of other people - or those of a population he is sworn to represent?
Woof!
Attack me with my own words and beware.... If the attacker will manipulate words another has spoken to use them out of context for his gain, what will he do with the wishes of other people - or those of a population he is sworn to represent?
Woof!
Clever Clogs
Posts: 519
November 9th, 2007, 09:18 PM
Quoting IdRatherBeSkiing
The Conservatives have taken this approach in the past with Chretien and offended many Canadians. I know I'm tired of seeing ads attacking the opposition leader when the minority government is doing everything it can to waste taxpayers money and the time of Parliment.
If Dion had a backbone there is one very simple way to put an end to it. Force an election. By becoming patsies they are willing accomplices to everything you pin on the Conservatives.
As for the ads, have you ever seen a leader attacked using his own words? I've seen plenty of negative ads from both sides but this is the first that features the attacked leader saying something in their own voice. Quite ironic actually.
As for the ads, have you ever seen a leader attacked using his own words? I've seen plenty of negative ads from both sides but this is the first that features the attacked leader saying something in their own voice. Quite ironic actually.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,315
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 9th, 2007, 10:29 PM
It's hard to take a guy who acts like the spoiled rich kid in the sandbox seriously. Time for Harpo to put that needle nose to the grindstone and set those beady little eyes on the business of governing. He's milked it for all it's worth.
Woof!
It's hard to take a guy who acts like the spoiled rich kid in the sandbox seriously. Time for Harpo to put that needle nose to the grindstone and set those beady little eyes on the business of governing. He's milked it for all it's worth.
Woof!
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 5,380
Location: Kamloops BC
Location: Kamloops BC
November 9th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Just quit calling me a parasite and we'll get along fine 
Quoting lone wolf
Damn it Wolf with posts like that i might have to start liking you again
It's hard to take a guy who acts like the spoiled rich kid in the sandbox seriously. Time for Harpo to put that needle nose to the grindstone and set those beady little eyes on the business of governing. He's milked it for all it's worth.
Woof!
Woof!
Just quit calling me a parasite and we'll get along fine Clever Clogs
Posts: 519
November 9th, 2007, 11:48 PM
Problem is he's not working for the country, like Mulroney before him his eyes are firmly fixed to the south dreaming about the Neo-con paradise he could turn Canada into if he ever got a majority.
Harris' "common sense revolution" would be a drop in the bucket compared to the changes we'd see.
Quoting lone wolf
Harper is hard at work.
It's hard to take a guy who acts like the spoiled rich kid in the sandbox seriously. Time for Harpo to put that needle nose to the grindstone and set those beady little eyes on the business of governing. He's milked it for all it's worth.
Woof!
Woof!
Problem is he's not working for the country, like Mulroney before him his eyes are firmly fixed to the south dreaming about the Neo-con paradise he could turn Canada into if he ever got a majority.
Harris' "common sense revolution" would be a drop in the bucket compared to the changes we'd see.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,315
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 10th, 2007, 12:05 AM
Woof!
Quoting Cobalt_Kid
Considering the number of former Harris Tories (Harris was asked to disassociate himself) in his caucus/cabinet, I can well imagine what he'd have lurking for Canadians.
Harper is hard at work.
Problem is he's not working for the country, like Mulroney before him his eyes are firmly fixed to the south dreaming about the Neo-con paradise he could turn Canada into if he ever got a majority.
Harris' "common sense revolution" would be a drop in the bucket compared to the changes we'd see.
Problem is he's not working for the country, like Mulroney before him his eyes are firmly fixed to the south dreaming about the Neo-con paradise he could turn Canada into if he ever got a majority.
Harris' "common sense revolution" would be a drop in the bucket compared to the changes we'd see.
Woof!
Council Member
Posts: 1,822
November 10th, 2007, 06:56 AM
Quoting Cobalt_Kid
I hate it when they tax me less.
I know I'm tired of seeing ads attacking the opposition leader when the minority government is doing everything it can to waste taxpayers money and the time of Parliment.
Council Member
Posts: 1,822
November 10th, 2007, 06:58 AM
Quoting Cobalt_Kid
Hope you're right; Harris was the best leader we had in Ontario in my lifetime, and I ain't that young.
Harris' "common sense revolution" would be a drop in the bucket compared to the changes we'd see.
