sick and twisted
Posts: 2,536 
Location: Backwater, Ontario.
Location: Backwater, Ontario.
September 13th, 2007, 08:08 AM
Canada will be voting against the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Thursday.
Indian Affairs Minister Chuck Strahl and Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier say Canada opposes the declaration because it lacks clear guidance for implementation and goes against Canada's Constitution.
The two ministers also say in a statement, released late Wednesday, that the document doesn't recognize Canada's need to balance indigenous rights with those of others.
The government supports the spirit and intent of the declaration, but says more negotiations are needed.
The non-binding declaration is expected to be easily approved, with only Canada, New Zealand, the United States and Australia dissenting.
Human rights groups have slammed Canada's bid to derail the declaration, saying Ottawa is trying to keep control of the vast resources on land claimed by aboriginal communities".QUOTE.
Some balance of "rights" would be appreciated.
Canada will be voting against the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Thursday.
Indian Affairs Minister Chuck Strahl and Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier say Canada opposes the declaration because it lacks clear guidance for implementation and goes against Canada's Constitution.
The two ministers also say in a statement, released late Wednesday, that the document doesn't recognize Canada's need to balance indigenous rights with those of others.
The government supports the spirit and intent of the declaration, but says more negotiations are needed.
The non-binding declaration is expected to be easily approved, with only Canada, New Zealand, the United States and Australia dissenting.
Human rights groups have slammed Canada's bid to derail the declaration, saying Ottawa is trying to keep control of the vast resources on land claimed by aboriginal communities".QUOTE.
Some balance of "rights" would be appreciated.
House Member
Posts: 3,373
September 13th, 2007, 08:31 AM
I think its funny we are all for universal rights declarations to other displaced peoples, without ever checking how the countries involved work.
But when its time for us to go with the same US meddling we shove down everyone else throats "But..but we have our own constitutions..."
So does everyone else when we meddle in their countries.
I think its funny we are all for universal rights declarations to other displaced peoples, without ever checking how the countries involved work.
But when its time for us to go with the same US meddling we shove down everyone else throats "But..but we have our own constitutions..."
So does everyone else when we meddle in their countries.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
September 13th, 2007, 08:33 AM
Why didn't we just do what we always do? Sign the resolution and fail to implement it properly? We could have saved a lot of face that way. Then in five years the Senate could release a report entitled "Rights of the Indigenous" that could address this but go largely ignored.
Thanks for the info Oldnugly, I'm off to look for the declaration now.
Why didn't we just do what we always do? Sign the resolution and fail to implement it properly? We could have saved a lot of face that way. Then in five years the Senate could release a report entitled "Rights of the Indigenous" that could address this but go largely ignored.
Thanks for the info Oldnugly, I'm off to look for the declaration now.
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
September 13th, 2007, 08:47 AM
Not to worry - soon we'll be able to purchase proposals to the U.N. at our local Wal*Mart stores - they are toothless other than generate a day's worth of press whether accepted or rejected and whammo .... gone into the night...
If any nation goes against the U.N. on a Resolution - we all know twelve years later nothing has been done - (think Iraq)....
Save Money - fire the U.N. leeches and get some intellect going to get the earth back on track not these 'diplomatic ballet dancers'.
Not to worry - soon we'll be able to purchase proposals to the U.N. at our local Wal*Mart stores - they are toothless other than generate a day's worth of press whether accepted or rejected and whammo .... gone into the night...
If any nation goes against the U.N. on a Resolution - we all know twelve years later nothing has been done - (think Iraq)....
Save Money - fire the U.N. leeches and get some intellect going to get the earth back on track not these 'diplomatic ballet dancers'.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
September 13th, 2007, 08:58 AM
I don't know, Hans Blix's report was quite thorough in what had occurred in Iraq with regards to de-weaponization after the gulf war. I recall reading it back in the early part of this decade and thinking that the people pushing for the war must not have read it. The "oil for food" programme came out of the UN in relation to sanctions which came out of the UN, both of which are widely believed to have had some pretty large fangs - for the people but not the government. There are a lot of complaints about the teeth that the UN sanctions on Iran have. Meanwhile things like Darfur and Rwanda happen in areas of the world that the security council isn't concerned with.
Of course, all of this might have something to do with differences between declarations and resolutions. It is really frustrating how easily the UN can pass crippling economic sanctions and yet can not seem to make any positive changes very easily.
I don't know, Hans Blix's report was quite thorough in what had occurred in Iraq with regards to de-weaponization after the gulf war. I recall reading it back in the early part of this decade and thinking that the people pushing for the war must not have read it. The "oil for food" programme came out of the UN in relation to sanctions which came out of the UN, both of which are widely believed to have had some pretty large fangs - for the people but not the government. There are a lot of complaints about the teeth that the UN sanctions on Iran have. Meanwhile things like Darfur and Rwanda happen in areas of the world that the security council isn't concerned with.
Of course, all of this might have something to do with differences between declarations and resolutions. It is really frustrating how easily the UN can pass crippling economic sanctions and yet can not seem to make any positive changes very easily.
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
September 13th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Niflmir
Exactly - the vote and the result doesn't mean squat if someone isn't going to enforce the action.
Who would that be?
Diplomats have no idea how to enforce anything. They are best at socializing in far off exotic places, having great dinners and speakers, and talking talking talking.
Niflmir
Exactly - the vote and the result doesn't mean squat if someone isn't going to enforce the action.
Who would that be?
Diplomats have no idea how to enforce anything. They are best at socializing in far off exotic places, having great dinners and speakers, and talking talking talking.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
September 13th, 2007, 09:09 AM
Heck, until the UN starts to resemble a democratic organization, I don't really want them to have any mechanism for enforcement. Its frightening when you think about it, what tools of accountability do the people of the world hold in the face of the UN? The economic sanctions are too much in my mind, they only seem to generate a climate of desperation in the targeted nation where the nation becomes willing to sell its people out by auctioning off resources at unreasonable prices.
Heck, until the UN starts to resemble a democratic organization, I don't really want them to have any mechanism for enforcement. Its frightening when you think about it, what tools of accountability do the people of the world hold in the face of the UN? The economic sanctions are too much in my mind, they only seem to generate a climate of desperation in the targeted nation where the nation becomes willing to sell its people out by auctioning off resources at unreasonable prices.
September 13th, 2007, 02:58 PM
It disgusts me as a Canadian that all the governments of the day (the Liberals have ruled longest by the way and therefore had more opportunities to fix things) continue their shoddy treatments of aboriginal people. It doesn't matter what province or territory either. We continue an air of superiority over these first nation human beings. White folk are better and know best for our brothers.
We're hypocrites when we speak out so self-righteously against the way African nations or others mistreat their own citizens stuns me. The reserves we told these people to live on are wretched at best. We make jokes about Indian smokes and casinos. I'd be very cranky too if I was an aboriginal person. They were here long before the vikings or the Europeans. At least 12-15,000 years or more. Our governments give more rights to an accused pedophile or terrorist at times than they do the first peoples to settle this continent.
I say it's time to cut them some slack. Show decency and respect, not condescension.
Here's our latest proud moment:
Canada defends vote against UN declaration on aboriginal rights
UNITED NATIONS (CP) - Canada's ambassador to the United Nations has strongly defended Ottawa's decision to vote against a declaration that would support the human rights of indigenous peoples. John McNee told the UN General Assembly Thursday that Canada has "significant concerns with respect to the wording of the current text" of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
He said Canada is concerned about a number of issues, including provisions on lands, territories and resources.
"It's with disappointment that we find ourselves having to vote against the adoption of this declaration as drafted," McNee said.
The non-binding declaration was easily approved, passing
143 to four. Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the United States voted against and eleven countries abstained.
Human rights groups have slammed Canada's bid to derail the declaration, accusing the Canadian government of trying to keep control of the vast resources on land claimed by aboriginal communities.
The opposition parties condemned the Conservative government Thursday, accusing the governing Tories of embarrassing Canada internationally.
"By opposing this Declaration the Conservative government has signalled to Aboriginal Canadians that their rights aren't worth defending," Liberal leader Stephane Dion said in a statement. "The government has also dramatically weakened the leadership role Canada has long enjoyed in the global human rights movement."
"Clearly we can't trust the Harper Conservatives to make life fairer for aboriginal people in Canada," said NDP Aboriginal Affairs critic Jean Crowder in a release. "It's a sad day."
Critics have accused Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government of undermining a process supported by the Liberals.
The Conservatives have said the declaration is flawed, vague and open to broad interpretation. Provisions on lands and resources could be used "to support claims to broad ownership rights over traditional territories, even where rights... were lawfully ceded through treaty," said a synopsis of Canada's position on the Indian Affairs website.
The declaration sets out global human rights standards for indigenous populations.
Native groups, especially in developing countries, report abuse, land losses, disappearances and even murder at the hands of governments that refuse to recognize their status or title.
Pathetic
(Thanks to mods for moving my post here, I hadn't noticed this thread when I first ranted)
It disgusts me as a Canadian that all the governments of the day (the Liberals have ruled longest by the way and therefore had more opportunities to fix things) continue their shoddy treatments of aboriginal people. It doesn't matter what province or territory either. We continue an air of superiority over these first nation human beings. White folk are better and know best for our brothers.
We're hypocrites when we speak out so self-righteously against the way African nations or others mistreat their own citizens stuns me. The reserves we told these people to live on are wretched at best. We make jokes about Indian smokes and casinos. I'd be very cranky too if I was an aboriginal person. They were here long before the vikings or the Europeans. At least 12-15,000 years or more. Our governments give more rights to an accused pedophile or terrorist at times than they do the first peoples to settle this continent.
I say it's time to cut them some slack. Show decency and respect, not condescension.
Here's our latest proud moment:
Canada defends vote against UN declaration on aboriginal rights
UNITED NATIONS (CP) - Canada's ambassador to the United Nations has strongly defended Ottawa's decision to vote against a declaration that would support the human rights of indigenous peoples. John McNee told the UN General Assembly Thursday that Canada has "significant concerns with respect to the wording of the current text" of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
He said Canada is concerned about a number of issues, including provisions on lands, territories and resources.
"It's with disappointment that we find ourselves having to vote against the adoption of this declaration as drafted," McNee said.
The non-binding declaration was easily approved, passing
143 to four. Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the United States voted against and eleven countries abstained.
Human rights groups have slammed Canada's bid to derail the declaration, accusing the Canadian government of trying to keep control of the vast resources on land claimed by aboriginal communities.
The opposition parties condemned the Conservative government Thursday, accusing the governing Tories of embarrassing Canada internationally.
"By opposing this Declaration the Conservative government has signalled to Aboriginal Canadians that their rights aren't worth defending," Liberal leader Stephane Dion said in a statement. "The government has also dramatically weakened the leadership role Canada has long enjoyed in the global human rights movement."
"Clearly we can't trust the Harper Conservatives to make life fairer for aboriginal people in Canada," said NDP Aboriginal Affairs critic Jean Crowder in a release. "It's a sad day."
Critics have accused Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government of undermining a process supported by the Liberals.
The Conservatives have said the declaration is flawed, vague and open to broad interpretation. Provisions on lands and resources could be used "to support claims to broad ownership rights over traditional territories, even where rights... were lawfully ceded through treaty," said a synopsis of Canada's position on the Indian Affairs website.
The declaration sets out global human rights standards for indigenous populations.
Native groups, especially in developing countries, report abuse, land losses, disappearances and even murder at the hands of governments that refuse to recognize their status or title.
Pathetic
(Thanks to mods for moving my post here, I hadn't noticed this thread when I first ranted)
just special
Posts: 1,226
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Location: not in Kansas anymore
September 13th, 2007, 07:02 PM
The natives in Canada are treated better than the rest of Canadians right now. Why would we possibly give them another board to extort more money. As for the UN's credibility,Mugabe from Zimbabwe,chairs the commitee on sustainable development.
The natives in Canada are treated better than the rest of Canadians right now. Why would we possibly give them another board to extort more money. As for the UN's credibility,Mugabe from Zimbabwe,chairs the commitee on sustainable development.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 519
September 13th, 2007, 07:15 PM
You must live in an area without First Nations reserves or possibly aren't even Canadian at all based on some of the bizzare stuff you post.
Quoting wallyj
Several hundred reserves are under boil water advisories right now, natives have lower life expectantcy, higher unemployment, poorer health, higher levels of incarceration, low access to education and are dealing with the effects of generations institutionalized abuse, how are they better off than other Canadians.
The natives in Canada are treated better than the rest of Canadians right now. Why would we possibly give them another board to extort more money. As for the UN's credibility,Mugabe from Zimbabwe,chairs the commitee on sustainable development.
You must live in an area without First Nations reserves or possibly aren't even Canadian at all based on some of the bizzare stuff you post.
September 13th, 2007, 07:23 PM
Having lived around two poor reserves, and one rich one, the variance in racism was astounding. So long as the natives were all poor and in their place, everyone was more than content. But GAWD forbid one family manage their money well and build a nice house... the whole community was up in arms. I even knew one fellow who didn't hesitate to steal from his employer, Doig River Enterprises, because 'the government buys them everything anyway.' The racist citizenry HATES when people effectively use what is theirs. If they squander it all on bingo and booze, it makes it okay in some twisted way. I've never quite figured it out.
Quoting Cobalt_Kid
The sentiment expressed by Wally is the sort of thing you tend to hear around reservations that are properly managed. If their houses are nice, their vehicles are all running, and they don't sit around their destroyed yards getting drunk for all the world to see, then they MUST be living high on the hog at our expense.
You must live in an area without First Nations reserves or possibly aren't even Canadian at all based on some of the bizzare stuff you post.
Having lived around two poor reserves, and one rich one, the variance in racism was astounding. So long as the natives were all poor and in their place, everyone was more than content. But GAWD forbid one family manage their money well and build a nice house... the whole community was up in arms. I even knew one fellow who didn't hesitate to steal from his employer, Doig River Enterprises, because 'the government buys them everything anyway.' The racist citizenry HATES when people effectively use what is theirs. If they squander it all on bingo and booze, it makes it okay in some twisted way. I've never quite figured it out.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 519
September 13th, 2007, 08:14 PM
Having lived all over BC I've seen many different reserves and even the ones that are better off still have serious problems to deal with. Some people like to blame the First Nations people for their problems forgetting about how much has been taken away from them and the stigma that still attaches to being native.
I wonder how many non-natives would feel about someone else coming in and telling them they couldn't celebrate their culture or speak their language and they needed to send their children off to schools where they often faced sexual and physical assault. Anyone in this country who thinks natives have it better than they deserve is a racist.
Having lived all over BC I've seen many different reserves and even the ones that are better off still have serious problems to deal with. Some people like to blame the First Nations people for their problems forgetting about how much has been taken away from them and the stigma that still attaches to being native.
I wonder how many non-natives would feel about someone else coming in and telling them they couldn't celebrate their culture or speak their language and they needed to send their children off to schools where they often faced sexual and physical assault. Anyone in this country who thinks natives have it better than they deserve is a racist.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,384
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
September 13th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Imagine if we took every child of an immigrant away and forced them to become good christian english speakers. Would put an end to immigration and all the neocons and neocon wannabees would be happy.
This is a black mark for Canada.
Imagine if we took every child of an immigrant away and forced them to become good christian english speakers. Would put an end to immigration and all the neocons and neocon wannabees would be happy.
This is a black mark for Canada.
September 13th, 2007, 08:56 PM
I feel it doesn't bode well for the world view. But at the same time, it doesn't mean the country will necessarily do nothing. But doing so in clearly defined terms, and in a way that is decided upon by our own people might be a good idea. I don't know how I would feel, if I were a first nations person, about the UN coming in and writing up resolutions for me without necessarily seeking my opinion. Ultimately I guess I just don't know enough of the precise wording and impact of the resolution to know FOR SURE it's the right thing for our people, first nations included.
I feel it doesn't bode well for the world view. But at the same time, it doesn't mean the country will necessarily do nothing. But doing so in clearly defined terms, and in a way that is decided upon by our own people might be a good idea. I don't know how I would feel, if I were a first nations person, about the UN coming in and writing up resolutions for me without necessarily seeking my opinion. Ultimately I guess I just don't know enough of the precise wording and impact of the resolution to know FOR SURE it's the right thing for our people, first nations included.
just special
Posts: 1,226
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Location: not in Kansas anymore
September 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM
Quoting Cobalt_Kid
No.in fact I live close to more than a few reserves. In fact,I have been on a reserve or three. In fact,I have lived with a native woman and her 2 children for four years. In fact,when I speak on native issues I am talking from first-hand experience not the pie-in-the-sky view of others. Point#1- Several hundred under boil water!!! No,there is about 30. The reason that a reserve is having water problems while the community down the road does not can be usually traced to the fact that the reserve has not properly maintained the equipment. Point#2- Lower life expectancy and poorer health- Yes,and much of that is self induced. Have you ever seen how much salt they use,along with a general disregard for any positive health patterns. Point#3- You do the crime,you do the time. If they were not given so much leeway in sentencing there would be many more in jail.Point#4- institutional abuse,except for those who benefitted,that has some legs. they are doing so well on thier own. ....The only way the natives will improve is to pull themselves off the victimhood train and help themselves. They have schools but thier peer group tells them that whiteys school is useless and do not make thier children attend. So,tell me,what are your solutions,beside give more money?
Several hundred reserves are under boil water advisories right now, natives have lower life expectantcy, higher unemployment, poorer health, higher levels of incarceration, low access to education and are dealing with the effects of generations institutionalized abuse, how are they better off than other Canadians.
You must live in an area without First Nations reserves or possibly aren't even Canadian at all based on some of the bizzare stuff you post.
You must live in an area without First Nations reserves or possibly aren't even Canadian at all based on some of the bizzare stuff you post.
Electoral Member
Posts: 676
September 13th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Thank God that someone like Cobalt lives this day.
Yes, I agree 100%.
But we know that money doesn't solve the problems all the time, never.
This problem exist in United States, Australia, and I don't know others.
I think there is a trend here why many native/aboriginal people would put themselves in such a state such as drunk and series of depression.
Are the immigrants/white european nations to blame for this or is it aboriginals incompetence to fix themselves?
I will choose the foreign invasion and discrimination against other culture,
Thank God that someone like Cobalt lives this day.
Yes, I agree 100%.
But we know that money doesn't solve the problems all the time, never.
This problem exist in United States, Australia, and I don't know others.
I think there is a trend here why many native/aboriginal people would put themselves in such a state such as drunk and series of depression.
Are the immigrants/white european nations to blame for this or is it aboriginals incompetence to fix themselves?
I will choose the foreign invasion and discrimination against other culture,
