Canada and natives

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
What is the solution to the native problems in this country?

Specific land claims alone are going to run us at least 25 billion, and require a massive army of lawyers and researchers to get through- that's just the backlog, not to mention all the new claims comming in all the time. Native poverty on reserves, high suicide rates, angry native protests et cetera, et cetera are really difficult problems to solve with the existing system. Natives are given preferential tax breaks and educational and employment opportunity, special hunting and fishing rights that other Canadians don't get, why haven't they benefitted from the opportunities of Canada and their special place in it?

What steps should Canada take to improve the condition of natives? What should the natives themselves do?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Because changes don't happen overnight. Even with those breaks it still takes generations to fix problems.

Sorry, there is no magic fix. Perhaps if we hadn't broken our own laws in the first place..or more evilly never decided non-whites need rights and legal protection too, we wouldnt' be in this mess. Well, tough. Things you do wrong come back to haunt you. Perhaps at the least we shouldn't have written such stupid treaties (meaning we would have had to have planned to honour them)


We should honour our committments (no matter how expensive, I can't get out of mine by saying..you know what? honouring my contracts costs too much, sorry bank you don't get your money). And then the natives should do what they want. If they still have high suicide rates and low employment, its not our business once our treaties (ie contracts) are being fulfilled.
 

lena

Electoral Member
Feb 20, 2005
131
1
18
ab
I don't know maybe one should stop saying "we" "they"....Not sure but that seems to be a separation of persons..Who is we and who is they..We as in Canadians or We as in?? Just throwing that out there
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
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Honour our Fallen
We steal the land off them and then some idiot wants us to tax em to live here....not seen that here yet but I've seen it about....
It's embarrassing for crying out loud....We should be bending over backwards and pour money into education and a better quality of living...plain and simple....do that with the riches we are taking out of their land...they were here for 25 thousand years.....we come and wipe em out and justify it with bringing them them the bible....oh man thats rich.
Like hey here is the big book what more do you want....
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
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Vancouver Island
It will be a huge mess for many years to come, but what else could it be. If we had have made a fair deal with them when we came here, and treated them with respect, perhaps the situation today would be more settled.
I am embarrassed and ashamed at the way we came into 'their' country and pushed and shoved and
insulted and killed them for many years. We were the more advanced people, should have been more
intelligent, and probably were, but we were definitely not thoughtful or respectful, just bullyish and
greedy.
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
67
48
Honour our Fallen
It will be a huge mess for many years to come, but what else could it be. If we had have made a fair deal with them when we came here, and treated them with respect, perhaps the situation today would be more settled.
I am embarrassed and ashamed at the way we came into 'their' country and pushed and shoved and
insulted and killed them for many years. We were the more advanced people, should have been more
intelligent, and probably were, but we were definitely not thoughtful or respectful, just bullyish and
greedy.
You know when ever i think about Tibet and China's occupation, there is this part of me that reflects exactly what you just wrote. This part of me then sees them saying"Hey you did it... why can't we". And I think thats why the west does not rise up like it did for south Africa.
 

Fain

New Member
Jul 7, 2007
15
0
1
It will be a huge mess for many years to come, but what else could it be. If we had have made a fair deal with them when we came here, and treated them with respect, perhaps the situation today would be more settled.
I am embarrassed and ashamed at the way we came into 'their' country and pushed and shoved and
insulted and killed them for many years. We were the more advanced people, should have been more
intelligent, and probably were, but we were definitely not thoughtful or respectful, just bullyish and
greedy.

That was a sloppy mess right there. "WE"!!!??? lol do not say "WE", never say "WE". Your lumping in 99.9% of Canadians who haven't taken a single bit of land from them at all. Why should new immigrants upon settling into Canada pay aboriginals for land they didn't take.

I was born in 1987, should i have to pay natives for land i didnt take?

What's done is done and there should be no handouts. Nothing wrong in being equal to a Canadian
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
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Why should new Immigrants pay? They chose to. They chose to come to a country, AGREED and SOUGHT out citizenship in that country and bear all responsibilities of being a citizen. Its not like our government sneaks into the night and abducts foriegners. God knows my ancestors never did anything. More importantly **I** never did anything.

I also didn't vote for our constitution or our laws. I just accept they were grandfathered in and it is my duty to obey the law and uphold any contracts signed in the past.

As for "we", alot of treaties specified that they were not part of the same country. It would be like America telling us "Why can't we all be equally American's?"

IF you were born in 1987 that means you didn't vote for the charter of rights and freedoms, So im guessing you forfeit all protection from it as well then right?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
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Ottawa, ON
Ah those pesky natives! Why don't they all go back to their own country and leave us alone.

You see, that's the problem with immigrants. They crossed the Bearing Straight a few thousand years ago, and they're still giving us head aches. That's why we shouldn't accept immigrants.

Hey, I know, we should have shot them years ago before plitical correctness and human rights raised their ugly heads. You see all those problems liberals get us in.

Now they expect us to acknowledge that the natives are human! And you know what that means: respecting and honouring agreements, and all that pesky stuff. Why should we honour historical agreements when we have the military clout and they're helpless before us? Have we really become such softies?

Kick 'em while they're down, that's what I say.
 

Johnnny

Frontiersman
Jun 8, 2007
9,388
124
63
Third rock from the Sun
I hear that natives get there college and university paid for, first natives should take advantage of that. They pay lower taxes and that should help. First and foremost more natives should have the initiative to graduate from college and/or university. If my school was paid for and i never paid taxes id be a engineer and rocket scientist by now.

Land claims we should honour the vast majority of land claims but white people and yes other non-natives not just whites dont want to be evicted from the land they got from the government that will eventually be given to the natives, irony? Regardless we are going to have to share the land.Now if we wanna work together.

I know many natives and alot fo them arent racist towards white people they dont even care about the land claims or past and just want to be cool with everyone. While on the other hand some small communities you can smell the racism between the natives and non-natives.

Also what abou the exploraton companies in the north opening up mines near or on reserves you know what they hire most of the native community to work at the mine and they pour money into the reserve its happening the minng sector hires alot of natives specifically cause there native and because the mining is on or near the reserve.

And what about Nunuvat i thought that territory was specifically for representing native culture?

And yes the resevres need more money in them and i believe this is the major problem.

And native representatives have stated in the past they want there reserves taken care of and that canadians should understand this. Thats all they want, only the extremists want more land the majority of them just want better living conditions
 
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talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
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Vancouver Island
That was a sloppy mess right there. "WE"!!!??? lol do not say "WE", never say "WE". Your lumping in 99.9% of Canadians who haven't taken a single bit of land from them at all. Why should new immigrants upon settling into Canada pay aboriginals for land they didn't take.

I was born in 1987, should i have to pay natives for land i didnt take?

What's done is done and there should be no handouts. Nothing wrong in being equal to a Canadian

Yes it is 'we', and 'we' all should be classy enough to know that, unless of course you are a immigrant,
of later years.

I am of English/Irish heritage, and I take responsibility for the British who came here with a greedy
and mean nature. Anyone who wants to step out of that obvious place in history, go ahead. Just
because it is now 2007, there is absolutely no reason to say we owe them nothing. We took so much
from them, and most of all, their dignity.

We can now stand up and try to make up for some of that mistreatment, and not, deny them any
longer.

Of course they can't have all of their country back, that would be impossible, but they have to have
a fair share, so that life can go on, without 'they' and 'us' having ill feelings toward each other.
When I was a kid I heard all of the slander and name calling thrown at the 'native' people, it took me
many years, and maturity to realize how to put all of that in the right order.

If I had my heritage taken away, told it was against the law to speak my own language, my children
taken away and put in white orphanages, etc etc, I would have a dark feeling inside of me for many
generations toward whoever did that to me and my family and my descendents.

We can't pretend it doesn't belong to us just because it's now 2007. Step up, and do the right thing.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
You know when ever i think about Tibet and China's occupation, there is this part of me that reflects exactly what you just wrote. This part of me then sees them saying"Hey you did it... why can't we". And I think thats why the west does not rise up like it did for south Africa.

That is very true, I agree
 
May 28, 2007
3,866
67
48
Honour our Fallen
Look even the Pope finnaly apologised to Galileo.
If your a Catholic one must take responsability for wrongs made hundres of years ago.
A country is not a moment to moment facade. One has a history to learn from.
There is a collective responsability to be held accounted for.If we allow the likes of ipperwash to get brushed under the rug...which i feel Harris really got lucky here, somehow :roll:.....then what are we as a nation?

As for the natives coming over here 25 thousand years ago and creating a nation,they were taken over by European Law...Laws that allowed Europeans to take from the savages what they desired.They viewed them as sub human heathens. All very neatly tied into the bible.Hell look at the slave trade......Slaves were legal chattel....Hell when we went to the moon and planted the flag it was a legal issue as to ownership, and the power to retain ownership.
there is a piece of barren ice inbetween greenland and Canada .Both Denmark and Canada keep replacing their flag......
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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As for not evicting people from native land.

Who said anything about that? Just because its native land doesn't mean you can't own it. What it means is that the government sold land it didn't own. Meaning at the least it needs to give fair market value back to the natives.

You may say "this will hurt our taxes!". Well, much of the reason Canada is wealthy is the infrastructure it invested in previously. Infrastructure which was at least partially funded with cash from Native Property.

So its just paying the piper, no different than having to pay off a credit card rather than just buying things till the end of time without ever paying. It sucks when the bill comes due.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
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A country is not a moment to moment facade. One has a history to learn from.
There is a collective responsability to be held accounted for
My family is from Norway and I'd just like to apologize to all the Irish descendants here on behalf of my family for raping and pillaging your villages way back.....

We victimized them by taking their land, giving them small pox (intentionally) and we continue to victimize them by giving them handouts. Welfare hand outs breeds the same mentality no matter the colour of skin you have. It doesn't work in the way it's intended.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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100
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Put aside them being natives.

If they were just a normal group of white Canadians with contracts with the government (Whether or not you like them they were signed and they lived up to their end).

Would you still think of them as "handouts". If you work in the army and cash a paycheck is that a handout? The government is giving you things for free..and all because you lived up to your end of a binding contract, you know..proving what you said you would in return for the rewards previously agreed upon.

This isn't a handout, thats like saying a paycheck is a handout. Its a contract, their end is fulfilled, the governments end is not. If they were not natives, I doubt it would be an issue.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
Except that there is a large population of natives accepting a welfare chq because they are native...not because of a contract signed....
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
No, they accept a welfare check because they fulfill the same conditions for it as anyone else.

If you wish to make them exempt from our laws im sure they wouldn't need welfare within a week. But as they obey our laws and are citizens, they have the same rights and privelages (such as welfare) as all citizens under the same restrictions.

If you are saying remove welfare period, thats fine, that isn't a native issue.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
If you are saying remove welfare period, thats fine, that isn't a native issue.

If you go back to my original post what I'm saying is posted right there
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
Put aside them being natives.

If they were just a normal group of white Canadians with contracts with the government (Whether or not you like them they were signed and they lived up to their end).

Would you still think of them as "handouts". If you work in the army and cash a paycheck is that a handout? The government is giving you things for free..and all because you lived up to your end of a binding contract, you know..proving what you said you would in return for the rewards previously agreed upon.

This isn't a handout, thats like saying a paycheck is a handout. Its a contract, their end is fulfilled, the governments end is not. If they were not natives, I doubt it would be an issue.

On just the issue of specific land claims- an enormous backlog of cases (over 800) and the dozens of new cases coming in every year (around 60 per year) and with the enormous amount of time and money involved with researching the cases and coming to an agreement, about 14 cases are settled each year for an average of $26 million, some cases have been in negotiation for 20 years- it is clear that if nothing changes with the way things are done specific land claims will not be resolved for hundreds of years! Comprehensive claims (like the Nunavit claim) have their own horrendous backlog.

There is alos the issues of reserve poverty and corruption lack of opportunity on reserves, lack of education among reserve natives and on and on.


My proposal:

1) pay off all native Specific land claims (20- 30 billion)
2) make all future payments to natives to individuals rather than to reserves or band councils
3) adequately staff land claim offices/ initiate binding settlement tribunal

I don't want Canada not honouring it's responsibilities, I also don't want Canada dragged down by this issue any longer, settle it already.