Too much Money on Native Issues?

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Are we spending too much money on First Nation Issues?

http://tinyurl.com/y9tpk4

With over $6 billion in transfers for First Nations and Aboriginal peoples (bringing total federal spending in this area to some $9 billion, not including anything the provinces might kick in annually. There are approximately 733,626 first nations people in Canada. This makes the amount per first nations man, woman, and child, about $12,267.00, or $49,068.00 tax free, for a family of four. I know the native people don't get this money but it is being spent/wasted, squandered, on their behalf.

Does anyone else think this kind of spending on one group of people is extreme?
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Juan

With over $6 billion in transfers for First Nations and Aboriginal peoples (bringing total federal spending in this area to some $9 billion, not including anything the provinces might kick in annually. There are approximately 733,626 first nations people in Canada. This makes the amount per first nations man, woman, and child, about $12,267.00, or $49,068.00 tax free, for a family of four. I know the native people don't get this money but it is being spent/wasted, squandered, on their behalf.

Juan are the figures you quoted for population 733,626 for all First Nations People or those who
choose to remain on reservations?

Same with the amounts received per person: If they live and work in among the rest of population do
they still get that stipend from the government?
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
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I think your numbers are low on both counts. I have always understood that the status indians are approx.3% of the population,roughly 1.5 million.Also,the INA budget is closer to 9 bills.Of course there is a plethora of other costs due to thier disproportionate numbers in the social programs and court systems etc.
 

cortex

Electoral Member
Aug 3, 2006
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From what i can see---they see virtually none of that cash
l
Why is it that native canadians arent even allowed to live in homes unless they are made of plywood?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
Are we spending too much money on First Nation Issues?

http://tinyurl.com/y9tpk4

With over $6 billion in transfers for First Nations and Aboriginal peoples (bringing total federal spending in this area to some $9 billion, not including anything the provinces might kick in annually. There are approximately 733,626 first nations people in Canada. This makes the amount per first nations man, woman, and child, about $12,267.00, or $49,068.00 tax free, for a family of four. I know the native people don't get this money but it is being spent/wasted, squandered, on their behalf.

Does anyone else think this kind of spending on one group of people is extreme?
Well Juan, why don't you write your favourite Liberal. I have been to Ottawa twice with evidence in hand on the questionable missappropriation of funds allocated to one counsil by our province leaders only to have them illegally remove part of those funds at a later date, without any evidence that the money's were used for our counsil and have heard nothing back from the two consecutive Liberal governemnts on that issue.

Juan

Juan are the figures you quoted for population 733,626 for all First Nations People or those who
choose to remain on reservations?

Same with the amounts received per person: If they live and work in among the rest of population do
they still get that stipend from the government?
I don't see a dime WC. I as do many others, work for a living and fend for ourselves. No stereotypes here.

I think your numbers are low on both counts. I have always understood that the status indians are approx.3% of the population,roughly 1.5 million.Also,the INA budget is closer to 9 bills.Of course there is a plethora of other costs due to thier disproportionate numbers in the social programs and court systems etc.
Costs such as redecorating the offices of the minister of Indian affairs, as well as travel to and from seminars and simposiums, make work projects that over lap and in some cases create fighting between different government agencies that eventually ruin the projects, over staffing offices in Ottawa, generating papers and studies that end up in a cabinete somewhere rotting etc.
From what i can see---they see virtually none of that cash
l
Why is it that native canadians arent even allowed to live in homes unless they are made of plywood?
Wow cortex, have you actually seen one. The common size around the 70's was 15x20 feet, not plywood on the wall, just the roof, tar paper cladding on the outside, press panelling walls on the inside. No sources of heat, hence the continuous fires that broke out due to 45 gallon drum wood burning stoves catching fire.
You were very close.
 

cortex

Electoral Member
Aug 3, 2006
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Well Juan, why don't you write your favourite Liberal. I have been to Ottawa twice with evidence in hand on the questionable missappropriation of funds allocated to one counsil by our province leaders only to have them illegally remove part of those funds at a later date, without any evidence that the money's were used for our counsil and have heard nothing back from the two consecutive Liberal governemnts on that issue.


I don't see a dime WC. I as do many others, work for a living and fend for ourselves. No stereotypes here.


Costs such as redecorating the offices of the minister of Indian affairs, as well as travel to and from seminars and simposiums, make work projects that over lap and in some cases create fighting between different government agencies that eventually ruin the projects, over staffing offices in Ottawa, generating papers and studies that end up in a cabinete somewhere rotting etc.

Wow cortex, have you actually seen one. The common size around the 70's was 15x20 feet, not plywood on the wall, just the roof, tar paper cladding on the outside, press panelling walls on the inside. No sources of heat, hence the continuous fires that broke out due to 45 gallon drum wood burning stoves catching fire.
You were very close.

i have seen one. I dont even know what plywood is---
but the ones i saw didnt even seem like REAL house--just bare bones almost squalid boxes---

its a disgrace

Although I believe one of the worst things you could do to a person is pay them to do nothing---native canadians can be seen to be legitimate OWNERS of this land--all of it---unless one believes that the colonisation of what is now canada was a CONQUEST--which i think the average canadian( non native canadian) would deny

but if it was a negotiation with treaties etc---and then those treaties are not honored by the nonnatives---then isnt it defacto --a conquest?

doesnt most of this money " for natives" just end up being recirculated into the nonnative goverment beaurocrasy---isnt it really a welfare program for --
the nonnatives?
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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i have seen one. I dont even know what plywood is---
but the ones i saw didnt even seem like REAL house--just bare bones almost squalid boxes---

its a disgrace

Although I believe one of the worst things you could do to a person is pay them to do nothing---native canadians can be seen to be legitimate OWNERS of this land--all of it---unless one believes that the colonisation of what is now canada was a CONQUEST--which i think the average canadian( non native canadian) would deny

but if it was a negotiation with treaties etc---and then those treaties are not honored by the nonnatives---then isnt it defacto --a conquest?

doesnt most of this money " for natives" just end up being recirculated into the nonnative goverment beaurocrasy---isnt it really a welfare program for --
the nonnatives?
Yes to pretty much everything you've said.

It has always amazed me how when provided with proof of missapropriation of funds, the government(liberal), did nothing. Not even ask the individual in question, for an explanation.

the houses of some of the chiefs though, are rather sweet. Go figure. Same with the family and friends of said chiefs.

Not all reservation homes were shyte. Some were rather nice homes, that the Natives ruines themselves. Further propogating that ugly stereo type. Most those homes are long since gone, but were more used on remote or out the way reservations.

Personally, I enjoyed my childhood, it was a lot like Little House on the Prarie. Character building as well, but only with the right role models, another problem on the reservations.

Cortex, I have challenged my people, I have chastised, rocked the boat, shock the tree, but as long as the Feds are willing to give away money for nothing, my words garner only hate and resentment. As well as death thraets. lol.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Nobody can say this money hasn't been spent. I've been doing some more reading and the native population might be higher by a couple hundred thousand but it doesn't change that much. We could still give every native family of four close to forty thousand a year. In fact, I would much rather do that than have the money wasted by incompetents in the Dept.Of Northern And Indian Affairs. Shut that whitr elephant down. The sooner the better.

BTW, the houses that were built near James bay for the families of the kids who were sniffing gas, were beautiful, modern homes. Have a look at them now.

There are many houses that were built for first nations people in the B.C. interior that were sturdy, modern, homes as well. They were junk in three or four years.
 

cortex

Electoral Member
Aug 3, 2006
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Perhaps its multifactorial. Its not just about money. I did have the opportuniuty to work in Inuvik for a few weeks. In my contact with many native Canadians there one of the things that struck me about many of them was this pervasive lack of self esteem--this nihilism---I found it depressing. maybe this is the root cause---that in some ways the european intervention here has destroyed a culture---a social fabric that cant seem to repair itself and that a whole pile of money alone cant solve. It may sound corny but despite Canada 's wonderfull self image----and considering that these problems are so intractable--Canada-- is very much a fractured nation---its bleeding and much of that bleeding is done by the natives--. It must also be insulting that the fracture line is most often percieved as between the french and english--ie two " white tribes "----what are they arguing about----how to spilt up the spoils of conquest?

Oh--one more random thought----the contrast in the gut feeling that many middle class canadians have between here and south of here. IE---when considering say---any south american country many can easily be persuaded that the fault for the substandard living conditions of the native lies squarely with the european invader--ie--the spanish and portugeese--and yet HERE the fault lies with the natives. isnt that odd?
 
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#juan

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cortex

We have done the worst thing possible to the indigenous people in Canada. By making them wards of the state, we robbed them of their initiative. The luckiest were those who got away from the system and made it on their own. I don't hate the natives. I hate throwing hard earned dollars away for no good reason.
 

RomSpaceKnight

Council Member
Oct 30, 2006
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Typical goverment waste will eat up huge chunks of budgets on such issues as redcorating offices and business luncheons. Yes the colonization of Canada was an invasion. While not as evil as the military conquest of the American west, we still missappropriated natives lands, infected them with communicable disease, herded them on to reservations, took advantage of a people with an oral tradition by having them sign away land rights. Eventually we took away their children and forceably tried to assimilate them in to white culture. Can you imagine if every immigrant had their children taken from them until they learned English and became Christian. You get much further than 200 mikles from US border in Canada and all you have is natives and a few miners. The Rangers are Canada's largest military unit. They exert our sovereignty over the north. Without them the Yanks would be drilling all over the place. What is the price on 400 years of abuse and neglect?
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
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It's a lot easier for the government to heave large amounts of the taxpayers money at the native problem than it is to try to fix it. It;s like hucking rolls of quarters at an alcoholic friend instead of trying to help him put his life back to gether.

The money does not work, it just allows those with problems to continue to finance those problems. The Natives in Canada need a Plan, not a Paycheck.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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152 million dollars to re-locate less than 600 native Innu from Davis Inlet.........do the math, that is $250,000+ for every man, womaqn, and child, and NONE of the problems solved. Lovely homes built, now wrecked, sniffing still a major problem, and a band leadership claiming they are unable to produce receipts for their spending because they were stolen

"nuff said..
 

cortex

Electoral Member
Aug 3, 2006
418
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hopelessly entagled
cortex

We have done the worst thing possible to the indigenous people in Canada. By making them wards of the state, we robbed them of their initiative. The luckiest were those who got away from the system and made it on their own. I don't hate the natives. I hate throwing hard earned dollars away for no good reason.

I agree---I didnt say i thought you hate native canadians. And I agree that paying someone to do nothing is a horrible thing to do--perhaps that is the final phase of conquest. I did also observe during my brief stay in Inuvik that the Inuit were the best off--psychologically---and that was widely attributed to their relative independance and relative manitenance of their own traditional exixtence. However corny that sounds---isnt it better to be WITHIN ones own culture if that culture provides the customs and beliefs ways of being that make it possible to be independant , somewhat in control of ones future, and to have something to look forward to. The glue sniffing scenarios of native youth --to me--seem to be due to a collapse of an entire cultural apparatus that has resulted in a psychological collapse. Like any question the scientific attitude has to be adopted----so the really uncomfortable question is if an invading relatively advanced culture displaces and essentially destroys a pre-existing culture ---and later comes to regret it and feel guilty about it and wants to mend it---how does it do it ?---has THAT ever been done anywhere?
I dont know----
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
Nobody can say this money hasn't been spent. I've been doing some more reading and the native population might be higher by a couple hundred thousand but it doesn't change that much. We could still give every native family of four close to forty thousand a year. In fact, I would much rather do that than have the money wasted by incompetents in the Dept.Of Northern And Indian Affairs. Shut that whitr elephant down. The sooner the better.

BTW, the houses that were built near James bay for the families of the kids who were sniffing gas, were beautiful, modern homes. Have a look at them now.

There are many houses that were built for first nations people in the B.C. interior that were sturdy, modern, homes as well. They were junk in three or four years.

Absolutely true, and a complete shame. A lot of that stems from the lack of ownership amunst the psycy of tribal ideology. But I beleive it is more like a complete disregard for the value of anything, based solely on the fact that handouts come easy, even easier when the screaming starts.

Perhaps its multifactorial. Its not just about money. I did have the opportuniuty to work in Inuvik for a few weeks. In my contact with many native Canadians there one of the things that struck me about many of them was this pervasive lack of self esteem--this nihilism---I found it depressing. maybe this is the root cause---that in some ways the european intervention here has destroyed a culture---a social fabric that cant seem to repair itself and that a whole pile of money alone cant solve. It may sound corny but despite Canada 's wonderfull self image----and considering that these problems are so intractable--Canada-- is very much a fractured nation---its bleeding and much of that bleeding is done by the natives--. It must also be insulting that the fracture line is most often percieved as between the french and english--ie two " white tribes "----what are they arguing about----how to spilt up the spoils of conquest?

Oh--one more random thought----the contrast in the gut feeling that many middle class canadians have between here and south of here. IE---when considering say---any south american country many can easily be persuaded that the fault for the substandard living conditions of the native lies squarely with the european invader--ie--the spanish and portugeese--and yet HERE the fault lies with the natives. isnt that odd?

Because we look at ourselves through rose coloured glasses.

We have done the worst thing possible to the indigenous people in Canada. By making them wards of the state, we robbed them of their initiative. The luckiest were those who got away from the system and made it on their own. I don't hate the natives. I hate throwing hard earned dollars away for no good reason.
For someone I rarely agree with, you seem to be on the ball here.

But throwing money at the problem is an easy solution. The harder one looks like racism, and will be tagged as such by those that do not want to get up from the mire and do something. They will undoubtedly be supported by the professional activists and the corrupt leadership that will see their cash cow heading for slaughter.

Typical goverment waste will eat up huge chunks of budgets on such issues as redcorating offices and business luncheons. Yes the colonization of Canada was an invasion. While not as evil as the military conquest of the American west, we still missappropriated natives lands, infected them with communicable disease, herded them on to reservations, took advantage of a people with an oral tradition by having them sign away land rights. Eventually we took away their children and forceably tried to assimilate them in to white culture. Can you imagine if every immigrant had their children taken from them until they learned English and became Christian. You get much further than 200 mikles from US border in Canada and all you have is natives and a few miners. The Rangers are Canada's largest military unit. They exert our sovereignty over the north. Without them the Yanks would be drilling all over the place. What is the price on 400 years of abuse and neglect?
Another trusim. The buracratic waste is enormous. The funds eaten up in retrofitting offices is inexcusable and a heavey cost. But so are the endless make work projects continuously supported by our leadership, only because of their cut of the proceeds.

It's a lot easier for the government to heave large amounts of the taxpayers money at the native problem than it is to try to fix it. It;s like hucking rolls of quarters at an alcoholic friend instead of trying to help him put his life back to gether.

The money does not work, it just allows those with problems to continue to finance those problems. The Natives in Canada need a Plan, not a Paycheck.
Yes, but the real solution is a huge horse pill, that will not readily be seen as a good bit of medicine.

152 million dollars to re-locate less than 600 native Innu from Davis Inlet.........do the math, that is $250,000+ for every man, womaqn, and child, and NONE of the problems solved. Lovely homes built, now wrecked, sniffing still a major problem, and a band leadership claiming they are unable to produce receipts for their spending because they were stolen

"nuff said..
As usual, you are right on the mark. As an activist that neither agrees with either side, I feel helpless and alone. If not for the support our small groups has recieved from some of our perspective constituants, we would be completely lost.

I agree---I didnt say i thought you hate native canadians. And I agree that paying someone to do nothing is a horrible thing to do--perhaps that is the final phase of conquest. I did also observe during my brief stay in Inuvik that the Inuit were the best off--psychologically---and that was widely attributed to their relative independance and relative manitenance of their own traditional exixtence. However corny that sounds---isnt it better to be WITHIN ones own culture if that culture provides the customs and beliefs ways of being that make it possible to be independant , somewhat in control of ones future, and to have something to look forward to. The glue sniffing scenarios of native youth --to me--seem to be due to a collapse of an entire cultural apparatus that has resulted in a psychological collapse. Like any question the scientific attitude has to be adopted----so the really uncomfortable question is if an invading relatively advanced culture displaces and essentially destroys a pre-existing culture ---and later comes to regret it and feel guilty about it and wants to mend it---how does it do it ?---has THAT ever been done anywhere?
I dont know----
By making known the corruption, exposing the frauds on both sides and addressing the issue in a hardline manner, that would set the abusers and slothes back on their heels in an attack on the system, remenissent of the US's "shock and awe". Completely wiping out the current system of "zero" checks and balances and enforcing a rule of fiscal law that would ensure only those desperately needy got the bulk of the systems assistance. Forensic audits that made a visit to the proctologist seem like a birthday party, drug testing those that wished to collect a stipend, opening the books and financial records of elected officials before, during and after elections, tracking the contracts awarded-to ensure fair bidding practices and ensuring the right people are doing the jobs-not the Chiefs cousin-who sets up a business front Friday-to open business with the Band Monday-and has clue one what the job entails.

Some of these practices will be met with staunch dissaproval, by both the Feds and the Chiefs. There are many reasons why, most of them corrupt. period.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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152 million dollars to re-locate less than 600 native Innu from Davis Inlet.........do the math, that is $250,000+ for every man, womaqn, and child, and NONE of the problems solved. Lovely homes built, now wrecked, sniffing still a major problem, and a band leadership claiming they are unable to produce receipts for their spending because they were stolen

"nuff said..

The houses vacated in Davis Inlet were also built by the government about thirty or so years earlier. The new town can't work either. There is no local industry or anything to provide jobs for these people. The kids have nothing to look forward to. They can look at television and see what must be fairytale lives of other people somewhere else, and look at their parents playing bingo all day. Is it any wonder these kids sniff gas? Meanwhile, their leaders are advocating the "old ways". The old ways don't work any more. It is time these people joined the twenty first century.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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The houses vacated in Davis Inlet were also built by the government about thirty or so years earlier. The new town can't work either. There is no local industry or anything to provide jobs for these people. The kids have nothing to look forward to. They can look at television and see what must be fairytale lives of other people somewhere else, and look at their parents playing bingo all day. Is it any wonder these kids sniff gas? Meanwhile, their leaders are advocating the "old ways". The old ways don't work any more. It is time these people joined the twenty first century.
And what exactly do think that will accomplish, but further strain the liberally concocted social safety blanket?

Without a process for education and integration, sensely dumping Natives in industrialised areas is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment, only furthering their dependence on social programs.

The governments and Native leaders have fought this notion for years. Like I said above, it is always labelled racist.

btw, I was raised on the "Old ways", by traditionals, I managed to break free of the stereo types and assinine cycle of stupidity. Blaming that is like blaming a dog for waging his tail. So perhaps it is more the lack of quality role models the traditions and values of the "Old way", which I might add, teach alot about self reliance and accountablity. I would assert that it is the lack of learning of the "OLd awys" that furthers the cycle then perpetuates it.

Juan, what do you know of the "Old ways"?? Or are you basing your assertion on a vision of stereotypical loin clothes, war paint and Mohawk hair cuts?
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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California
Sounds like the First Nations People in Canada should visit the California tribal brothers and sisters...

They are doing very well for themselves - taking much of the gaming industry away from Nevada and keeping it in California and recently made a decision on their own - to pay State Tax - a considerable sum!

I am not suggesting Gaming is the only industry which a group can latch onto independence - but with the government's help they can call their shots and create whatever they wish to do.....

Take away a man's self-worth - you take his life - and his family's.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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No.

What is happening, is we are throwing taxpayer's hard earned money into a black hole, and that black hole will only grow. That little community is now 600 people. In a few years it will be 6000 and it won't be any better off. We will just be paying more money. We should shut the place down and help the people move to where they can have a life.

We have "old ways" as well, and our "old ways" tell us we have to earn our keep, and support our families. It is no longer possible to make a living by hunting and trapping and it hasn't been possible for at least forty years.