November 17th, 2006, 06:19 PM
I wonder how this will be viewed by the Hezollah and Hamas supporters?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...deseronto.html
I wonder how this will be viewed by the Hezollah and Hamas supporters?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...deseronto.html
November 18th, 2006, 05:01 AM
No, that would be wrong as well. My 'cause' is accountablity in our leaders, not scetchy land claims that lay dorment, until such time as they can be profittable.
I do feel a draw to such "Stand Offs" as a Native, but I do not beleive this course of action is productive. True, many treaties stand unrattified, but I see a greater injustice being perpetrated on our people by our own leaders. Via corruption, complacency and greed, as well as the continued perpetuation of stereotypes, that my very people help foster.
As much as land claims go un-answered, it would do our people a better service to grow out of the child like state we continuously wallow in. Yes, injustices have happend, yes they still effect me deeply, but that does not give us the rights to enfringe on the rights of peaceful Canadians, at will.
If we wish to hold anyone to a standard, my suggestion is, start with our house. Then move on to the land claims. I'm beginning to think these events are concocted to draw attention away from real issues and focus energies on endevours that only hide the crime in our midsts.
No, that would be wrong as well. My 'cause' is accountablity in our leaders, not scetchy land claims that lay dorment, until such time as they can be profittable.
I do feel a draw to such "Stand Offs" as a Native, but I do not beleive this course of action is productive. True, many treaties stand unrattified, but I see a greater injustice being perpetrated on our people by our own leaders. Via corruption, complacency and greed, as well as the continued perpetuation of stereotypes, that my very people help foster.
As much as land claims go un-answered, it would do our people a better service to grow out of the child like state we continuously wallow in. Yes, injustices have happend, yes they still effect me deeply, but that does not give us the rights to enfringe on the rights of peaceful Canadians, at will.
If we wish to hold anyone to a standard, my suggestion is, start with our house. Then move on to the land claims. I'm beginning to think these events are concocted to draw attention away from real issues and focus energies on endevours that only hide the crime in our midsts.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 622 
November 18th, 2006, 05:18 AM
yes cleaning our own backyard first, would sound logical ,but if there is profit in cleaning someone elses ,there lies motive
I dont agree, I say clean your own first, makes you better stronger and more able to prevail ,united
How would one know until it was to late ,that it was diversion ?
yes cleaning our own backyard first, would sound logical ,but if there is profit in cleaning someone elses ,there lies motive
I dont agree, I say clean your own first, makes you better stronger and more able to prevail ,united
How would one know until it was to late ,that it was diversion ?
November 18th, 2006, 09:36 AM
CDNBear, is there any pressure placed within the native communities to speed up processes within band councils? Anyone who has ever dealt with a band council on any legal document can attest to waiting 2, 3 or 6 months for a review of such that should take about 3 days. It's no wonder nothing ever gets signed off or agreed to because the snails pace is out of touch with the rest of the world. Is the developer of this lakefront property expected to wait 2, 3, or 5 years while completely ineffective and inefficient bureaucracies muddle through proposals? It's no wonder the property was never officially surrendered..the documentation is probably still in someone's to do basket from 100 years ago.
There needs to be some pressure on leadership from within to move a helluva lot faster on just about everything.
CDNBear, is there any pressure placed within the native communities to speed up processes within band councils? Anyone who has ever dealt with a band council on any legal document can attest to waiting 2, 3 or 6 months for a review of such that should take about 3 days. It's no wonder nothing ever gets signed off or agreed to because the snails pace is out of touch with the rest of the world. Is the developer of this lakefront property expected to wait 2, 3, or 5 years while completely ineffective and inefficient bureaucracies muddle through proposals? It's no wonder the property was never officially surrendered..the documentation is probably still in someone's to do basket from 100 years ago.
There needs to be some pressure on leadership from within to move a helluva lot faster on just about everything.
November 18th, 2006, 10:08 AM
But the foot dragging is not just Native, it's federal and provincial.
I won't try to pretend I know everything about the process, because I do not. But I have been and still am involved in other issues that the council I work closest with, have been able to put together, vote on and then take to the either the provincial leaders or the feds in weeks, only to have it stalled at every level until the plan is no longer fesable or the particapants have moved on. Some of our plans heve been to create cheap and sustainable mobile trade schools that can bring job skills to isolated areas, either provoke or force transparency and accountablity in our leaders with regards to financial innaccuracies and missappropriations. We have spent countless hours pouring over documents, pleading with the feds and to what end. We still have leaders that are allowed to be incontrol of money even though the feds have acknowledged that there are some "Irregularities". That took almost 5 years, cost us our own time and money, the Metis status of a good friend and my own status being suspended indefinetly. How anyone can revoke the Native status of someone is beyond me. But it is a common tactic by those that fear the light of day.
The corruption abounds and it does not just end at our reservation borders. Towns and municipalities, provincialy and Federally, there is no accountablity.
Why it should take more then a couple months to review a land claim is beyond me. My only notion is that the federal parties want to make sure that they will not leave themselves open for law suits. On the part of the many bands that slow the process, I can only sumize that they are looking to fatten their wallets or they are being led by lawyers that only wish to extend the length of time to pad theirs.
I wish it was all cut and dry, simple reading of treaties, reviews of property claims and borders, or what have you, but it is more in depth then that.
Quoting Kreskin
I couldn't agree with you more.
CDNBear, is there any pressure placed within the native communities to speed up processes within band councils? Anyone who has ever dealt with a band council on any legal document can attest to waiting 2, 3 or 6 months for a review of such that should take about 3 days. It's no wonder nothing ever gets signed off or agreed to because the snails pace is out of touch with the rest of the world. Is the developer of this lakefront property expected to wait 2, 3, or 5 years while completely ineffective and inefficient bureaucracies muddle through proposals? It's no wonder the property was never officially surrendered..the documentation is probably still in someone's to do basket from 100 years ago.
There needs to be some pressure on leadership from within to move a helluva lot faster on just about everything.
There needs to be some pressure on leadership from within to move a helluva lot faster on just about everything.
But the foot dragging is not just Native, it's federal and provincial.
I won't try to pretend I know everything about the process, because I do not. But I have been and still am involved in other issues that the council I work closest with, have been able to put together, vote on and then take to the either the provincial leaders or the feds in weeks, only to have it stalled at every level until the plan is no longer fesable or the particapants have moved on. Some of our plans heve been to create cheap and sustainable mobile trade schools that can bring job skills to isolated areas, either provoke or force transparency and accountablity in our leaders with regards to financial innaccuracies and missappropriations. We have spent countless hours pouring over documents, pleading with the feds and to what end. We still have leaders that are allowed to be incontrol of money even though the feds have acknowledged that there are some "Irregularities". That took almost 5 years, cost us our own time and money, the Metis status of a good friend and my own status being suspended indefinetly. How anyone can revoke the Native status of someone is beyond me. But it is a common tactic by those that fear the light of day.
The corruption abounds and it does not just end at our reservation borders. Towns and municipalities, provincialy and Federally, there is no accountablity.
Why it should take more then a couple months to review a land claim is beyond me. My only notion is that the federal parties want to make sure that they will not leave themselves open for law suits. On the part of the many bands that slow the process, I can only sumize that they are looking to fatten their wallets or they are being led by lawyers that only wish to extend the length of time to pad theirs.
I wish it was all cut and dry, simple reading of treaties, reviews of property claims and borders, or what have you, but it is more in depth then that.
Bright Spark
Posts: 377
November 18th, 2006, 11:07 AM
I wonder what would happen if a group of causasion people got together and did what he Mohawks are doing in Caledonia. Such as getting a backhoe and tearing up a provincial road so that no traffic could get through. I wonder how long it would take for the RCMP to come and charge and arrest everyone involved, never mind Hammas. Also I would like to know why there is not more nation coverage on the situation. I've seen some news reports on CTV but next to nothing about it on CBC, I wonder why that is, after all it is no small new event, not for Canada anyways.
I wonder what would happen if a group of causasion people got together and did what he Mohawks are doing in Caledonia. Such as getting a backhoe and tearing up a provincial road so that no traffic could get through. I wonder how long it would take for the RCMP to come and charge and arrest everyone involved, never mind Hammas. Also I would like to know why there is not more nation coverage on the situation. I've seen some news reports on CTV but next to nothing about it on CBC, I wonder why that is, after all it is no small new event, not for Canada anyways.
November 18th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Before anyone jumps up my a$$, remember, I am against actions such as these. But ask and ye shall recieve.
The comparison between tearing up a road, and bulldozing 14 homes and displacing an entire community to build an Army base under the War Measures Act, and that of digging up a public thoroughfare, just don't seem to be on par.
I wonder how happy you would be if it happend to you?
Quoting Albertabound
Would you like me to put some perspective on the minute actions of the MWS at Caledonia, as compared to the dessimation of Native lands Nationaly?
I wonder what would happen if a group of causasion people got together and did what he Mohawks are doing in Caledonia. Such as getting a backhoe and tearing up a provincial road so that no traffic could get through. I wonder how long it would take for the RCMP to come and charge and arrest everyone involved, never mind Hammas. Also I would like to know why there is not more nation coverage on the situation. I've seen some news reports on CTV but next to nothing about it on CBC, I wonder why that is, after all it is no small new event, not for Canada anyways.
Before anyone jumps up my a$$, remember, I am against actions such as these. But ask and ye shall recieve.
The comparison between tearing up a road, and bulldozing 14 homes and displacing an entire community to build an Army base under the War Measures Act, and that of digging up a public thoroughfare, just don't seem to be on par.
I wonder how happy you would be if it happend to you?
Senate Member
Posts: 5,155 
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
November 18th, 2006, 11:40 AM
I am absolutely divided over the native land claims issue. I had sympathy for native claims both at Oka and at Ipperwash...........and I understood the protests.
In Caledonia, I'm not impressed. My understanding is the land was SOLD in 1840. In which case the protesters should be dispersed, using as much (and as little) force as necessary.
I think the Ni'iska (sp) deal in BC was insane.
I think the Kelowna agreement was insane.
I think native peoples need seriously to clean their own house. I think the ideal of collectivity in dealing with native reservations and lands needs to be abandoned. I think we need to be a LOT tougher on native bands that are corrupt and we need to demand an accounting, and we need to end all negotiations until we create a new framework, a totally new philosophy about our native people that seeks to include them in our society, NOT to isolate them.
Quoting CDNBear
I am not sure this society can keep going forever as 4,781 nations under one roof............(number picked at random, you know what I mean)
Would you like me to put some perspective on the minute actions of the MWS at Caledonia, as compared to the dessimation of Native lands Nationaly?
Before anyone jumps up my a$$, remember, I am against actions such as these. But ask and ye shall recieve.
The comparison between tearing up a road, and bulldozing 14 homes and displacing an entire community to build an Army base under the War Measures Act, and that of digging up a public thoroughfare, just don't seem to be on par.
I wonder how happy you would be if it happend to you?
Before anyone jumps up my a$$, remember, I am against actions such as these. But ask and ye shall recieve.
The comparison between tearing up a road, and bulldozing 14 homes and displacing an entire community to build an Army base under the War Measures Act, and that of digging up a public thoroughfare, just don't seem to be on par.
I wonder how happy you would be if it happend to you?
I am absolutely divided over the native land claims issue. I had sympathy for native claims both at Oka and at Ipperwash...........and I understood the protests.
In Caledonia, I'm not impressed. My understanding is the land was SOLD in 1840. In which case the protesters should be dispersed, using as much (and as little) force as necessary.
I think the Ni'iska (sp) deal in BC was insane.
I think the Kelowna agreement was insane.
I think native peoples need seriously to clean their own house. I think the ideal of collectivity in dealing with native reservations and lands needs to be abandoned. I think we need to be a LOT tougher on native bands that are corrupt and we need to demand an accounting, and we need to end all negotiations until we create a new framework, a totally new philosophy about our native people that seeks to include them in our society, NOT to isolate them.
Bright Spark
Posts: 377
November 18th, 2006, 11:43 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the dispute taking place in Caledonia on empty land, it is just the fact that the land itself is on Mohawk land. I am unaware of any homes being on the site itself. I have only seen a few newcasts about the situation, like I say, not informed enough.
The fact still remains that it would be a different intervention had this been done by a group of caucasions
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the dispute taking place in Caledonia on empty land, it is just the fact that the land itself is on Mohawk land. I am unaware of any homes being on the site itself. I have only seen a few newcasts about the situation, like I say, not informed enough.
The fact still remains that it would be a different intervention had this been done by a group of caucasions
November 18th, 2006, 12:03 PM
Yes you are likely correct in that assumption. I also do not condone the actions of the MWS, but this is not Mohawk land either. The MWS rarely bring substance or positivity to a situation. It seems their sole purpose is to be confrontational and belligerant.
But the clan mothers, whom orginally started the protest peacefully, were ignored. So I pose this question. If it is Ok for the Hezbollah to lob rockets into Israel because they are not being heard and respect, why is it not Ok for the MWS to take agressive actions to start some sort of process to correct percieved injustices?
You may or may not agree with the Hezbollah, but that was the premiss of the OP.
Quoting Albertabound
My anology was in reference to http://www.jmss.org/1999/article4.html .
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the dispute taking place in Caledonia on empty land, it is just the fact that the land itself is on Mohawk land. I am unaware of any homes being on the site itself. I have only seen a few newcasts about the situation, like I say, not informed enough.
The fact still remains that it would be a different intervention had this been done by a group of caucasions
The fact still remains that it would be a different intervention had this been done by a group of caucasions
Yes you are likely correct in that assumption. I also do not condone the actions of the MWS, but this is not Mohawk land either. The MWS rarely bring substance or positivity to a situation. It seems their sole purpose is to be confrontational and belligerant.
But the clan mothers, whom orginally started the protest peacefully, were ignored. So I pose this question. If it is Ok for the Hezbollah to lob rockets into Israel because they are not being heard and respect, why is it not Ok for the MWS to take agressive actions to start some sort of process to correct percieved injustices?
You may or may not agree with the Hezbollah, but that was the premiss of the OP.
Bright Spark
Posts: 377
November 18th, 2006, 12:26 PM
Probably the same reason we here in Canada do not have car bombings based on religious believes, we like to think of ourselves as being a little more reserved than that. Also I do not think that anybody but the hezbellola think that it is OK to lob rockets into Isreal, in the same respect then I guess it would be ok for the army to come in and illiminate the ones at the head of the aggressive actions such as the Israeli army has done.
Probably the same reason we here in Canada do not have car bombings based on religious believes, we like to think of ourselves as being a little more reserved than that. Also I do not think that anybody but the hezbellola think that it is OK to lob rockets into Isreal, in the same respect then I guess it would be ok for the army to come in and illiminate the ones at the head of the aggressive actions such as the Israeli army has done.
Never stop questioning
Posts: 100
Location: Alberta
Location: Alberta
November 18th, 2006, 12:35 PM
To quote CDNBear:
As much as land claims go un-answered, it would do our people a better service to grow out of the child like state we continuously wallow in. Yes, injustices have happend, yes they still effect me deeply, but that does not give us the rights to enfringe on the rights of peaceful Canadians, at will.
If we wish to hold anyone to a standard, my suggestion is, start with our house. Then move on to the land claims. I'm beginning to think these events are concocted to draw attention away from real issues and focus energies on endevours that only hide the crime in our midsts
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
I don't always share your opinions from your other posts, but the comments above are particularly consise and thoughtful. I would agree that the potential for the Native community to be successful in the new world and to hang onto tradition and culture is possible, but in order to do so, resentment and self-pity traded in for pride and hope for the future.
I'd like to see a few more balanced and consistant advocates for Native rights, while respecting the structure we have as Canadians and citizens in the land that we share.
I like the example of mobile training units for trades, what other examples do you have of positive initiatives, as opposed to the negative bombardment we get from the mass media?
AND, to play the devil's advocate, what is to be done about the high dependancy levels and unemployment in your community? (Certainly not to imply that these aren't problems for all ethnic groups)
Cheers! Good posts.
To quote CDNBear:
As much as land claims go un-answered, it would do our people a better service to grow out of the child like state we continuously wallow in. Yes, injustices have happend, yes they still effect me deeply, but that does not give us the rights to enfringe on the rights of peaceful Canadians, at will.
If we wish to hold anyone to a standard, my suggestion is, start with our house. Then move on to the land claims. I'm beginning to think these events are concocted to draw attention away from real issues and focus energies on endevours that only hide the crime in our midsts
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
I don't always share your opinions from your other posts, but the comments above are particularly consise and thoughtful. I would agree that the potential for the Native community to be successful in the new world and to hang onto tradition and culture is possible, but in order to do so, resentment and self-pity traded in for pride and hope for the future.
I'd like to see a few more balanced and consistant advocates for Native rights, while respecting the structure we have as Canadians and citizens in the land that we share.
I like the example of mobile training units for trades, what other examples do you have of positive initiatives, as opposed to the negative bombardment we get from the mass media?
AND, to play the devil's advocate, what is to be done about the high dependancy levels and unemployment in your community? (Certainly not to imply that these aren't problems for all ethnic groups)
Cheers! Good posts.
November 18th, 2006, 02:25 PM
That was well put and I can not dissagree in any way.
I wish it was as easy to do as it is to type though. I breaks my heart to watch my fellow Natives drop trou and act like children, almost as much as it does when I know corruption is there, but I am powerless to end it.
Quoting Colpy
WOW!
I am not sure this society can keep going forever as 4,781 nations under one roof............(number picked at random, you know what I mean)
I am absolutely divided over the native land claims issue. I had sympathy for native claims both at Oka and at Ipperwash...........and I understood the protests.
In Caledonia, I'm not impressed. My understanding is the land was SOLD in 1840. In which case the protesters should be dispersed, using as much (and as little) force as necessary.
I think the Ni'iska (sp) deal in BC was insane.
I think the Kelowna agreement was insane.
I think native peoples need seriously to clean their own house. I think the ideal of collectivity in dealing with native reservations and lands needs to be abandoned. I think we need to be a LOT tougher on native bands that are corrupt and we need to demand an accounting, and we need to end all negotiations until we create a new framework, a totally new philosophy about our native people that seeks to include them in our society, NOT to isolate them.
I am absolutely divided over the native land claims issue. I had sympathy for native claims both at Oka and at Ipperwash...........and I understood the protests.
In Caledonia, I'm not impressed. My understanding is the land was SOLD in 1840. In which case the protesters should be dispersed, using as much (and as little) force as necessary.
I think the Ni'iska (sp) deal in BC was insane.
I think the Kelowna agreement was insane.
I think native peoples need seriously to clean their own house. I think the ideal of collectivity in dealing with native reservations and lands needs to be abandoned. I think we need to be a LOT tougher on native bands that are corrupt and we need to demand an accounting, and we need to end all negotiations until we create a new framework, a totally new philosophy about our native people that seeks to include them in our society, NOT to isolate them.
That was well put and I can not dissagree in any way.
I wish it was as easy to do as it is to type though. I breaks my heart to watch my fellow Natives drop trou and act like children, almost as much as it does when I know corruption is there, but I am powerless to end it.
Bright Spark
Posts: 330 
November 18th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Why can't these people understand that there were treaties signed by both themselves and the government way back. These treaties should be respected and the natives should realize that. They want their cake and to eat it too. Enough is enough.
Quoting Albertabound
There were homes under construction in the disputed area.
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the dispute taking place in Caledonia on empty land, it is just the fact that the land itself is on Mohawk land. I am unaware of any homes being on the site itself. I have only seen a few newcasts about the situation, like I say, not informed enough.
The fact still remains that it would be a different intervention had this been done by a group of caucasions
The fact still remains that it would be a different intervention had this been done by a group of caucasions
Why can't these people understand that there were treaties signed by both themselves and the government way back. These treaties should be respected and the natives should realize that. They want their cake and to eat it too. Enough is enough.
November 18th, 2006, 02:36 PM
We have tried to start up affordable housing in city centers so that there is accommodations for those that live in remote areas, for Native peoples for the express purposes of furthering education, job prospects and skills development.
For some areas that is easier said then done. In some part largely due to access restrictions for some reservation, because of location. In other cases, even some of our initiatives have been met with cycicism and hostilaty, because we are outsiders. There are also other organizations that are presently at work trying to accomplish the same things. We are all for working with these groups as a team effort, but some groups see a limit to the pie, and see us as infringing on their share of moneies alotted from Ottawa. You see, to some people, this is a business, not a goal. If they were to actually fix the problems, they would put themselves out of work. I know that sounds like I need a tinfoil hat, but it sure seems that way, with the resistance they put up.
Quoting gearheaded1
Thanx, I think, in part, lol.
To quote CDNBear:
As much as land claims go un-answered, it would do our people a better service to grow out of the child like state we continuously wallow in. Yes, injustices have happend, yes they still effect me deeply, but that does not give us the rights to enfringe on the rights of peaceful Canadians, at will.
If we wish to hold anyone to a standard, my suggestion is, start with our house. Then move on to the land claims. I'm beginning to think these events are concocted to draw attention away from real issues and focus energies on endevours that only hide the crime in our midsts
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
I don't always share your opinions from your other posts, but the comments above are particularly consise and thoughtful. I would agree that the potential for the Native community to be successful in the new world and to hang onto tradition and culture is possible, but in order to do so, resentment and self-pity traded in for pride and hope for the future.
I'd like to see a few more balanced and consistant advocates for Native rights, while respecting the structure we have as Canadians and citizens in the land that we share.
I like the example of mobile training units for trades, what other examples do you have of positive initiatives, as opposed to the negative bombardment we get from the mass media?
AND, to play the devil's advocate, what is to be done about the high dependancy levels and unemployment in your community? (Certainly not to imply that these aren't problems for all ethnic groups)
Cheers! Good posts.
As much as land claims go un-answered, it would do our people a better service to grow out of the child like state we continuously wallow in. Yes, injustices have happend, yes they still effect me deeply, but that does not give us the rights to enfringe on the rights of peaceful Canadians, at will.
If we wish to hold anyone to a standard, my suggestion is, start with our house. Then move on to the land claims. I'm beginning to think these events are concocted to draw attention away from real issues and focus energies on endevours that only hide the crime in our midsts
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
I don't always share your opinions from your other posts, but the comments above are particularly consise and thoughtful. I would agree that the potential for the Native community to be successful in the new world and to hang onto tradition and culture is possible, but in order to do so, resentment and self-pity traded in for pride and hope for the future.
I'd like to see a few more balanced and consistant advocates for Native rights, while respecting the structure we have as Canadians and citizens in the land that we share.
I like the example of mobile training units for trades, what other examples do you have of positive initiatives, as opposed to the negative bombardment we get from the mass media?
AND, to play the devil's advocate, what is to be done about the high dependancy levels and unemployment in your community? (Certainly not to imply that these aren't problems for all ethnic groups)
Cheers! Good posts.
We have tried to start up affordable housing in city centers so that there is accommodations for those that live in remote areas, for Native peoples for the express purposes of furthering education, job prospects and skills development.
For some areas that is easier said then done. In some part largely due to access restrictions for some reservation, because of location. In other cases, even some of our initiatives have been met with cycicism and hostilaty, because we are outsiders. There are also other organizations that are presently at work trying to accomplish the same things. We are all for working with these groups as a team effort, but some groups see a limit to the pie, and see us as infringing on their share of moneies alotted from Ottawa. You see, to some people, this is a business, not a goal. If they were to actually fix the problems, they would put themselves out of work. I know that sounds like I need a tinfoil hat, but it sure seems that way, with the resistance they put up.
