We Are At War - Hillier 11-11-06
- Thread starter Curiosity
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Hillier is a windbag. RD ceremonies during the late 40's and throughout the 50's and early 60's were far more heartfelt than today's. They commemorated important wars and important and critical sacrifice. And the veterans were everywhere.
Afghanistan is a mess. Most Canadians can't stand the b*stards. And we're sacrificing young lives for a cause most don't believe in. If Hillier doesn't know that I'll take his place.
Afghanistan is a mess. Most Canadians can't stand the b*stards. And we're sacrificing young lives for a cause most don't believe in. If Hillier doesn't know that I'll take his place.
50% of Canadians still support the current Military role in Afghanistan.
I agree it is messy, but hardly a lost cause.
Most Canadians didn't believe (and still don't) in the First World War
Most Canadians didn't believe in WWII until the london was Terror bombed, Hitler was quite favourabley looked upon at the time.
Most Canadians didn't believe and still don't remember Korea.
And unless you are in the service YOU aren't sacrificing anything. YOU aren't sacrificing young lives. You're not risking your life, you're just sitting there while others do commenting upon it.
And there is nothing wrong with that, the ability to sit there and do that is one of the reasons people fight and die for the country, but the least you can do , is put your mall shopping off for a few hours one day a year and stand around what is in esscence a tombstone to those who died.
You can't spare 1 damn hour a year to respect a few million dead people? I find that hard to believe considering a majority of North American's spend a majority of their income on Christmas..including days of prep time..and thats (for most people) just an excuse to get gifts and get drunk at your works expense at the christmas party.
Well said!
My personal take on these polls, is that most Canadian have not the stomach for body bags. I never will get used to seeing them, nor rejoice in seeing them, but let them not sway our course of action. It would negate the memory of why they were filled in the first place. Until there is no war, men and women will likely fall fighting for what they believe is the truth.
My personal take on these polls, is that most Canadian have not the stomach for body bags. I never will get used to seeing them, nor rejoice in seeing them, but let them not sway our course of action. It would negate the memory of why they were filled in the first place. Until there is no war, men and women will likely fall fighting for what they believe is the truth.
You're right on some things here. But Canada during WWI was still an overwhelmingly British outpost in the world and ties to Britain were strong. My grandfather fought in that war and his Canadian outfit was almost entirely of British ancestry. As were the majority of those Canadians killed in WWI. He used to talk of it as the best part of his life. The sense of mission and camaraderie was deeply felt.
Now don't think because Pierre Trudeau was a fascist dick at the beginning of WWII that all Canadians were sympathizers. My dad fought in that one and he was a member of that interwar period that would see the sons of veterans become veterans themselves. Canadians were still war-weary and depression-weary but they weren't Nazi sympathizers outside of those intellectual enclaves operating in key Quebec cities and larger centres like Toronto.
Hey, I celebrate RD. But don't ever tell me RD today is more heartfelt than it was years ago. That's absolute bull****. Hillier should give his head a shake.
Now don't think because Pierre Trudeau was a fascist dick at the beginning of WWII that all Canadians were sympathizers. My dad fought in that one and he was a member of that interwar period that would see the sons of veterans become veterans themselves. Canadians were still war-weary and depression-weary but they weren't Nazi sympathizers outside of those intellectual enclaves operating in key Quebec cities and larger centres like Toronto.
Hey, I celebrate RD. But don't ever tell me RD today is more heartfelt than it was years ago. That's absolute bull****. Hillier should give his head a shake.
You are correct.
But I think Hillier was alluding to the loss of Canadian Soldiers in the "new" war and how that made this RD more poinient to this generation. All whilst chatising those that fail to give a snigle moment for the memory of those that had fallen in yester years, or in the past couple.
But I think Hillier was alluding to the loss of Canadian Soldiers in the "new" war and how that made this RD more poinient to this generation. All whilst chatising those that fail to give a snigle moment for the memory of those that had fallen in yester years, or in the past couple.
Everyone should take the time to remember that Canadians fought to secure the freedoms we all enjoy today. A freedom paid for by the blood of young men and women who believed that the right of one nation to prosecute war on any other nation is justified in the name of defense, and not in the name of securing pipeline-routes or legitimizing multi-billion dollar budgets to pad the coffers of those running the Military Industrial Complex that is the United States of America. There is a time for war, a dark dreadful time when the only response to the violence of a nation roused to action by a madman or a tyrant demands that those willing and prepared to stand against those who'd take freedom away from everyone at the point of a gun be resisted to the point of self-sacrifice if necessary.
Canadians in Afghanistan are continuing the war that the United States began with Russia by arming the Afghani warlords to prevent the Russians from capitalizing on a potentially lucrative world market for its oil. That the Taliban gave Al Qeada areas for training terrorists is something that needs to be dealt with. Does it need to be dealt-with by war? NO
If those who're making money buying opium from Afghanistan were brought to justice, if the Taliban were brought to justice, if insurgents flocking to Afghanistan and Iraq believed anything other than the fact that the west (Canada and America) were more about freedom and justice than about oil and world dominance, then maybe there'd be a new dynamic at play....
But there isn't.
The United States protects and empowers Israel, the United States conducted an invasion and practices war on the basis of its own interests (let's not be naive enough to believe that Mr. or Mrs. Average American really cares whether an Iraqi woman or child has "rights".....) the United States has manipulated and influenced nations economically and militarily for decades. The United States is the enemy of the Arab nations and the only reason the United States and Canada are involved has to do with keeping the price of cruising the highways and by-ways of North America cheap.
Alruistic nonesense like "freedom" and "democracy" for Iraqis or Afghanis are the blinders pulled down over the eyes of a willing population to permit them to ignore their own complicity in exercising war in the name of dollars.
All the rest is smelly stuff that's usually associated with male bovines.
Canadians in Afghanistan are continuing the war that the United States began with Russia by arming the Afghani warlords to prevent the Russians from capitalizing on a potentially lucrative world market for its oil. That the Taliban gave Al Qeada areas for training terrorists is something that needs to be dealt with. Does it need to be dealt-with by war? NO
If those who're making money buying opium from Afghanistan were brought to justice, if the Taliban were brought to justice, if insurgents flocking to Afghanistan and Iraq believed anything other than the fact that the west (Canada and America) were more about freedom and justice than about oil and world dominance, then maybe there'd be a new dynamic at play....
But there isn't.
The United States protects and empowers Israel, the United States conducted an invasion and practices war on the basis of its own interests (let's not be naive enough to believe that Mr. or Mrs. Average American really cares whether an Iraqi woman or child has "rights".....) the United States has manipulated and influenced nations economically and militarily for decades. The United States is the enemy of the Arab nations and the only reason the United States and Canada are involved has to do with keeping the price of cruising the highways and by-ways of North America cheap.
Alruistic nonesense like "freedom" and "democracy" for Iraqis or Afghanis are the blinders pulled down over the eyes of a willing population to permit them to ignore their own complicity in exercising war in the name of dollars.
All the rest is smelly stuff that's usually associated with male bovines.
Oh, thanks! I just asked for a poll. Should've read on before hitting submit
Frankly, as you will suspect, I hardly think what we are doing in Afghanistan has anything to do with the security of this country. Afghanistan isn't on the brink of invading us, last time I checked.
QUITE! Well said! I very much agree. there is nothing noble about the war in either countries...
Couple things:
Tamarin:
1.) Pierre Trudeau lead the cultural revolution that lead to Canada being a multicultural society in the 60's, he was not around in WWII politics.
you are thinking of Mackenzie-King, who was a faschist..best buds with Hilter, hated jews and talked to his dog and his dead mother about policy (through seances).
2.) You are looking at history through rose coloured glasses if you think we have been in any war for any reason other than self interest.
WW1.) Was fought over Iraqi oil, and who would control it, Britain or the Kaiser, and thus which alliance (neither of which were any worse than the other alliance, morally) would reign on top of the world. Text book imperial bull****.
WW2.) Was fought over which faschist regimes would rule eastern europe, and who their puppet masters would be.
Lets not forget that WWII poland was a faschist regime who was ALSO invading its neighbours. Britain nor France cared until the Balance of power would be upset and it would weaken their own influence in the region. The War BECAME something else, but it started, yet again, as standard imperial bull****.
Korea was the only really noble war, but nobody had the stomach to finish it because the media jumped on the bandwagon of it being unimportant, not our business, and oh yes..Capitalist Imperialism.
Moral wars rarely get waged and never finished.
But without these imperialist wars to keep us fed, we would become another third world country..because they are willing to kill us so that their children live as spoiled suburbanites and ours live as child soldiers or working to make sneakers for 4c a day. There are more people than resources, and other people aren't going to curl up and starve to death anymore than you are. Its a sad truth, but until everyone (and not just the west and china) realises 1 family can't have 15 children per generation indefinately (ie, their is a limit to how many people the earth can hold) there will always be wars over resources.
Tamarin:
1.) Pierre Trudeau lead the cultural revolution that lead to Canada being a multicultural society in the 60's, he was not around in WWII politics.
you are thinking of Mackenzie-King, who was a faschist..best buds with Hilter, hated jews and talked to his dog and his dead mother about policy (through seances).
2.) You are looking at history through rose coloured glasses if you think we have been in any war for any reason other than self interest.
WW1.) Was fought over Iraqi oil, and who would control it, Britain or the Kaiser, and thus which alliance (neither of which were any worse than the other alliance, morally) would reign on top of the world. Text book imperial bull****.
WW2.) Was fought over which faschist regimes would rule eastern europe, and who their puppet masters would be.
Lets not forget that WWII poland was a faschist regime who was ALSO invading its neighbours. Britain nor France cared until the Balance of power would be upset and it would weaken their own influence in the region. The War BECAME something else, but it started, yet again, as standard imperial bull****.
Korea was the only really noble war, but nobody had the stomach to finish it because the media jumped on the bandwagon of it being unimportant, not our business, and oh yes..Capitalist Imperialism.
Moral wars rarely get waged and never finished.
But without these imperialist wars to keep us fed, we would become another third world country..because they are willing to kill us so that their children live as spoiled suburbanites and ours live as child soldiers or working to make sneakers for 4c a day. There are more people than resources, and other people aren't going to curl up and starve to death anymore than you are. Its a sad truth, but until everyone (and not just the west and china) realises 1 family can't have 15 children per generation indefinately (ie, their is a limit to how many people the earth can hold) there will always be wars over resources.
True enough, but they supplied support and shelter for those that would.
Do I beleive the US allowed 9/11 to take place to give them the reason they needed to invade Afghanistan? Yes. Do I believe the under lying cause for this action is the control of the worlds oil suplies by American interests? Yes. Do I beleive our Military is party to it on the ground in Afghanistan? No. I beleive our Troops are doing what they were trained to do, Soldier as needed, lend aid as needed and leave the country in better shape then we found it. Do I think this can be achieved? Time will tell.
Am I guilty of all the hyperbole in mickey's post? Absolutely not. Is half of North America guilty of the assertions in mickey's post? Absolutely not.
Do I believe the governing bodies are? Yes.
Zzarchov, Pierre Trudeau should have enlisted in WWII but, like many of his buddies, didn't. Conscription coming in 1944 didn't make the war more popular. Service by Canadians was profoundly voluntary. It is to this that we owe such a debt of gratitude today.
Pierre Trudeau was a political activist during WWII, his sympathies overtly fascist. As is quoted in the recent book on the young Trudeau, he insisted anyone in Quebec who signed up to oppose Hitler should be 'impaled." He meant it. He also later said a man is foolish until he's thirty. I hope he meant that too.
Pierre Trudeau was a political activist during WWII, his sympathies overtly fascist. As is quoted in the recent book on the young Trudeau, he insisted anyone in Quebec who signed up to oppose Hitler should be 'impaled." He meant it. He also later said a man is foolish until he's thirty. I hope he meant that too.
I'd agree with him too Tamarin.
WWII at that point wasn't about stopping the Death Camps nor abolishing Fascism.
It was about preserving British Interests and influence in Europe. It was about keeping some genocidal fascists in power, while deposing opposing fascists.
Trudeau was right to oppose Quebec joining in, at that point the french really were second class citizens.
You can't look at post-war revisionism as the nobility and reason of the war.
Its a little like Saying America said it was going into Iraq to punish Saddam Hussein for Genocide.
The history books will say that, and Saddam was truly punished for genocide.. but that's not why the US said it was getting involved. And people who opposed the US going into Iraq were not supporting Genocide.
Soldiers however, should always be honoured (in a democracy) for supporting their people by putting their lives on the line.
WWII at that point wasn't about stopping the Death Camps nor abolishing Fascism.
It was about preserving British Interests and influence in Europe. It was about keeping some genocidal fascists in power, while deposing opposing fascists.
Trudeau was right to oppose Quebec joining in, at that point the french really were second class citizens.
You can't look at post-war revisionism as the nobility and reason of the war.
Its a little like Saying America said it was going into Iraq to punish Saddam Hussein for Genocide.
The history books will say that, and Saddam was truly punished for genocide.. but that's not why the US said it was getting involved. And people who opposed the US going into Iraq were not supporting Genocide.
Soldiers however, should always be honoured (in a democracy) for supporting their people by putting their lives on the line.
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That statement is nonsense since anyone who had an opinion about the first world war is dead. The only three vets left from that war are a hundred and five years old.
Canada was a country of less than 10 million people but we were able to put a million men(and women) in uniform for that war. That would have been hard to do if most Canadians didn't believe in the war.
Where do you find this stuff? Korea was fifty odd years ago, so if you were not born at the time, you
obviously wouldn't remember it. Canadian soldiers did themselves proud in that war...I mean... "police action" .
My family for five generations has served in various arms of the Canadian military. My father was in Korea , the Belgian Congo, all over the world in fact... and many of my family have been decorated for their service to the principles of freedom and democracy that underpin our society. (Not saying that justice and freedom are ubiquitious in Canada...)
I personally hate all war but am also prepared to acknowledge that when there is no other way to stop people from subjugating others, that war is regrettably the last option.
I personally hate all war but am also prepared to acknowledge that when there is no other way to stop people from subjugating others, that war is regrettably the last option.