| View Poll Results: What do you think about ballet initiatives? | |||
| Yes. More democracy |    | 7 | 70.00% |
| No.Waste of paper |    | 2 | 20.00% |
| I don't care |    | 0 | 0% |
| I live in a cave |    | 1 | 10.00% |
| Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll | |||
November 6th, 2006, 05:19 PM
I've always wondered why we don't have ballet initiatives here like the Americans have. In fact, the only time in my life I've seen anything close was the referendum in Quebec. Wouldn't ballet initiatives be a step towards better representation of what we the public want?
Any other ideas?
I've always wondered why we don't have ballet initiatives here like the Americans have. In fact, the only time in my life I've seen anything close was the referendum in Quebec. Wouldn't ballet initiatives be a step towards better representation of what we the public want?
Any other ideas?
the clan of the claw
Posts: 1,976 
November 6th, 2006, 05:36 PM
good question.
the difficulty or danger with "popular vote" initiatives is it is leaving the decision to the masses, and the masses know not what they do. A clever propaganda campaign can lead the mob to any destination, like the pied piper led the rats to their doom. I would not be so eager to trust the course chosen by the majority mob, for the fact that the mob chose it is enough proof that there is something wrong with it.
good question.
the difficulty or danger with "popular vote" initiatives is it is leaving the decision to the masses, and the masses know not what they do. A clever propaganda campaign can lead the mob to any destination, like the pied piper led the rats to their doom. I would not be so eager to trust the course chosen by the majority mob, for the fact that the mob chose it is enough proof that there is something wrong with it.
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 10,505 
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
November 6th, 2006, 06:34 PM
I partially agree with caracal kid on this one. The masses know not what they do, or if you prefer, beware of the majority mob rule also known as democracy. On more than one occassions, the people aren't well informed on the simplest matters, I shudder to think on anything significant.
However, on certain issues, I think it is necessary and helpful.
I partially agree with caracal kid on this one. The masses know not what they do, or if you prefer, beware of the majority mob rule also known as democracy. On more than one occassions, the people aren't well informed on the simplest matters, I shudder to think on anything significant.
However, on certain issues, I think it is necessary and helpful.
November 6th, 2006, 07:17 PM
Yah, I guess that's really closer to what I was getting at. Not so much a ballot initiative like in respect to a bill, but more of an indication of what the publics feeling is on an issue. Like a simple question without all the language of a bill, and then perhaps that could influence the workings of things like the Clean Air Act being altered by House Committees.
Yah, I guess that's really closer to what I was getting at. Not so much a ballot initiative like in respect to a bill, but more of an indication of what the publics feeling is on an issue. Like a simple question without all the language of a bill, and then perhaps that could influence the workings of things like the Clean Air Act being altered by House Committees.
Electoral Member
Posts: 285
Location: Ontario, Sadly
Location: Ontario, Sadly
November 13th, 2006, 11:21 AM
Quoting the caracal kid
So the great unwashed masses are too stupid to think for themselves. Why do we trust them with voting at all?
good question.
the difficulty or danger with "popular vote" initiatives is it is leaving the decision to the masses, and the masses know not what they do. A clever propaganda campaign can lead the mob to any destination, like the pied piper led the rats to their doom. I would not be so eager to trust the course chosen by the majority mob, for the fact that the mob chose it is enough proof that there is something wrong with it.
the difficulty or danger with "popular vote" initiatives is it is leaving the decision to the masses, and the masses know not what they do. A clever propaganda campaign can lead the mob to any destination, like the pied piper led the rats to their doom. I would not be so eager to trust the course chosen by the majority mob, for the fact that the mob chose it is enough proof that there is something wrong with it.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
November 13th, 2006, 01:30 PM
Voting is a ritual used to maintain the myth that the great unwashed are actually involved in the governing process. Despite the fact that it appears that business people, lawyers and entertainment idols are the preferred choices among the great unwashed, MBAs “market analysts” and bean counters embedded as the bureaucracies of modern government do the actual “governing”.
It’s absolutely essential in a system that’s designed by the wealthy for the wealthy that their interests are the primary concern of government. It’s entirely logical that the wealthy ensure that their respective representatives control access to the legislative process and ipso facto, any potential alteration to that legislation.
It is the wealthy who build factories and suburbia, and it is the wealthy who may or may not grant the privilege of making a living to each one of us, the great unwashed and it is the wealthy who conduct shape and control national and international commerce.
Your life and your livelihood are given you by the wealthy.
You enjoy the “rights” of a majority that is completely and totally at the mercy of the wealthy. It is the wealthy who shape budgets and craft laws that facilitates their continued control over the lives of we the great unwashed.
There are speech writers and poll takers, lobbyist groups and think tanks, there are social movements and there are special interest groups and an enormously complex and virtually ubiquitous propaganda machine as close to each one of us as our computers our televisions and our cell phones.
The greatest electoral craft is in moulding sentiment among the great unwashed that convinces them that they’re in charge of their lives and they get that reassurance every time they purchase “this” instead of “that”
“See I’m in control of my life”, seldom realizing this choice is in itself a myth.
It is the primal myth of that propaganda machinery.
This is the “freedom” that’s worth spilling the blood of innocents and sending young people off to die.
The great hoax of western democracies is the passion that’s been engendered around the whole voting ritual. Banana republics and even the great western democracies have always had significant difficulties manipulating the election process to achieve the desired outcome. Voting booths and levers, “chads” and scribbled “X’s” on bits of paper can be used to alter that outcome and we’ve become justifiably skeptical over the years of any of these processes because we’ve very often found out later that …whoops! There seems to have been some irregularity in the count, or gosh ole dead Uncle Remus voted twice this year and he’s been dead for three…..
There’s every reason to believe that any referenda held will be just as vulnerable to corruption as every other voting ritual.
What’s worth considering from the get-go however, is who do you think manages this system and why would there be any cause for doubt in anyone’s mind regarding the integrity of these good folk?
Voting is a ritual used to maintain the myth that the great unwashed are actually involved in the governing process. Despite the fact that it appears that business people, lawyers and entertainment idols are the preferred choices among the great unwashed, MBAs “market analysts” and bean counters embedded as the bureaucracies of modern government do the actual “governing”.
It’s absolutely essential in a system that’s designed by the wealthy for the wealthy that their interests are the primary concern of government. It’s entirely logical that the wealthy ensure that their respective representatives control access to the legislative process and ipso facto, any potential alteration to that legislation.
It is the wealthy who build factories and suburbia, and it is the wealthy who may or may not grant the privilege of making a living to each one of us, the great unwashed and it is the wealthy who conduct shape and control national and international commerce.
Your life and your livelihood are given you by the wealthy.
You enjoy the “rights” of a majority that is completely and totally at the mercy of the wealthy. It is the wealthy who shape budgets and craft laws that facilitates their continued control over the lives of we the great unwashed.
There are speech writers and poll takers, lobbyist groups and think tanks, there are social movements and there are special interest groups and an enormously complex and virtually ubiquitous propaganda machine as close to each one of us as our computers our televisions and our cell phones.
The greatest electoral craft is in moulding sentiment among the great unwashed that convinces them that they’re in charge of their lives and they get that reassurance every time they purchase “this” instead of “that”
“See I’m in control of my life”, seldom realizing this choice is in itself a myth.
It is the primal myth of that propaganda machinery.
This is the “freedom” that’s worth spilling the blood of innocents and sending young people off to die.
The great hoax of western democracies is the passion that’s been engendered around the whole voting ritual. Banana republics and even the great western democracies have always had significant difficulties manipulating the election process to achieve the desired outcome. Voting booths and levers, “chads” and scribbled “X’s” on bits of paper can be used to alter that outcome and we’ve become justifiably skeptical over the years of any of these processes because we’ve very often found out later that …whoops! There seems to have been some irregularity in the count, or gosh ole dead Uncle Remus voted twice this year and he’s been dead for three…..
There’s every reason to believe that any referenda held will be just as vulnerable to corruption as every other voting ritual.
What’s worth considering from the get-go however, is who do you think manages this system and why would there be any cause for doubt in anyone’s mind regarding the integrity of these good folk?
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
November 19th, 2006, 02:19 PM
I've always wanted electoral reform. I think the FPTP system for parliment is a little too unfare and it should be a mixed FPTP and PR system like the MMP system. Where at least 1/3 of the seats are by pop vote.
As well as an unelected Senate is counter productive, an un-elected Governor General, I think there should be some changes.
I've always wanted electoral reform. I think the FPTP system for parliment is a little too unfare and it should be a mixed FPTP and PR system like the MMP system. Where at least 1/3 of the seats are by pop vote.
As well as an unelected Senate is counter productive, an un-elected Governor General, I think there should be some changes.
Genius
Posts: 931
November 19th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Quoting Kreskin
I agree.
I wouldn't want anything possibly associated with rights to be put on a ballot, i.e. same sex marriage. Rights don't only belong to the ruling mob. Other than rights issues I'm sure there a some that could be addressed this way, i.e. should we build a missile defense.
November 19th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Anyone here watch Bill Mahers new program? The other night he had Richard Dreyfus on his panel. He has been studying Civics and now works at Oxford University as a senior Associate member. He raised some very valid points about the direction democracies are taking. Civics and the duties therein are something that is severly lacking in todays discourse. He raised many points which I agree with and allready subscribe to. For instance he talked about questioning the politicians. More specifically in regard to the erosion of personal rights and freedoms and also the role of media informing on policy. The subject of Civics may seem dull and boring, but it is a lesson which has been declining and I agree with him 100% when he says we need to take a more active approach. Heres something to think about. The American Bill of Rights was intended by the founding fathers of that nation to be a working guideline, something to be evaluated every 20 years. That has not been the case.
Anyone here watch Bill Mahers new program? The other night he had Richard Dreyfus on his panel. He has been studying Civics and now works at Oxford University as a senior Associate member. He raised some very valid points about the direction democracies are taking. Civics and the duties therein are something that is severly lacking in todays discourse. He raised many points which I agree with and allready subscribe to. For instance he talked about questioning the politicians. More specifically in regard to the erosion of personal rights and freedoms and also the role of media informing on policy. The subject of Civics may seem dull and boring, but it is a lesson which has been declining and I agree with him 100% when he says we need to take a more active approach. Heres something to think about. The American Bill of Rights was intended by the founding fathers of that nation to be a working guideline, something to be evaluated every 20 years. That has not been the case.
House Member
Posts: 3,378
November 19th, 2006, 03:46 PM
The problem with "Ballot Initiatives" , and why they are banned in countries where they were previously used in major decisions, is that it literally boils down to mob rule. This is why its banned in Germany after Hitler used them to great effect.
I don't have a better solution mind you.
The problem with "Ballot Initiatives" , and why they are banned in countries where they were previously used in major decisions, is that it literally boils down to mob rule. This is why its banned in Germany after Hitler used them to great effect.
I don't have a better solution mind you.
November 19th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Technically any voting is mob rule. Whichever mob is biggest gets the go ahead. Ballot initiatives would entail something like a simple yes or no. Whereas our elections, less than 50% of our population supported the current governing party, they just happened to be bigger than the other mobs. So for instance we could have say 33% of Canadians supproting said party, and maybe that would translate to a similar outcome on a yes/no vote. I'll bet the conservatives would get more than their 33% if they had an initiative aimed at senate reform.
Technically any voting is mob rule. Whichever mob is biggest gets the go ahead. Ballot initiatives would entail something like a simple yes or no. Whereas our elections, less than 50% of our population supported the current governing party, they just happened to be bigger than the other mobs. So for instance we could have say 33% of Canadians supproting said party, and maybe that would translate to a similar outcome on a yes/no vote. I'll bet the conservatives would get more than their 33% if they had an initiative aimed at senate reform.
Genius
Posts: 931
November 19th, 2006, 05:04 PM
What about the idea that ballot initiatives can lead to the majority always getting it's way on every issue, at the expense of the minority, no matter how much it affects that minority. Whereas, with government, each party has a number of issues to deal with. If it angers the minority enough, on enough issues, collectively the minorities becomes a majority.
Quoting Tonington
If I can play Devil's Advocate for a moment here....
Technically any voting is mob rule. Whichever mob is biggest gets the go ahead. Ballot initiatives would entail something like a simple yes or no. Whereas our elections, less than 50% of our population supported the current governing party, they just happened to be bigger than the other mobs. So for instance we could have say 33% of Canadians supproting said party, and maybe that would translate to a similar outcome on a yes/no vote. I'll bet the conservatives would get more than their 33% if they had an initiative aimed at senate reform.
What about the idea that ballot initiatives can lead to the majority always getting it's way on every issue, at the expense of the minority, no matter how much it affects that minority. Whereas, with government, each party has a number of issues to deal with. If it angers the minority enough, on enough issues, collectively the minorities becomes a majority.
Member
Posts: 80
Location: Chicoutimi, Québec
Location: Chicoutimi, Québec
November 21st, 2006, 03:29 PM
Ballot initiatives are the worst thing to ever happen to American democracy, and the best thing to ever happen to right-wing politicians. For instance, if a Republican governor is up for re-election in some state, all he has to do to rally his base and get people coming out of the woodwork to vote for him is to also present a ballot initiative on gay marriage during the same election cycle. All of a sudden, all the religious fanatics in the state are showing up to vote NO for gay marriage, and vote YES for the guy who's responsible for the referendum. It's not an increase of democracy, it's a political tool.
Representative democracy wins again, and for the reason that not only does it tend to mostly reflect the opinion of the majority, it also protects the rights of the minority.
Ballot initiatives are the worst thing to ever happen to American democracy, and the best thing to ever happen to right-wing politicians. For instance, if a Republican governor is up for re-election in some state, all he has to do to rally his base and get people coming out of the woodwork to vote for him is to also present a ballot initiative on gay marriage during the same election cycle. All of a sudden, all the religious fanatics in the state are showing up to vote NO for gay marriage, and vote YES for the guy who's responsible for the referendum. It's not an increase of democracy, it's a political tool.
Representative democracy wins again, and for the reason that not only does it tend to mostly reflect the opinion of the majority, it also protects the rights of the minority.
