Bright Spark
Posts: 496 
Location: In Monsoon West (B.C)
Location: In Monsoon West (B.C)
October 16th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Now it appears that the Conservatives who have only been in office 9 months, which is good they haven't ruined the country yet are in a close race with the Liberals. And that is with a leaderless Liberal party the latest results done on Oct 12 had the
Cons; 36%
Liberals; 32%
NDP: 16.5%
BLOC: 10%
Green: 6.6 %
So just think if the Liberals pick the right leader at this convention in Decemember, they will surely be back in office next spring, or the NDP will. However if they pick the wrong leader at this convention they will have to wait longer, possibly four leaders before they can get back in office.
However, I don't see the Harper cons lasting that long four to five more years, and I wouild see bitter infighting and the destruction of the party if they do lose horribly this spring.
Now it appears that the Conservatives who have only been in office 9 months, which is good they haven't ruined the country yet are in a close race with the Liberals. And that is with a leaderless Liberal party the latest results done on Oct 12 had the
Cons; 36%
Liberals; 32%
NDP: 16.5%
BLOC: 10%
Green: 6.6 %
So just think if the Liberals pick the right leader at this convention in Decemember, they will surely be back in office next spring, or the NDP will. However if they pick the wrong leader at this convention they will have to wait longer, possibly four leaders before they can get back in office.
However, I don't see the Harper cons lasting that long four to five more years, and I wouild see bitter infighting and the destruction of the party if they do lose horribly this spring.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 3,154
October 16th, 2006, 02:41 PM
It is unthinkable to return the Liberal Party to government any time soon. Synonymous with corruption and wild mismanagement of key ministries like justice and immigration, the party simply does not deserve any Canadian plurality.
I'd like to see Harper get another term, minority or majority, and I'd like to see some effort given to restoring Canadians' faith in their parliamentary system, citizenship and what it is they want as their future.
I'm surprised any Liberal has the nerve to face a concerned Canadian in public. I have nothing but the lowest regard for the party and its members.
It is unthinkable to return the Liberal Party to government any time soon. Synonymous with corruption and wild mismanagement of key ministries like justice and immigration, the party simply does not deserve any Canadian plurality.
I'd like to see Harper get another term, minority or majority, and I'd like to see some effort given to restoring Canadians' faith in their parliamentary system, citizenship and what it is they want as their future.
I'm surprised any Liberal has the nerve to face a concerned Canadian in public. I have nothing but the lowest regard for the party and its members.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,137 
October 16th, 2006, 03:39 PM
I thought it was time the Liberals stepped down for a while as well., but we have to remember that Canada's economy is one of the strongest around and Canada is still a great place to live. The liberals didn't do any great damage to the country---or the parliamentary sytem----certainly no more than Brian Mulroney's crowd who threw out at least one of their cabinet ministers because of corruption every year they were in office.
Quoting tamarin
Come on...
It is unthinkable to return the Liberal Party to government any time soon. Synonymous with corruption and wild mismanagement of key ministries like justice and immigration, the party simply does not deserve any Canadian plurality.
I'd like to see Harper get another term, minority or majority, and I'd like to see some effort given to restoring Canadians' faith in their parliamentary system, citizenship and what it is they want as their future.
I'm surprised any Liberal has the nerve to face a concerned Canadian in public. I have nothing but the lowest regard for the party and its members.
I'd like to see Harper get another term, minority or majority, and I'd like to see some effort given to restoring Canadians' faith in their parliamentary system, citizenship and what it is they want as their future.
I'm surprised any Liberal has the nerve to face a concerned Canadian in public. I have nothing but the lowest regard for the party and its members.
I thought it was time the Liberals stepped down for a while as well., but we have to remember that Canada's economy is one of the strongest around and Canada is still a great place to live. The liberals didn't do any great damage to the country---or the parliamentary sytem----certainly no more than Brian Mulroney's crowd who threw out at least one of their cabinet ministers because of corruption every year they were in office.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
October 16th, 2006, 04:22 PM
All politicians are the same, it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether they're PC Liberal,Green or Purple.....
No Canadian can exercise the leverage of any multi-national corporation, it's that simple. When a corporation decides (or threatens) to move its manufacturing or its packaging or its transportation or its advertising dollars out of the nation you'd better believe that the goons in Ottawa pay attention. If you or I or the average person threatens to do something...what leverage do you think you have to influence Ottawa?
Democracy is long dead, we live in a world of corporate government and so the party label or the name on the door of the PMO doesn't make one bit of difference. Why do Canadians insist that it does?
All politicians are the same, it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether they're PC Liberal,Green or Purple.....
No Canadian can exercise the leverage of any multi-national corporation, it's that simple. When a corporation decides (or threatens) to move its manufacturing or its packaging or its transportation or its advertising dollars out of the nation you'd better believe that the goons in Ottawa pay attention. If you or I or the average person threatens to do something...what leverage do you think you have to influence Ottawa?
Democracy is long dead, we live in a world of corporate government and so the party label or the name on the door of the PMO doesn't make one bit of difference. Why do Canadians insist that it does?
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
October 17th, 2006, 02:01 AM
The next Liberal leader will matter alot in different areas. Really we will either see more Gains by the NDP, or we will see the NDP lose big.
I think either way there is no way the Con's will have the support of over 40% in the polls. Which is a pitty we have a FPTP system. However the Liberals abused it for the past 14 years so I guess it's the conservatives time.
The next Liberal leader will matter alot in different areas. Really we will either see more Gains by the NDP, or we will see the NDP lose big.
I think either way there is no way the Con's will have the support of over 40% in the polls. Which is a pitty we have a FPTP system. However the Liberals abused it for the past 14 years so I guess it's the conservatives time.
Genius
Posts: 814
Location: Eastern Ontario
Location: Eastern Ontario
October 17th, 2006, 08:18 AM
All politians are the same only because we do not demand better!!
Zeller's was a horrible store until wal-mart came and started to take thier business..then that got better..why? Because we found out things could be better and started to demand it ... When did Bell get better....with their was true competion...
When we demand accountablility..when we truly punish a party for past deed's when we put gov. official's in jail for robbing the public or using the office for personal gain that's when we will have a better system. NOT WHEN WE STOP VOTING BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!!!
Quoting MikeyDB
There in a nutshell is the problem with our country...No one including my good friend Mickey here could care less!!
All politicians are the same, it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether they're PC Liberal,Green or Purple.....
No Canadian can exercise the leverage of any multi-national corporation, it's that simple. When a corporation decides (or threatens) to move its manufacturing or its packaging or its transportation or its advertising dollars out of the nation you'd better believe that the goons in Ottawa pay attention. If you or I or the average person threatens to do something...what leverage do you think you have to influence Ottawa?
Democracy is long dead, we live in a world of corporate government and so the party label or the name on the door of the PMO doesn't make one bit of difference. Why do Canadians insist that it does?
No Canadian can exercise the leverage of any multi-national corporation, it's that simple. When a corporation decides (or threatens) to move its manufacturing or its packaging or its transportation or its advertising dollars out of the nation you'd better believe that the goons in Ottawa pay attention. If you or I or the average person threatens to do something...what leverage do you think you have to influence Ottawa?
Democracy is long dead, we live in a world of corporate government and so the party label or the name on the door of the PMO doesn't make one bit of difference. Why do Canadians insist that it does?
All politians are the same only because we do not demand better!!
Zeller's was a horrible store until wal-mart came and started to take thier business..then that got better..why? Because we found out things could be better and started to demand it ... When did Bell get better....with their was true competion...
When we demand accountablility..when we truly punish a party for past deed's when we put gov. official's in jail for robbing the public or using the office for personal gain that's when we will have a better system. NOT WHEN WE STOP VOTING BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!!!
Executive Member
Posts: 9,137
October 17th, 2006, 08:41 AM
Quoting ottawabill
More Canadians have to get involved at the grass roots level. I don't believe all the politicians are the same but if they are, it is our own fault. Rather than just complaining, we have get involved in our riding and take a hand in determining who we send to Ottawa. I have worked with, and met politicians of every stripe and conclude that many politicians are very good people. Where we go wrong, is letting the parties decide who is going to run. If we get involved in the riding associations we can affect the outcome. We must not let ourselves get into the situation where less than half of us even vote. If we don't vote, we have no right to complain. Keeping the democracy we want, means we have to keep working at it.
There in a nutshell is the problem with our country...No one including my good friend Mickey here could care less!!
All politians are the same only because we do not demand better!!
Zeller's was a horrible store until wal-mart came and started to take thier business..then that got better..why? Because we found out things could be better and started to demand it ... When did Bell get better....with their was true competion...
When we demand accountablility..when we truly punish a party for past deed's when we put gov. official's in jail for robbing the public or using the office for personal gain that's when we will have a better system. NOT WHEN WE STOP VOTING BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!!!
All politians are the same only because we do not demand better!!
Zeller's was a horrible store until wal-mart came and started to take thier business..then that got better..why? Because we found out things could be better and started to demand it ... When did Bell get better....with their was true competion...
When we demand accountablility..when we truly punish a party for past deed's when we put gov. official's in jail for robbing the public or using the office for personal gain that's when we will have a better system. NOT WHEN WE STOP VOTING BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!!!
Clever Clogs
Posts: 647
October 17th, 2006, 10:03 AM
Canadian politicians are no more or less corrupt that any politician in any other country. And as the case with the liberals currently there are consequences to this corruption. There do need to be greater controls to lobbying and access to information but we will have to now wait for the liberals to return to power for these to be instituted.
The problem is in the civil service/bureaucracy. This is the area that most of Gomery’s criticisms were aimed at. No one in Canada appears to have any interest or appetite in cleaning this up. In the case of HRDC it was the civil service that screwed everything up and not the various ministers. The ministers did not deal with the problems and they need to be faulted there.
But exactly the same screw ups that occurred under the liberals are on-going with the conservatives. The pattern is the civil service--where there is zero accountability and very little transparency--systematically breaks rules and laws and when these are discovered the minister’s office tries to cover them up or ignores what happened and this creates the political scandal.
I still see Michael Ignatieff as the next Liberal PM. Ignatieff has not grown up in the culture of the liberal party or Canadian politics and so is in large part an outsider who will bring in a fresh perspective.
Canadian politicians are no more or less corrupt that any politician in any other country. And as the case with the liberals currently there are consequences to this corruption. There do need to be greater controls to lobbying and access to information but we will have to now wait for the liberals to return to power for these to be instituted.
The problem is in the civil service/bureaucracy. This is the area that most of Gomery’s criticisms were aimed at. No one in Canada appears to have any interest or appetite in cleaning this up. In the case of HRDC it was the civil service that screwed everything up and not the various ministers. The ministers did not deal with the problems and they need to be faulted there.
But exactly the same screw ups that occurred under the liberals are on-going with the conservatives. The pattern is the civil service--where there is zero accountability and very little transparency--systematically breaks rules and laws and when these are discovered the minister’s office tries to cover them up or ignores what happened and this creates the political scandal.
I still see Michael Ignatieff as the next Liberal PM. Ignatieff has not grown up in the culture of the liberal party or Canadian politics and so is in large part an outsider who will bring in a fresh perspective.
Genius
Posts: 814
Location: Eastern Ontario
Location: Eastern Ontario
October 17th, 2006, 11:26 AM
We have let our system fall apart.... We only are interested in the party and the leader....but we don't vote for the leader....Our system is suppose to work by consent.
Jean Cretien started this top down approach that has become engrained. To try to put a good spin on it..the Martin gov. try to get elected with "Team Martin" what team?? The prime Minister makes a decree and everyone gets in line behind him and the party policy.
Why do we vote for a member if the leader controls the gov.??
What if a like my local member but hate the leader? Do I vote for the local member who has no say or do I vote for the leader of another party by electing a unknown local rep??? we've got so problems here!!!!
The honest truth is we don't have any real leadership only a bunch of middle managers who run for office..we should expect better..we should demand better.
The last REAL leader we had was P.E.T. don't get me wrong I think the man made a mess of things..but he had ideas and he had a course of action....All I've seen since then has been..gov by polls..mushy mushy mushy
We have let our system fall apart.... We only are interested in the party and the leader....but we don't vote for the leader....Our system is suppose to work by consent.
Jean Cretien started this top down approach that has become engrained. To try to put a good spin on it..the Martin gov. try to get elected with "Team Martin" what team?? The prime Minister makes a decree and everyone gets in line behind him and the party policy.
Why do we vote for a member if the leader controls the gov.??
What if a like my local member but hate the leader? Do I vote for the local member who has no say or do I vote for the leader of another party by electing a unknown local rep??? we've got so problems here!!!!
The honest truth is we don't have any real leadership only a bunch of middle managers who run for office..we should expect better..we should demand better.
The last REAL leader we had was P.E.T. don't get me wrong I think the man made a mess of things..but he had ideas and he had a course of action....All I've seen since then has been..gov by polls..mushy mushy mushy
Senate Member
Posts: 5,155
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
October 17th, 2006, 01:10 PM
I have to say, agree with them or not, I don't think the Harper gov't has been particularly "mushy", in fact, IMHO it has been a great relief to see someone with cojones running the place.
Examples:
1. Refusing to "cut and run" from Afghanistan
2. Supporting Israel in its fight with Hezbollah.
3. Cutting the throat of Kyoto.
4.Holding a vote (soon) on re-opening the same-sex marriage debate.
These things are all issues that polarize people politically, and dealing with them from a firm position is politically risky in the extreme. You've got to admit, at least this gov't knows where it stands.
I have to say, agree with them or not, I don't think the Harper gov't has been particularly "mushy", in fact, IMHO it has been a great relief to see someone with cojones running the place.
Examples:
1. Refusing to "cut and run" from Afghanistan
2. Supporting Israel in its fight with Hezbollah.
3. Cutting the throat of Kyoto.
4.Holding a vote (soon) on re-opening the same-sex marriage debate.
These things are all issues that polarize people politically, and dealing with them from a firm position is politically risky in the extreme. You've got to admit, at least this gov't knows where it stands.
Genius
Posts: 814
Location: Eastern Ontario
Location: Eastern Ontario
October 17th, 2006, 01:15 PM
You are right Colpy...I just got carried away thinking of how terrible the Liberals have been just trying to remain in power for Power's sake!!!
As much as I am not sure that Mr. Harper has a vision he is direct straightforward and generally stays on course....Somewhat like Mike Harris was...You could fault Mr. Harris all you wanted to but if he said it..he did it!!
You are right Colpy...I just got carried away thinking of how terrible the Liberals have been just trying to remain in power for Power's sake!!!
As much as I am not sure that Mr. Harper has a vision he is direct straightforward and generally stays on course....Somewhat like Mike Harris was...You could fault Mr. Harris all you wanted to but if he said it..he did it!!
Bright Spark
Posts: 279
Location: Ontario, Sadly
Location: Ontario, Sadly
October 17th, 2006, 01:22 PM
Quoting Researcher87
I think those voters who are currently supporting the Liberals can look at the current short list of leadership candidates and find one that they like. However when there is a leader chosen those same liberal supporters will have to decide if they support that leader. With Bob Rae as leader I think alot of Ontario based voters will change there mind about supporting the Liberals. With Michael Ignatieff as leader alot of anti-American liberals may change their mind. The other candidates bring their own problems - Kennedy isn't well known outside of Ontario, Dion is an long-time liberal who was around for the scandals. Once a leader is chosen liberal support will drop.
Now it appears that the Conservatives who have only been in office 9 months, which is good they haven't ruined the country yet are in a close race with the Liberals. And that is with a leaderless Liberal party the latest results done on Oct 12 had the
Cons; 36%
Liberals; 32%
NDP: 16.5%
BLOC: 10%
Green: 6.6 %
So just think if the Liberals pick the right leader at this convention in Decemember, they will surely be back in office next spring, or the NDP will. However if they pick the wrong leader at this convention they will have to wait longer, possibly four leaders before they can get back in office.
However, I don't see the Harper cons lasting that long four to five more years, and I wouild see bitter infighting and the destruction of the party if they do lose horribly this spring.
Cons; 36%
Liberals; 32%
NDP: 16.5%
BLOC: 10%
Green: 6.6 %
So just think if the Liberals pick the right leader at this convention in Decemember, they will surely be back in office next spring, or the NDP will. However if they pick the wrong leader at this convention they will have to wait longer, possibly four leaders before they can get back in office.
However, I don't see the Harper cons lasting that long four to five more years, and I wouild see bitter infighting and the destruction of the party if they do lose horribly this spring.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 3,154
October 17th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Five, you're simply not soaked enough in the country's political history or old enough to demand better of its governors. Wait 'til you're 45! Liberals are the party of special interest and they look after their club members first. Toe the line, be unswervingly obedient, support the flood of PC programming and social engineering and you'll get along just great with the Libs.
Juan, the Canadian economy isn't bad but anyone watching the screen knows the majority of new jobs have occurred in the part-time, contract and service sector. That's a mushy approach to growth. Manufacturing is in retreat and the real jobs that sustain an economy and give the hardpressed middle class a decent income are running somewhere across the Pacific. Canadians need a chance for an economy that spreads the bucks farther and thicker than regulation-crazy Liberals would allow. We need politicians who support the growth of private enterprise, reward communities who revitalize and get the hell out of the way so that entrepreneurs aren't drowned in red tape and kissbacks to governing parties.
Five, you're simply not soaked enough in the country's political history or old enough to demand better of its governors. Wait 'til you're 45! Liberals are the party of special interest and they look after their club members first. Toe the line, be unswervingly obedient, support the flood of PC programming and social engineering and you'll get along just great with the Libs.
Juan, the Canadian economy isn't bad but anyone watching the screen knows the majority of new jobs have occurred in the part-time, contract and service sector. That's a mushy approach to growth. Manufacturing is in retreat and the real jobs that sustain an economy and give the hardpressed middle class a decent income are running somewhere across the Pacific. Canadians need a chance for an economy that spreads the bucks farther and thicker than regulation-crazy Liberals would allow. We need politicians who support the growth of private enterprise, reward communities who revitalize and get the hell out of the way so that entrepreneurs aren't drowned in red tape and kissbacks to governing parties.
