Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465 
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
July 21st, 2006, 02:54 PM
Quoting
The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled on several occasions that the hate propaganda laws presently in place are not unconstitutional. I would argue that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, by virtue of Section 1, grants the Government of Canada the right to prescribe lawful restrictions on the freedom of speech to preserve peace, order and good government.
Brock[/i]]See I think that your views (and that of the supporters) on hate speech are extremist and divisive and illegal to act upon.
Electoral Member
Posts: 684
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 21st, 2006, 03:25 PM
There are no legal issues with people saying ‘something I don’t like’. As is the case of having to bother with poor arguments. I say, express yourself and good luck for having put yourself out there.
I only have a problem with actions, whether by physical expression, or vocal/written expression that causes harm through hatred against another Canadian. It requires nothing to be directed towards me personally. It’s simply defending any Canadians in their right to live ‘freely’ in our society without persecution for who they simply ‘are’ based on culture, religion, or identity.
On another note, tolerance and intolerance become only words in the value that we use them.
I am “tolerant” of the use of torture.
I am “intolerant” of the use of torture.
I am “tolerant” of a ban on torture.
I am “intolerant” of a ban on torture.
The words start meaning very different things depending on how one wishes to cast them.
Quoting
I'll leave it at this, cause your right. You hate the fact people might say something you don't like and it now lands people in jail....you know it and so do I.
Tolerance you say...I say it's intolerance.
Tolerance you say...I say it's intolerance.
There are no legal issues with people saying ‘something I don’t like’. As is the case of having to bother with poor arguments. I say, express yourself and good luck for having put yourself out there.
I only have a problem with actions, whether by physical expression, or vocal/written expression that causes harm through hatred against another Canadian. It requires nothing to be directed towards me personally. It’s simply defending any Canadians in their right to live ‘freely’ in our society without persecution for who they simply ‘are’ based on culture, religion, or identity.
On another note, tolerance and intolerance become only words in the value that we use them.
I am “tolerant” of the use of torture.
I am “intolerant” of the use of torture.
I am “tolerant” of a ban on torture.
I am “intolerant” of a ban on torture.
The words start meaning very different things depending on how one wishes to cast them.
Bright Spark
Posts: 443
Location: Sarnia
Location: Sarnia
July 21st, 2006, 03:43 PM
No one had ever suggested that we rid the nation of firehalls because firefighters start blazes. No one ever suggested that we rid ourselves of the Catholic church because priests had molested young boys. I don't know where or how you've reached that conclusion.
This is not off-topic because it speaks to the nature of humanity and the necessity for people to profit on the backs of others' misfortune. The entire game of life, ostensibly, is to make excuses for evil, profit from evil, and ensure that evil continues to exist to feed our self-centered and selfish interests.
Just like everyone else, I find myself constantly making excuses for evil. Whether it's defending a person that is spewing hatred in a forum such as this, a police officer who used excessive force in dealing with an offender, or a nation that has its priorities all out of whack. I do this not because I sympathize with those for which I defend, I don't even do it because I believe them to be in the right, I do it merely in the recognition of fault on everyone's side. It's just the nature of the beast, and I feel that we, as a people, must continue to support the lesser evil. In so doing, we can only hope that by diminishing evil through a slow and gradual process, we can eventually eliminate the evils that plague our society.
The original post was about how Canadians live in harmony with each other despite our differences. Clearly, the person who made the original post, has a very shallow persception of life in Canada. There is little to no harmony among Canada's peoples, and there will likely never exist harmony. The simple fact of the matter is that people profit from hostility. As long as people continue to profit from hostility, hostility will continue to plague our society. It's really just that simple.
As for me, I have grown weary of making excuses for certain elements. There are certain people that I am no longer able to forgive and forget. I find that I have become entangled in the mesh of hatred, and that my only escape is to destroy those that have targetted me. I cannot rationalize the situation and establish any other course of action that would satisfy my mind and deeply rooted hunger for justice.
Personally, I feel that I have spent too much of my life walking away from problems and pretending that they will just go away on their own. They won't. I would have to be very naive to think that they ever would. Yet, that was precisely my line of thinking for the last four to five years. I'm not about to continue any further in this fantasy that justice will prevail without my immediate and absolute call to action.
I have had a rather rude awakening of sorts. I have come to recognize that the system was not designed to work for the people, but to work against the people -- with more focus, to work the people. Justice does not come to those who are wronged. Instead, the victim must fight his/her own brave and galliant battle. Justice is not a right -- it is a prize to be won.
No one had ever suggested that we rid the nation of firehalls because firefighters start blazes. No one ever suggested that we rid ourselves of the Catholic church because priests had molested young boys. I don't know where or how you've reached that conclusion.
This is not off-topic because it speaks to the nature of humanity and the necessity for people to profit on the backs of others' misfortune. The entire game of life, ostensibly, is to make excuses for evil, profit from evil, and ensure that evil continues to exist to feed our self-centered and selfish interests.
Just like everyone else, I find myself constantly making excuses for evil. Whether it's defending a person that is spewing hatred in a forum such as this, a police officer who used excessive force in dealing with an offender, or a nation that has its priorities all out of whack. I do this not because I sympathize with those for which I defend, I don't even do it because I believe them to be in the right, I do it merely in the recognition of fault on everyone's side. It's just the nature of the beast, and I feel that we, as a people, must continue to support the lesser evil. In so doing, we can only hope that by diminishing evil through a slow and gradual process, we can eventually eliminate the evils that plague our society.
The original post was about how Canadians live in harmony with each other despite our differences. Clearly, the person who made the original post, has a very shallow persception of life in Canada. There is little to no harmony among Canada's peoples, and there will likely never exist harmony. The simple fact of the matter is that people profit from hostility. As long as people continue to profit from hostility, hostility will continue to plague our society. It's really just that simple.
As for me, I have grown weary of making excuses for certain elements. There are certain people that I am no longer able to forgive and forget. I find that I have become entangled in the mesh of hatred, and that my only escape is to destroy those that have targetted me. I cannot rationalize the situation and establish any other course of action that would satisfy my mind and deeply rooted hunger for justice.
Personally, I feel that I have spent too much of my life walking away from problems and pretending that they will just go away on their own. They won't. I would have to be very naive to think that they ever would. Yet, that was precisely my line of thinking for the last four to five years. I'm not about to continue any further in this fantasy that justice will prevail without my immediate and absolute call to action.
I have had a rather rude awakening of sorts. I have come to recognize that the system was not designed to work for the people, but to work against the people -- with more focus, to work the people. Justice does not come to those who are wronged. Instead, the victim must fight his/her own brave and galliant battle. Justice is not a right -- it is a prize to be won.
Quoting
If the institution is trying to ensure that children continue to exist in abusive circumstances, then that is the fault of the institution. Not a fault in the idea of helping people or children.
I once heard of a firefighter setting buildings on fire because he loved firefighting and being regarded as a hero putting out the fires. Does that mean we get rid of firehalls across the country? No, of course not.
There are also priests that molest young boys, but it shouldn't be about collective reasoning then to condemn all religious institutions.
There are a lot of humanitarian groups that do a lot of good for people.
This is somewhat going off topic however.
I once heard of a firefighter setting buildings on fire because he loved firefighting and being regarded as a hero putting out the fires. Does that mean we get rid of firehalls across the country? No, of course not.
There are also priests that molest young boys, but it shouldn't be about collective reasoning then to condemn all religious institutions.
There are a lot of humanitarian groups that do a lot of good for people.
This is somewhat going off topic however.
Genius
Posts: 931
July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM
I would say that Canada is a relatively peaceful nation. Other than the October Crisis and 1 major terrorist attack, I can not think of many (recent) times where Canadians have had violent political conflicts with eachother. The separatists in Canada, for the most part, have worked for independence via non-violent methods. Compare that with other countries. Yes we have crime in Canada, but so does practically every country. In terms of foreign conflicts, yes we have been involved in many wars, but how many of those wars did we provoke?
I would argue that using words to incite violence should be a crime. Other than that, yes, freedom of speech is important. However, I have a theoretical question to ask you. If someone is speaking out and encouraging people to kill other people based on race, religion etc, and those people go out and actually kill those people, should that person not be held at least somewhat responsible? I realize that is probably a more extreme case of hate speech, but I'm just to demonstrate that there are certain types of hate speech which, in my opinion, should be illegal, even if it is a fine line between the two.
I would say that Canada is a relatively peaceful nation. Other than the October Crisis and 1 major terrorist attack, I can not think of many (recent) times where Canadians have had violent political conflicts with eachother. The separatists in Canada, for the most part, have worked for independence via non-violent methods. Compare that with other countries. Yes we have crime in Canada, but so does practically every country. In terms of foreign conflicts, yes we have been involved in many wars, but how many of those wars did we provoke?
Quote:
Jay,
Hate laws are simply a tool to step on freedom of speech and promote a political agenda through the courts. I'm not concerned that the KKK has things to say or the fundamentalist Islamofascist has rhetoric that offends other members of society. I have a problem when they actually commit crimes and break real laws.
I would argue that using words to incite violence should be a crime. Other than that, yes, freedom of speech is important. However, I have a theoretical question to ask you. If someone is speaking out and encouraging people to kill other people based on race, religion etc, and those people go out and actually kill those people, should that person not be held at least somewhat responsible? I realize that is probably a more extreme case of hate speech, but I'm just to demonstrate that there are certain types of hate speech which, in my opinion, should be illegal, even if it is a fine line between the two.
Bright Spark
Posts: 443
Location: Sarnia
Location: Sarnia
July 21st, 2006, 07:40 PM
I find it most out of character for a democratic nation to impose restrictions on speech, that supress the right of the people to be dissatisfied, and to express that dissatisfaction. If we can't be critical of our governments, if we must allow our governments to run rough shot over our freedoms in the name of peace, order, and good government, then why even bother having elections? Surely, you would not be one to suggest that government should have exclusive say over what is best for the people? And if so, why even bother having a people?
Your post sort of reminds me of an old Bertolt Brecht poem. Bertolt Brecht wrote of the Soviet government having lost the confidence of the people, and through propaganda and leaflets, had embarked on a campaign to dissolve the people and form a new citizenry.
Quoting
This is where I disagree with you, FiveParadox. I believe that the people have every right to be critical of government and other institutions that have a profound affect on our society as a whole. Anyone that knows me sufficiently well, will no doubt acknowledge that I believe this right extends to private institutions as well. Quoting
The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled on several occasions that the hate propaganda laws presently in place are not unconstitutional. I would argue that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, by virtue of Section 1, grants the Government of Canada the right to prescribe lawful restrictions on the freedom of speech to preserve peace, order and good government.
Brock[/i]]See I think that your views (and that of the supporters) on hate speech are extremist and divisive and illegal to act upon.
I find it most out of character for a democratic nation to impose restrictions on speech, that supress the right of the people to be dissatisfied, and to express that dissatisfaction. If we can't be critical of our governments, if we must allow our governments to run rough shot over our freedoms in the name of peace, order, and good government, then why even bother having elections? Surely, you would not be one to suggest that government should have exclusive say over what is best for the people? And if so, why even bother having a people?
Your post sort of reminds me of an old Bertolt Brecht poem. Bertolt Brecht wrote of the Soviet government having lost the confidence of the people, and through propaganda and leaflets, had embarked on a campaign to dissolve the people and form a new citizenry.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
July 21st, 2006, 10:27 PM
Hm, I don't think you're going to be getting my vote, SaintLucifer. I'm one of those "disgusting" gays you speak of (while not one to distribute flyers), and I don't think I would feel particularly safe in your version of Canada. Disgusting, and hateful? A mirror, my friend.
Hm, I don't think you're going to be getting my vote, SaintLucifer. I'm one of those "disgusting" gays you speak of (while not one to distribute flyers), and I don't think I would feel particularly safe in your version of Canada. Disgusting, and hateful? A mirror, my friend.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
July 21st, 2006, 10:51 PM
Quoting
I would sooner die. Don't you dare compare me to the likes of you, again.
SaintLucifer[/i]]I nominate you as one of my first candidates to join my Fascist Party of Canada!
Bright Spark
Posts: 315
July 21st, 2006, 11:08 PM
So essentially you have no personal values, except to oppose whoever you interact with. Essentially you are just playing a construct here.
You are just a deparately sad little troll wanting attention. You don't know how to get positive attention, so you play the negative game.
Aeon and his hate was genuine, you are just amusing. It you really want to annoy people you need to study genuine hate as personified in Aeon. You are falling woefully short of that benchmark.
Quoting
Given your previous position on religion, I would think you would cheer this result. <snip: unacceptable>
Quoting
There is a disingenuous ring to everything you type. I don't think I have witnessed anyone that you haven't tried to insult, even if you have to reverse on a previous postion to do it.
I should like to remind you once again that I am an atheist who believes in the destruction of all religions. All of them. Not just Islam. Every single religion that exists.
So essentially you have no personal values, except to oppose whoever you interact with. Essentially you are just playing a construct here.
You are just a deparately sad little troll wanting attention. You don't know how to get positive attention, so you play the negative game.
Aeon and his hate was genuine, you are just amusing. It you really want to annoy people you need to study genuine hate as personified in Aeon. You are falling woefully short of that benchmark.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
July 21st, 2006, 11:15 PM
I am not going to play into your game, SaintLucifer. Consider the affair dealt with.
I am not going to play into your game, SaintLucifer. Consider the affair dealt with.
