$2.1Billion for military machines

Karlin

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Jun 27, 2004
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You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Actually, it will be 16.3 billion dollars before the summer is out. New ships (supply) new trucks, new helicopters, and on and on.

It is about time.
 

aeon

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Jan 17, 2006
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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Colpy said:
Actually, it will be 16.3 billion dollars before the summer is out. New ships (supply) new trucks, new helicopters, and on and on.

It is about time.


Military budget,Fuck Yeah, let's spend more money on machines that will kill more peoples around the world, great.
 

Mogz

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Jan 26, 2006
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Nice thinking aeon, but you fail to realize that everything that is being purchased, is of a logistical nature. Transport trucks, lift helicopters, transport planes, replenishment ships. Nothing that is being bought is of an aggressive nature. Their roles are clearly defined in a theatre of Operations, as well in Canada itself. You really need to stop being so damned suburban.
 

Colpy

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Aeon, you should really open a newspaper once in a while.

The new ships are supply ships decked out to re-supply our ships at sea, transport military equipment, and they have the capability to be used as hospital ships. No killing there.

Trucks are trucks.

The helicopters are large transport choppers, used to move men and equipment.

Likewise the aircraft they are buying.

Any of this gear could be as easily used in humanitarian or peacekeeping roles as in warfare. If you want Canada to be involved in the world in ANY capacity, our military need the capabnilty to move goods, be it ammunition , soldiers, and weapons, or food, water cleaning equipment, tents, and medical supplies.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Colpy wrote:
It is about time.

Is it ever.
As I've said on that other thread, I don't know how the a$$ holles we elect could let our military slip to the state it is in. Our military needs this new equipment, but it also needs another fifty to seventy thousand people to get up to a minimum level for a country the size of Canada.
 

BitWhys

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Apr 5, 2006
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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Colpy said:
...
Trucks are trucks.
...

The ones I see tootling around the 'peg on occasion only lead me to conclude that if mechanics ruled the world we'd be more than just a contender.

I hope we import some of this shit. The economy is hot enough as it is.
 

Colpy

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Si vis pacem, parabellum (If you wish for peace, prepare for war)

Only the dead have seen the end of war. -- Plato
 

Mogz

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Jan 26, 2006
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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

BitWhys said:
Colpy said:
...
Trucks are trucks.
...

The ones I see tootling around the 'peg on occasion only lead me to conclude that if mechanics ruled the world we'd be more than just a contender.

I hope we import some of this shit. The economy is hot enough as it is.

FYI, the only Military trucks you'll see bombing around Winnipeg would be reservist vehicles. The worst of the worst.
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

BitWhys said:
Colpy said:
...
Trucks are trucks.
...

The ones I see tootling around the 'peg on occasion only lead me to conclude that if mechanics ruled the world we'd be more than just a contender.

I hope we import some of this shit. The economy is hot enough as it is.

I believe that most of the stuff we are buying will be "off the shelf", and not built in Canada.

I'd like to see the ships built here, but that's just because of where I live.

The cheapest, best, quickest way IMHO is how it should be done.
 

BitWhys

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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Colpy said:
...
I'd like to see the ships built here, but that's just because of where I live...

yeah that's what I was thinking too. not because I live there just because that's a tradition well worth keeping in the family.
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Mogz said:
Sadly, as i've highlighted in other posts, the Canadian Government often avoids the cheapest and quickest ways, in favour of ways that'll mean everything is produced in Canada. It's a stigma our Nation cannot get away from.

Check out my previous post regarding things "made in Canada":

http://www.canadiancontent.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15563&highlight=upholder

Yeah, I read your post, and it is a scandal how equiping the military has become a political hog trough.

That said, I believe the frigates built here in Saint John were good ships, delivered on time and under budget.

Even at that, I'd buy them off shore if we could get 4 for the price of 3, and quickly.
 

thecdn

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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Mogz said:
Check out my previous post regarding things "made in Canada"

Oh great, you had to remind me of that piece of crap lsvw. How many known defects did that thing enter the system with?

How is tcccs doing? I left in 98 so I never saw it introduced. I heard all about it as it seems a quarter of the members of 746 were working for CDC at one time or another.

It's probably a good system but another instance of we could have got more, quicker if we'd bought off the shelf.
 

EastSideScotian

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Jun 9, 2006
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RE: $2.1Billion for milit

We should really go on a huge spending binge if the thruth be told, Especaily for Airforce, we need some new Fighters, And it wouldnt hurt to get some Apaches, and a ton of blackhawks and heavy lift copters like chinooks and for the navy super stailions would be ideal.

Navy, I donno about to many new ships I say we need more than 2 main Naval bases first before we go to crazy, but steath ships would be ideal. then build the navy up to a safe number about 250 warships and patrol ships throw in 4 aircraft carriers and have 2 out at sea at all times, loaded with new fighters......

I know thats wont ever happen, but if we were to ever become a super power that would be a decent start.
 

Mogz

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Jan 26, 2006
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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Colpy said:
Mogz said:
Sadly, as i've highlighted in other posts, the Canadian Government often avoids the cheapest and quickest ways, in favour of ways that'll mean everything is produced in Canada. It's a stigma our Nation cannot get away from.

Check out my previous post regarding things "made in Canada":

http://www.canadiancontent.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15563&highlight=upholder

Yeah, I read your post, and it is a scandal how equiping the military has become a political hog trough.

That said, I believe the frigates built here in Saint John were good ships, delivered on time and under budget.

Even at that, I'd buy them off shore if we could get 4 for the price of 3, and quickly.

You're right colpy, it is a shame. However I will never argue that the Halifax Class aren't good ships, they are, amazingly so. For sure one of the best things ever built in Canada. A friend of mine serves on HMCS Fredriction, and he loves it, by far better than the Iroquois Class he says.

Oh great, you had to remind me of that piece of crap lsvw. How many known defects did that thing enter the system with?

How is tcccs doing? I left in 98 so I never saw it introduced. I heard all about it as it seems a quarter of the members of 746 were working for CDC at one time or another.

It's probably a good system but another instance of we could have got more, quicker if we'd bought off the shelf.

I'm not sure off the top of my head how many knowns defects the LS had, however I do know that when it first entered the Land Force, it had poor clearance and the transmission would be ripped off when it went off roading. The fix? Weld a steel "bumper" at a 45 degree angle in front of the tranny to deflect anything that could rip it off. Disgusting.

TCCCS is really good actually. It can be flunky at times, but having the ability to remote trucks together via fiber optic means more people on the means, yet less radios over all. The 521 system sucks though, that's the LAR (light assault radio) and it's range is like 2km on a good day, usually hovers around the 800m mark. Not worth it really. Other than that thought TCCCS is a decent system, it's complicated for the average soldier, but most Signallers are pretty handy with it.

We should really go on a huge spending binge if the thruth be told, Especaily for Airforce, we need some new Fighters, And it wouldnt hurt to get some Apaches, and a ton of blackhawks and heavy lift copters like chinooks and for the navy super stailions would be ideal.

Navy, I donno about to many new ships I say we need more than 2 main Naval bases first before we go to crazy, but steath ships would be ideal. then build the navy up to a safe number about 250 warships and patrol ships throw in 4 aircraft carriers and have 2 out at sea at all times, loaded with new fighters......

I know thats wont ever happen, but if we were to ever become a super power that would be a decent start.

I won't argue Scotian, however I Just don't see our military ever getting to that point. I do agree our Air Force does need things; Fighters would be good (we should, as far as I know, still be getting Joint Strike Fighters when they start to roll out), and Apaches would be a great force multiplier for our Land Force, especially in Afghanistan. Blackhawks would be amazing, enough of this Griffon shit, it'd be great to have an aircraft that could haul heavy loads right in to combat. We ARE getting Chinooks however, in fact the CDS, General Rick Hillier will be at Steele Barracks (Edmonton) tomorrow to deliever a speech. I'll be for sure attending that to hear what he has to say. The rumor is that the CF will be getting around 20 refurbished F series Chinooks from the U.S. Not as good as new, but still, I won't complain, and we'll get them right away which is a bonus. As for our Navy, yeah, it needs to be expanded, especially in the Artic Patrol capacity, and our Coast Defence arm. A few carriers would be nice, and the Conservatives have looked at building and/or buying two WASP Class LHD-1's from the United States. While not TRUE carriers, they'd still get the job done. We doo need to expand our surface fleet however, 12 Frigates and 4 Destroyers is not enough to project our interests abroad. Just to put it all in perspective, Canada had the following ship allotments during World War II:

Aircraft Carriers: 2
Cruisers: 5
Destroyers: 28
Frigates: 70
Corvettes: 131
Escort Destroyers: 96
Total:332

Our current Naval strength:

Frigates: 12
Destroyers: 4
Coast Defence Vessels: 12
Submarines: 4
Replenishment Ships: 2
Research Ship: 1
Total:35

Amazing how a nation can go from the 3rd largest Navy in the World to one of the smallest. Boggles my mind.
 

Finder

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We were only third largest for a short time after ww2. Considering there were only a few navies still afloat after the war thats not a big deal.

However I too feel that the military needs a booster. Don't forget this eqipment will help us fullfill our peacekeeping missions as well in the future and it is vital that Canada has the ability to send, support our troops across the sea. The boost which the Canadian military is getting right now may appear to be expensive but really is the least we can do.

BTW our Frigates are some of the best in the world. The rest of our navy is lacking. If there is one part of the Canadian forces I think we should keep strong is our Navy, for it's uses help police our borders from things such as the drug trade to illegal fishing with in our borders. Without our strong Navy the fishing crisis with Spain in the 90's may have gone the other way. Our ships were able as a show of force tell Spain that sending a few destoryers wouldn't stop us from defending our borders and the laws.
 

aeon

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Jan 17, 2006
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Re: RE: $2.1Billion for military machines

Mogz said:
Nice thinking aeon, but you fail to realize that everything that is being purchased, is of a logistical nature. Transport trucks, lift helicopters, transport planes, replenishment ships. Nothing that is being bought is of an aggressive nature. Their roles are clearly defined in a theatre of Operations, as well in Canada itself. You really need to stop being so damned suburban.


Hey, we are the 15th best army in the world, yes i admit, it needs some repairs, but we should starting abolishing military in the world if we really want something called PEACE.
 

Mogz

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Jan 26, 2006
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Without our strong Navy the fishing crisis with Spain in the 90's may have gone the other way. Our ships were able as a show of force tell Spain that sending a few destoryers wouldn't stop us from defending our borders and the laws.

Very true. The fishing crisis with Spain is the closest we came to going to War with a Nation by ourselves in a long, long, long time. What a lot of people don't know about the Canadian Navy, is that while indeed small (too small), it does utilize some excellent equipment. Our Halifax Class Guided Missile Frigates sport Harpoon Anti-Surface missiles (can be used to attack both land and sea targets) and harpoons have an incredible range with their built-in targeting systems. When used in conjunction with our Command and Control Destroyers (Iroqouis Class) advanced warfare targeting suites, their range almost doubles. Not many Navys on the planet have that capability (and those that do are our closest allies) so it puts us at a distinct advantage. Any Spanish floatilla that were to engage a Canadian task group would be picked apart by guided missile fire, from ships well outside their own range. Couple that with CF-18 Support from Bagotville, using Air to Surface missiles, and you've got a deadly outcome.

Hey, we are the 15th best army in the world, yes i admit, it needs some repairs, but we should starting abolishing military in the world if we really want something called PEACE.

Where are you drawing the fact that we're the 15th best Army? What constitutes being the best? What the parameters for determining the ranking? I figure you're deeming us the 15th best, based on our defence spending, 15th biggest spender. Throwing money at your military doesn't mean you're the best. In fact, many Nations, with smaller budgets, often turn out to be the best militaries on the planet. A great example is Belgium, they spend only around 2.7 Billion a year on defence. Compare their Army to France, who spends 29.5 Billion, and i'd take the Belgians any day of the week. Take training for example, I think that the training standards of a military contribue largely to the standing of said military in a ranking system. Americans, are poorly trained when compared to their Allies. A great example is the CNN special that aired a while ago regarding Combat Engineers in Iraq. The video shows some engineers examining a possible IED in a car on the side of the road. After some deliberation, they decide to push it off the road with a Hummer. The bumper of the hummer hits the car and it explodes (command detonated). I myself, am not an Engineer, but given my training, I know you don't move a suspect IED and/or mine unless you're certain it won't go off. To see American Combat Engineers blundering around a combat zone, that concerns me. No, we're not the 15th best Army in the World, we're a lot closer to the top, and that's not me bragging, that's fact. We produce hard, well trained soldiers, who right now, as we speak, are kicking ass in Afghanistan on a level unseen in decades. We're talking kill ratios of 130:1 (Captain Goddard). The best Army is the World is the Royal Army, the British do it better than anyone else, and i'm not ashamed to admit it. I wish we were that good at what we do.

With regard to peace aeon, it's a pipe-dream. Peace will never happen, and abolishing our military will only leave us utterly defenceless. Not something i'm willing to condone.