NDP Could Learn from Swedish Social Democrats

[Toro]

Sweden's open mind is 'model' for Franceand Germany

By Ralph Atkins andMark Schieritz in Frankfurt

Published: June 21 2006 03:00 | Last updated: June 21 2006 03:00

Sweden's economic revival has been built on an open attitude to free trade and globalisation that contrasts with a "more inward-looking tradition" in France, according to Pär Nuder, the country's finance minister.

France and Germany could learn from the Scandinavian "model", Mr Nuder said in an interview with the FT. But the Social Democratic politician, a close ally of Göran Persson, Sweden's prime minister, argued Sweden had learnt "the hard way" about the need to accept change.

"We are small and very much dependent on the world around us. So we have a conviction in our genes about free trade," Mr Nuder said. "We are open-minded about the world around us and that is a competitive advantage in a globalised economy - maybe contrary, for instance, to France where you have a more inward-looking tradition."

He added: "I'm rather afraid of the protectionist tendencies that we see around Europe. That's not the way for Europe to go,for sure."

The economic performance of Scandinavian economies, which combine a strong state role with robust economic growth, has attracted attention of policymakers in Paris and Berlin. Since 1999, growth in Sweden - which is not part of the 12-country eurozone - has averaged 2.8 per cent a year, compared with 1.8 per cent inside the eurozone. Sweden, Finland and Denmark have also cut unemployment rates since the mid-1990s.

The "Scandinavian model" includes strengthening incentives for people to work. Mr Nuder argued: "How you design a social security system has a direct impact on people's willingness to adjust. That hasa direct impact on acountry's competitiveness".

Even "neo-liberal" colleagues in European finance ministries were "watching what we are doing in the Scandinavian countries" because of voters' fear of globalisation, Mr Nuder said before meeting Gordon Brown and Peer Steinbrück, his UK and German counterparts, to watch the England/Sweden world cup football match in Cologne last night.

"We have more 'pro-change' trade unions than continental Europe because the trade unions know we have robust and stable social security systems. We don't have trade unions where there are very loud, strong minorities, organised Trotskyites, that can say No to any change that is proposed by the management."

Mr Nuder stressed the importance of Germany and France controlling their public sector deficits. Steps Sweden had taken since its 1990s fiscal crisis to shore up public finances had become an "enormous asset". The country had also invested in education and research, and used family-orientated policies to encourage female participation in the workforce.

The Swedish finance minister admitted his country had in the past enjoyed the advantages of not being part of a monetary union. "When we went through our budget consolidation period, we were rewarded with lower and lower interest rates . . . that is not the German case. On the other hand, they need to tackle their deficit during the good times."

Mr Nuder said he hoped Sweden would join the eurozone "one day". Swedes had rejected membership in a 2003 referendum. The debate about joining has been shelved by politicians until at least 2010.

The result was a loss of political influence in Europe, Mr Nuder said. He was excluded from "eurogroup" meetings of eurozone finance ministers, where "a lot of the discussion about the state of the economy [takes] place in Europe".

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/78507d42-00c2-11db-8078-0000779e2340.html

 

[athabaska]

After 18 federal elections.... never being in opposition and currently locked in 4 consecutive elections as a distant 4th party in the House of Commons...don't expect the NDP learn anything. the federal NDP is dead in Alberta. Dead in Quebec and dead in any riding in which you don't find Starbucks.

 

[Jersay]

Keep Dreaming Starbucks boy.

With 2.6 million votes, and 29 seats. the NDP isn't dead. Far from it.

 

[BitWhys]

and I'd hardly call Winnipeg North and Winnipeg Central and Elmwood-Trancona latte zones, although Transcona does have its moments its readily offset by all the bikers and wrestlers that have taken part in their annual Hi Neighbour Festival over the years.

Interesting topic Toros. No doubt Sweden isn't perfect but its parties like the Social Democrats and their successes that give rise to challenges against the contemporary wisdom by their very existence.

 

[BitWhys]

Say Toros, what countries make up the "Eurozone" and where are they getting their GDP numbers? OECD Europe and the EU 15 both clock in at 2.2% in constant prices and exchange 99 to 04. Sweden at 2.9.

You aren't implying the NDP are opposed to free trade, are you?

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: NDP Could Learn from Swedish Social Democrats

Say Toros, what countries make up the "Eurozone" and where are they getting their GDP numbers? OECD Europe and the EU 15 both clock in at 2.2% in constant prices and exchange 99 to 04. Sweden at 2.9.

The Eurozone are the 12 member states who use the euro. I'm not sure where the article gets its numbers since there are no references, and there are several ways to get to those numbers, depending on what currencies you use, but Scandanavia has grown faster than continental Europe.

You aren't implying the NDP are opposed to free trade, are you?

I can't think of any trade deal the NDP has not opposed. The NDP has been against GATT, the WTO, the FTA, NAFTA, etc.

I know, I know, the next argument is "Well, we just don't support those agreements." Well, then point to any NDPer saying that free trade is a good thing, even under another agreement? Show me an NDPer making the traditional Adam Smith/David Ricardo argument for free trade? (Actually, I do know of one, but just one.) When has an NDPer ever advocated unilaterally dropping tariffs without trade agreements, as free traders do? And since most trade is done by large corporations, show me an NDPer making the argument that we should make it easier for corporations to facilitate exchange and commerce across borders?

Re-read the statements by the Swedish minister. Note what he said about globalization. Then ask if the NDP generally approaches globalization as the Swedes do or as the French and Germans? Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression - which has been drastically reinforced coming to message boards such as this one - is that the NDP are fundamentally hostile to globalization, similair to the French and the Germans.

 

[BitWhys]

please

Ricardo's theory and current neo-liberal practice are two entirely different things.

re: your non sequitur
I would certainly hope none of them have ever argued in favour of practices modelled on a world that no longer, indeed probably never has and definitely never will exist since that would be foolish.

This sort of position is much more to my liking...

Diversifying our trade has a lot to recommend it. But fair has to be fair.

- December 1, 2005

and this from an old numbers man...

Canada is just 2 percent of a 55 trillion dollar global economy.

Just 2 percent.

The truth is, whatever we may think about the rules of global capitalism, today with a bias to trade that is free, investment that is global, labour that is mobile, a central bank that is independent, and annual government budgets that are balanced, Canada does not have much say in how the global economy operates and if we want a seat at this table then these are the rules we are going to be working with.

And by sitting at this table we can at least make the Canadian case for trade that is fair and free, investment that empowers and fits our democratic priorities.

But within this global context, I believe that our economic strategy, our conversation with Canadians should be about how we will invest in ourselves while embracing prosperity.

- October 15, 2005

 

[Toro]

please

Ricardo's theory and current neo-liberal practice are two entirely different things.

re: your non sequitur
I would certainly hope none of them have ever argued in favour of practices modelled on a world that no longer, indeed probably never has and definitely never will exist since that would be foolish.

The structure of global trade deals (which are mercantilist by nature) and other ancillary factors such as currency systems do not diminish the values from the gains of trades one iota. The gains from trade today are no different than they were 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 1000 years ago. It does not matter if you are trading with the guy across the street or the guy across the world. Trade increases competition and specialization, which spurs technological innovation and drives wealth creation. We understand this, which is why tariffs across the globe have fallen from around 40% at the end of WWII to 4% today.

 

[BitWhys]

aside from the pom-poms, I think that was Jack's point. just because the NDP is the only party outside of Quebec to speak up against, as you so aptly put it, the mercantalism of current neo-liberal policies doesn't make them wholesale opposed to the concept. I realize "fair trade" has developed a jingoism of its own and is presently poorly defined but that, since it involes a more realistic approach, is the nature of the beast.

personally I'm all for free trade. In fact I consider it well worth striving for but I think we need to remember it is a means to an end, not an end in itself and its priority in any given situation should never be assumed.

A lot of what I see going on is much akin to lipstick on a pig and a lot of what's touted as being in the interests of "free trade" is more talk than walk and manages to conveniently serve other purposes.

I picked up Stiglitz, btw.

 

[Finder]

I aghree the NDP could learn from other Social Democratic parties such as UK's Labour party and the Swedish Social Democrats. Yes the Fed NDP are stuck in the 80's and 90's with their current economic theory and social relivence, but I think out of all the parties I'd rather have the NDP in charge because they are closest to my economic and social expectations of a Canadian party.

Anyhow, the Democrats might be the 4th place party, but they are and almost always been the third place finisher in populer vote. Besides a few elections they have always had a large votingblock and because of FPTP these peoples votes do not count as much as Liberal, conservative and Bloq votes because the NDP support is spread out and thus by FPTP is punished for this fact that the NDP are not a highly regionalist party, but one who's support is general throughout our nation.

Will the NDP form a government... most likely one year, you should never count out a political party. Whenever you do that they always seem to surprise you.

 

[BitWhys]

...Yes the Fed NDP are stuck in the 80's and 90's with their current economic theory and social relivence,...

exactly which Fed NDP policies are you basing that statement on?

I'm particularly interested in the economic policies.

 

[Finder]

...Yes the Fed NDP are stuck in the 80's and 90's with their current economic theory and social relivence,...

exactly which Fed NDP policies are you basing that statement on?

I'm particularly interested in the economic policies.

A good chunk of their electoral promises. In which I will find for you.... but not tonight (as I am just finishing a 12 hour night shift... or maybe I will)

 

[BitWhys]

here

let me make it easier for you

Abolishing Right of Landing Fee
Increasing the federal child tax credit by $250 each year for four years
Increasing the basic personal credit
Decreasing the lowest personal income rate to 15 per cent
Training for security and border guards
Victims of terror fund
Millennium development goals
Chinese head tax apology fund
National conservation fund
National park fund
Additional Kyoto funding
Farm income stabilization fund
Pine beetle emergency fund
Support for artists and the arts
Affordable and co-op housing
Immigrant settlement program
Crystal meth initiatives
Youth-at-risk initiatives
National victim assistance program
National witness protection program
Prescription drug plan
National cancer strategy
Health care provider training
Creating new non-profit child-care spaces (four-year plan)
Improvements to border crossings to aid the auto industry
Expansion of home-care services
Increasing number of hospital long-term care spaces
Post-secondary transfer payments
Federal student grant program
Funding for aboriginal programs, announced at the Kelowna summit
Accelerated gas tax dispersal to cities and communities

have at 'er

 

[Finder]

Anyhow, my main point is this. While Labour/Social Democratic and even Democratic Socialist parties have changed there political thinking during and after elections to reflect changes in society and current policical situations. The New Democratic Party of Canada (The Federal party) has actually done a 180 towards the 1980's/1990's welfare state approach. Now Canada and social democratic parties do need to support social programs, but by in large a reliance on the welfare state brought many western nations close to economic ruin.

When you look at almost any Social Democratic party in Europe or even socialist parties, you can see in the past 10-20 years they have slowly moved more to the economic right in many area's accepted what are often taken as economic "realities" and dropping some "Marxist" or "Neo-Marxist" principles picked up over time.

It's an endless list of these leftist parties which have adopted largely centre to centre left leanings.

UK-Labour
German-SDP
Swedish-SDP
Moldovian-Communist
Spainish-Socialist
and generally the Left Alliance in Italy as well has adopted largely right wing economic theories.

I have not looked into the French socialist parties new platform but I would bet if you looked at it now compaired to 20 years ago it would be a lot more right then it was. However I can not say foir sure with those guys as I have not looked up the French socialist party policy for a long time.


I think generally the best thing the New Democrats in Canada can do is the emulate something between the British Labour party and the German SPD as they in my view have a nicely moderate view on economic policy.

 

[BitWhys]

I'm not asking about your main point since you are entitled to you opinion. I'm asking about the one are presently stepping around.

which policies? how much? what makes them a throwback to the 80s and 90s?

 

[Finder]

Tell me without even getting into how many of the policies you have thrown at me without going into detale yourself are not even under the Federal governments derestriction, but that of the provincial governments. Healthcare, education, housing! All provincial matters, yet the New Democrats wish to expand the roll of the federal government to new limits forceing other parties to take some of the NDP's populist policies. I'm an NDP supporter and member but there should be a limit to how much interferance the federal parties have over the provincies.

 

[BitWhys]

so that's your final answer?

 

[BitWhys]

Tell me without even getting into how many of the policies you have thrown at me without going into detale yourself are not even under the Federal governments derestriction, but that of the provincial governments. Healthcare, education, housing! All provincial matters, yet the New Democrats wish to expand the roll of the federal government to new limits forceing other parties to take some of the NDP's populist policies. I'm an NDP supporter and member but there should be a limit to how much interferance the federal parties have over the provincies.

what's to debate? you said a "good chunk" of the fed NDP "electoral promises" are "stuck in the 80s and 90s". so there's the list. everything with a dollar attached to it. you sounded so confident I figured you'd find that easy pickings. even if constitutional governance were an economic policy, which I gotta tell you is more than a bit of a stretch, I don't see how dealing with it properly in a contemporary fashion can be learned from modelling public policy in a Swedish fashion.