Conservative Daycare Proposal Better than Quebec Model

Toro

Senate Member
Equity and Quebec's daycare program

One of the Conservatives' election campaign promises was to provide financial support to parents directly, to the tune of $1,200 per child. Progressive-minded commentators have condemned this policy in no uncertain terms; their preferred model runs more along the lines of the Quebec government's $7/day (formerly $5/day) program. Maybe it shouldn't.

At the meetings of the Canadian Economics Association in Montreal last month, the Innis Lecture was given by my colleague Jean-Yves Duclos. The title of his talk was 'Equity and Equality', and he offered the Quebec daycare program as a classic case of a policy that appears to be progressive, but which turns out not to be.

Jean-Yves mentioned two types of equity that are generally discussed in public economics: vertical equity (which favours the redistribution from the top end of the income distribution to the lower end), and horizontal equity (which calls for identical treatment of identical individuals).

Suppose that it's been decided that public funds should be use to help parents defray the costs of child care. How does the Quebec model fit in?

First, let's consider two individuals (in practice, invariably the mother), A and B. A and B are identical in every way that matters, except for one thing: A would prefer to stay home and raise her children, while B would prefer to work. Both options are costly. A is obliged to sacrifice the income that she could have obtained by going to work, and B must deal with the financial costs of child care. (Of course, the costs are not just financial: both choices involve significant levels of stress and foregone opportunities.)

If the announced goal of a child-care policy is to help parents defray these costs, then according to the principle of horizontal equity, there's no reason for the government to choose to help one of these mothers and not the other. It turns out that the Quebec model fails this test: it chooses to help B, notwithstanding the fact that A and B are identical in every respect other than the choice of going to work or staying at home.

Since the only way to benefit from this program is to choose to go to work, it's not so much a child care program so much as a program designed to encourage mothers to return to work; Pierre Lefebvre and Phil Merrigan at UQAM have found that - unsurprisingly - the labour supply of women has increased (source - pdf file).

So the Quebec model fails the horizontal equity test. What about vertical equity? Mathieu Grenier, a MA student at UQAM wrote his thesis (available here) under the direction of Lefebre and Merrigan last year on this topic. Here are some of his findings, taken from Tables 5.5 and 5.6:



The utilisation rates and subsidies received increase with income. It's not difficult to come up with some plausible explanations for why this would be the case:

* High-skilled women are more likely to choose to work than those with fewer skills.
* The daycare system is almost entirely designed for those with 9-to-5 jobs, the sort that low-income workers are less likely to have.

So the Quebec model fails the vertical equity test as well.

What about the Conservatives' proposal? Since it's available to all parents, it satisfies the horizontal equity criterion. And since the payments are all equal and all subject to the (progressive) income tax, it satisfies the vertical equity criterion as well.

This doesn't mean that the Conservatives' proposal is perfect, of course. But if progressives are looking for a better alternative that satisfies the basic criteria for equity, it shouldn't be looking at the Quebec model.

From the excellent Worthwhile Canadian Initiative blog.
 

Graeme

Electoral Member
Jun 5, 2006
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Jersay said:
A conservative blog non the less. Therefore bunch of lies. It doesn't help everyone, not by a long shot.

why don't you say what is wrong with the logic instead of just your rhetoric.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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www.mytimenow.net
rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric and moe rhetoric.

Anyhow I don't support the plan either as it can be mis-used easyily and being setup as a tax credit may not be fully usable by some people. I think the Liberal plan was much better then this.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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It doesn't help everyone. Simple. It can be clawed back. It doesn't create spaces period.

There you happy.

I think the Liberals plan was kind of bad, because it was put together to just get votes after thirteen years of doing nothing.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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The liberal plan was an attempt to show NDP and progressive voters that it was safe to vote Liberal, then to vote NDP as a protest to the right wing Liberal economic policies of government (as every election they been elected to has been left wing but once in government turn there back on progressive voters).
 

Graeme

Electoral Member
Jun 5, 2006
349
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Actually the daycare allowence is supposed to get set up not to be clawed back, but that is a provincial thing. The federal government is trying to make it so the provinces don't do claw backs.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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Excellent article. As someone whose wife has been in the daycare industry for a couple of decades as a provider, which necessarily means I have been exposed to this and other topics, the Conservative plan is much better than the Liberal plan.

Keep in mind, subsidies will not evaporate, as some lefties will try to tell you. The child tax credit will not disappear, rather this $1200 per year is in addition to the regular CTC. The $1200 per year will have no impact on means test to determine the CTC.

As far as tax clawbacks, the lower end of the income scale will likely never see any clawback, based on family income. If the entire amount is clawed back, then the income levels for the people getting it are rather large in any case.

But lets take a look at the lower income levels. If someone is making say $8 per hour for a 40 hour week, that is a monthly gross of approx. $1300. Less CPP, EI and tax, that individual will net in the area of $1150.00 per month, after CPP, EI and taxes are deducted. With one child at say $475 per month, this then leaves this individual with $675.00 per month. At even $7 per day for meals (one) for 22 work days per month, another $154.00 comes off leaving this individual with $521.00. There is the cost of either fuel or transit to get to work, say at least $100.00 leaving $421.00. There is usually a clothing cost that needs to be addressed, so lets say another $50.00 per month, depending on the job. Some may be more, some less. That then leaves $371.00 per month. Adding back subsidy of approx. 50% ($240.00 plus a CTC of say $50.00, that leaves this individual with about $661.00 for housing, food, and entertainment. Not taking into consideration the tax credits at the end of the year, this is not a hell of a lot of money, and I want you who oppose this plan to tell this individual that the extra $100 per month will not be a benefit to them.

Is this a perfect system? Of course not, but it is not a blatant and obvious vote buying policy as was the Liberal plan. As far as new daycare spaces, I guess those who oppose this plan did not get the memo about the budget item for creating new spaces?

Give the Conservatives a chance, the more they are in power, the more they are proving to not only have sound policies, but to actually keep their word on their policy promises. Quite a change from the previous lying regime.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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You got to be kidding me. The Liberal party was just some pipe dream they come up one night. the Conservative idea is just stupid because it has taken place in at least in two provinces and didn't work. How is it suppose to work in a country setting??
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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Jersay said:
You got to be kidding me. The Liberal party was just some pipe dream they come up one night. the Conservative idea is just stupid because it has taken place in at least in two provinces and didn't work. How is it suppose to work in a country setting??

What exactly the hell are you talking about? The Liberal plan was all about 9 - 5 Kids R Us daycare centers on every corner of the big centers, and did virtually nothing for the shift workers, and especially did nothing for rural people requiring daycare. Get it straight, man, get it straight!
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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Jersay said:
Yes actually. I am done University until the Fall. Yeah no more fees. :D

Good, now when you get in the real world and start understanding things, your attitude will change. Especially when you see your hard earned money being taxed to support a ridiculous social policy you don't agree with.
 

Vicious

Electoral Member
May 12, 2006
293
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Ontario, Sadly
The best day care plan is to eliminate government daycare plans. It might be time for some politician to stand up and say that the governement isn't there to solve all your problems. The line should be drawn at daycare. You decided to bring them into the world, you are responsible for them. Life is hard, live by your decisions and stop asking everyone else to pay for your choices.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Jersay said:
A conservative blog non the less. Therefore bunch of lies. It doesn't help everyone, not by a long shot.

What are lies?

You are sooooo blinded by ideology, I've argued repeatly that the Liberal daycare scheme was a welfare program for the well-to-do. My only information on the subject was personal experience, and the observation of my friends and family.

Let me say it again.....daycares are exclusively set up for the 9 to 5 crowd. The working poor don't work 9 to 5, they work at stores in the evenings, in restaurants and bars all hours, or shift work in call centres and industry.

Who works 9 to 5?

Upper income professionals.

As i know from experience, uneducated lower wage women are more apt to make the necessary sacrifices to stay home and raise their own children (Quelle Horror!), they have less to lose. With the NDP or Liberals THEY GET NOTHING, while upper middle class professionals get daycare subsidized by the rest of us. INSANITY!

Even transportation to and from convenient day care is extremely problamatic for the working poor, IF they decided to both work and IF they had 9 to 5 jobs.

The article above is DEAD ON!

I only wish the subsidy offered by Harper et al was doubled, and tied to the Child Tax Credit, so only the poorer families got it.

BUT, the left gives no thought to the actually reality of the working poor........they are simply caught up in some brain-dead ideological obsession with day care spaces........
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
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36
Proud to be in Alberta
Colpy said:
Jersay said:
A conservative blog non the less. Therefore bunch of lies. It doesn't help everyone, not by a long shot.

What are lies?

You are sooooo blinded by ideology, I've argued repeatly that the Liberal daycare scheme was a welfare program for the well-to-do. My only information on the subject was personal experience, and the observation of my friends and family.

Let me say it again.....daycares are exclusively set up for the 9 to 5 crowd. The working poor don't work 9 to 5, they work at stores in the evenings, in restaurants and bars all hours, or shift work in call centres and industry.

Who works 9 to 5?

Upper income professionals.

As i know from experience, uneducated lower wage women are more apt to make the necessary sacrifices to stay home and raise their own children (Quelle Horror!), they have less to lose. With the NDP or Liberals THEY GET NOTHING, while upper middle class professionals get daycare subsidized by the rest of us. INSANITY!

Even transportation to and from convenient day care is extremely problamatic for the working poor, IF they decided to both work and IF they had 9 to 5 jobs.

The article above is DEAD ON!

I only wish the subsidy offered by Harper et al was doubled, and tied to the Child Tax Credit, so only the poorer families got it.

BUT, the left gives no thought to the actually reality of the working poor........they are simply caught up in some brain-dead ideological obsession with day care spaces........

Excellent post, Colpy. I cannot help but think of the Pink Floyd movie 'The Wall' whenever I hear about the LIberal daycare plan. Kids R' Us concrete buildings on every street corner, painted red and white, open 9 - 5 with daycare workers in uniforms. """Shudder"""""

In all seriousness, this is something I have said for a long time, that the liberal plan does nothing for the working poor, or the shift worker, or the rural community, said community which exists outside the big urban cities. Small town Canada would not benefit from this.

What really gets me is the claims that with the Harper plan there will no longer be the Child Tax Credit (a lie), that it will affect subsidies (another lie) and that this will be taken into consideration when doing means tests for other programs, such as the CTC (yet another lie). Sooner or later the left has got to quit fearmongering. They are the little boy who keeps crying wolf. They should shut up with their lies and quit spreading fear and distrust. But then, if you are on the left, I guess you have to go with your strengths, such as they are!! :wink:
 

Toro

Senate Member
More on the Quebec model

Canada's Universal Childcare Hurt Children and Families

"Children's outcomes have worsened since the program was introduced along a variety of behavioral and health dimensions. "

The percent of mothers who work in the paid labor force in North America has been rising, and the increased demand for childcare accompanying the rise of two-earner couples has captured the attention of public policymakers. In both Canada and the United States, there are large subsidies for early child care for low-income families, with modest tax subsidies for middle- and upper-income families for either childcare or pre-school. But interest has been growing in moving towards more universal subsidies towards early childcare along the lines of many nations in Europe. In Canada, the province of Quebec introduced universal subsidies to childcare over the period 1997-2000, and a major point of contention in the recent Parliamentary election was the extension of similar programs nationwide. In the United States, universal pre-school programs have been passed by states such as Georgia, New York, and Oklahoma, and there is a major battle shaping up over a ballot initiative for universal pre-school in California. Unfortunately, these debates are raging largely in an evidence vacuum.

In Universal Childcare, Maternal Labor Supply, and Family Well-Being (NBER Working Paper No. 11832), authors Michael Baker, Jonathan Gruber, and Kevin Milligan measure the implications of universal childcare by studying the effects of the Quebec Family Policy. Beginning in 1997, the Canadian province of Quebec extended full-time kindergarten to all 5-year olds and included the provision of childcare at an out-of-pocket price of $5 per day to all 4-year olds. This $5 per day policy was extended to all 3-year olds in 1998, all 2-year olds in 1999, and finally to all children younger than 2 years old in 2000. Since welfare reform and other changes were occurring for single mothers over this time period, the authors focus on the effects of this policy on the married and cohabiting women and their children who received most of the new subsidies under this policy. They use data from the National Longitudinal Study of Canadian Youth (NLSCY), a large longitudinal survey of children inside and outside of Quebec, to develop the first comprehensive analysis of a universal subsidized childcare program, following its impact from childcare use through employment and finally to children's and parent's outcomes.

The authors first find that there was an enormous rise in childcare use in response to these subsidies: childcare use rose by one-third over just a few years. About a third of this shift appears to arise from women who previously had informal arrangements moving into the formal (subsidized) sector, and there were also equally large shifts from family and friend-based child care to paid care. Correspondingly, there was a large rise in the labor supply of married women when this program was introduced.

Disturbingly, the authors report that children's outcomes have worsened since the program was introduced along a variety of behavioral and health dimensions. The NLSCY contains a host of measures of child well being developed by social scientists, ranging from aggression and hyperactivity, to motor-social skills, to illness. Along virtually every one of these dimensions, children in Quebec see their outcomes deteriorate relative to children in the rest of the nation over this time period. Their results imply that this policy resulted in a rise of anxiety of children exposed to this new program of between 60 percent and 150 percent, and a decline in motor/social skills of between 8 percent and 20 percent. These findings represent a sharp break from previous trends in Quebec and the rest of the nation, and there are no such effects found for older children who were not subject to this policy change.

The authors also find that families became more strained with the introduction of the program, as manifested in more hostile, less consistent parenting, worse adult mental health, and lower relationship satisfaction for mothers.


The authors caution that their results are subject to a number of interpretations that highlight the importance of future work in this area. Most importantly, it is not clear whether the negative child outcomes are short-run transitions or long-term effects. Nevertheless, they caution that this subject requires more study before recommendations can be made about the long-run benefits of universal childcare

http://www.nber.org/digest/jun06/w11832.html