Do socialists deserve to be in the military

Jersay

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Dec 1, 2005
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Now I am beginning to wonder. What is wrong for a socialist or a left-leaning guy to get into the military??

Now in this forums alone I have had at least six people surprised that I am socialist and a soldier.

So why is it unbelievable that a socialist wants to be in the army??
 

cortezzz

Electoral Member
Apr 8, 2006
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i seems reasonable to me
that one can be a socialist and a soldier


but i am curious---- jersay
what percentage of your fellow soldiers
would you estimate
are left leaning
 

Jersay

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Last election before the ads of the military by the Libs.

I heard 60% supported the Liberals, 20% NDP, and 20% COnservative. Now, I really don't know. I now an officer really likes the Liberals and a NCM likes the COns here. However, the NDP candidate won in my election so I don't know if some voted NDP. I did.
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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As I said when In another thread, when I was in the Canadian Armed forces they try very hard to change your world view so you think in terms of the extreme right. At least in the Queens own and many other Toronto regs. They used to demean us by calling us communists, pinkos and socialists and we were supposed to believe these terms were BAD.... not to mention I was a big time socialist at the time and my friend who was in there with me who didn't make it past QL2 was a Maoist.

I don't agree with the brain washing they do during basic training but it really does change people on the left. I do admit I think it changed me as well. Though I never lost touch with my left wing roots, but I know many people who have totally changed into extreme conservatives from there time in the military


Edit: It's immportant that you don't let people know you are an NDP supporter in the military... the NDP is not liked among them and if you do say you support them you might wanna play dumb to the reasons and pick the more conservative aspects of the NDP platform such as governmental reform to talk about.
 

Jersay

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:lol:

That's a good one.

I'm not to sure about the military and its politics. In some countries it is well known that soldiers have created councils and protests that have socialist leanings. For example in Germany and Russia but elsewhere as well.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Do socialists "deserve"? I think you asked the wrong question.

Can socialists serve, I think would be more appropriate. As long as you keep your mouth shut and follow orders, then it doesn't matter what you believe.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Do socialists deserve to be in the military

cortezzz said:
the sociialists----should be the ones giving the orders
not taking them

Whew! thank God that's not happening!

But I thought socialists disavowed taking orders! I thought everything was a democracy!!??

"Okay, who here votes that we land on Normandy. And who here votes we land in Calais?"
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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Re: RE: Do socialists deserve to be in the military

Toro said:
"Okay, who here votes that we land on Normandy. And who here votes we land in Calais?"

First we'll need an environmental study.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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Re: RE: Do socialists deserve to be in the military

Toro said:
Kreskin said:
Toro said:
"Okay, who here votes that we land on Normandy. And who here votes we land in Calais?"

First we'll need an environmental study.

:lol: :lol:

And make sure that anyone working over 40 hours a week gets time and a half!

Ha Ha. If the extra time claws back other benefits then we'll just wait - for monday morning, no weekends.
 

Jersay

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Dec 1, 2005
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I think not said:
Do socialists "deserve"? I think you asked the wrong question.

Can socialists serve, I think would be more appropriate. As long as you keep your mouth shut and follow orders, then it doesn't matter what you believe.

Good point.

So why do people go crazy if you say your socialist? I have had it happen to me six times at least.
 

Finder

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The Canadian armed forces is extremely conservative. Also we do not have a soldurers union like they do in many nations. Nothing.

And really he was right as long as you shut up and don't let them say either change you or piss you off as I am sure many things they will say will do either to you, as long as you say nothing you will be fine.

It is extremely hard being left wing in the military. Even being Liberal can be pushing it at times.

They will be stright up with you too. They don't want tree hugers they want people who will be able to kill others with mere orders. They will train you like they trained me, how to kill somebody with your bare hands. They will train you how to sneak up on somebody in enemy terriroty or anywhere indeed and be able to snap there neck with one move... not to injure but to end somebodys life who might have a family and kids at home. They will teach you how to fire a c7 assult riffle and aim it perfectly in the centre mass, in which it will not kill the person most likely... right away at least... but force others to come out to help him thus you can pick them off as well, ending more lifes and ruining more families. Indeed they will teach you how to throw a granade and show you the effects of modern warfare and such grandes being used in combat in iraq and the fulkland islands and show you the wounds they make. I still can't get some of the things I saw out of my mind. The sound of a saw cutting threw flesh and bone when they do battle field surgry. The sight of yellow and white buss coming out of the wounds. All apart of the desensitization process to violance. This is only the process for violance there are many more to weaken your own sence of individiality and to increase your nationalism. I'm surprised if any one of the left can come out of the Canadian armed forces as a new Democrat, unless you can remember threw your training that much what they are teaching you is only brain washing and it is not right. but then you have to live with yourself being in a job you disagree with.

I was lucky that I was not allowed to switch regiments because I was willing to stay if they did. I'm happy that I had not stayed with the Canadian Armed forces but I miss it as well for some reason. I really do miss having my C 7 assult riffle, the training and learning these deadly skills and being with my fellow soldurers who were going threw the same hell. But in retro spect I think it's for the better that I left when I did. I'm sure it would have kept changing me if I had stayed.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Finder said:
As I said when In another thread, when I was in the Canadian Armed forces they try very hard to change your world view so you think in terms of the extreme right. At least in the Queens own and many other Toronto regs. They used to demean us by calling us communists, pinkos and socialists and we were supposed to believe these terms were BAD.... not to mention I was a big time socialist at the time and my friend who was in there with me who didn't make it past QL2 was a Maoist.

I don't agree with the brain washing they do during basic training but it really does change people on the left. I do admit I think it changed me as well. Though I never lost touch with my left wing roots, but I know many people who have totally changed into extreme conservatives from there time in the military


Edit: It's immportant that you don't let people know you are an NDP supporter in the military... the NDP is not liked among them and if you do say you support them you might wanna play dumb to the reasons and pick the more conservative aspects of the NDP platform such as governmental reform to talk about.

I am very interested in any additional information you could supply on this topic, as you know a military in a democracy and particularly ours is supposed to be strictly apolitical. This was a favorite tactic of Uncle Sam, the infiltration and politisizing of foreign armed forces particularly in South and Central America.
We must be able to count on our military whatever form of government we elect, because of the posts from the military members I suspect rather strongly that this is no longer a given.
 

Finder

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DarkBeaver.... To say you are apolitical is just words. Just like our policy in our armed forces is that you can not shave the top of your head because there are no skin heads in the Canadian armed forces. They think just because of that policy their are no skin heads. But their are many skin heads and neo-nazi's in the Canadian armed forces. At least when I was in the Froces and as long as they kept there most exteme racist comments to themselves or others who agreed with them, they were tolerated. I do not believe many of our officers are bad. They are actually pretty Liberal to centre right. It is largely a problem with mid to high level NCO's who actually do almost all the trianing and have the most contact with new privates.

The Canadian Armed forces when I was in it during the late 90's used varying degrees of brain washing. fueling us with deep commitments to conflic and violance, hard training and very little sleep which made us extremely tired and pretty much left us open to suggestion. Though it is well known the Americans use the same type of training. The training really does leave you in a haze and it is only really cleared near the end of your training when everthing appears to finally make sence. Who you are... you are a soldure for the Canadian armed forces trained to kill and not care. What you are doing here, to serve canada and take orders for those above you. Will you follow orders.... YES, even though during class you are briefly informed not to follow illegal orders but you are in such a haze that this... this doesn't stick at all. All you know is if there was a mine field infront of you and you are told to run over it, you are bound to do so... so if there were civilians on that field and you were told they were armed terrorists you would tend to then see it as you were told. The Canadian armed forces main cool is to program you into a killing machine. Now given I was in the Queens own and we were Infentry and paratroopers and were trained a lot harder then some other regiments as we were expected to be the best. But I'd suspect the training to make you into a killing machine was pretty much the same for everyone in QL2. My QL3 trained me further in this but there was a lot less brain washing and more training. Now if your Ql3 was to become a cook, or computer techie or something else perhaps it gets drilled into you less.

But the goal for the Canadian Armed forces is not to make a soldure which thinks, and decides if those cilivians are a real threat or not, it is to train you to merely take orders and use those killing skills to kill and feel as little remourse as you can feel.

I do not think many soldurers once they go threw this training could ever be a social democrat in the Canadian sence.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RE: Do socialists deserve

Canadian armed forces under US command
Michael Byers
I.
INTRODUCTION
It has been revealed that negotiations are under way to place a substantial part of the
Canadian armed forces – land and sea forces as well as air – under the operational control
of a permanent, integrated, US-led command structure.
1
The announced creation of a
“Northern Command”, unifying the continental US into a single military command, is a
logical precursor to an expansion that would include Canada and Canadian forces.
2
As
well, the joining of the Northern Command with the US command of NORAD (North
American Aerospace Defence Command), while perfectly sensible, already draws Canada
partially into the new structure. And yet many complex and overlapping questions are
raised by the prospect of Canada engaging in closer military co-operation with its southern
neighbour, either within or outside the context of the Northern Command.
What implications might the development of a closer military relationship have for
Canadian sovereignty, for Canada’s claim to jurisdiction in the Arctic, and for Canada’s
ability to maintain an independent foreign policy? What effects might it have on military
expenditure, on Canada’s ability to participate in overseas peacekeeping, and on
bilingualism, gender and sexual equality in the armed forces? What about Canada’s
commitments under those treaties that the US has not ratified, including Protocol One
Additional to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, the Ottawa Landmines Convention, and the
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, some of which are, in addition, actively
opposed by the US?
At present, these questions have not been answered; indeed the details of the proposed
arrangement have not been released. In light of these uncertainties, this report canvasses
some of the possible issues with a view to generating discussion about a seemingly
imminent development that could reshape fundamental aspects of Canadian sovereignty,
identity and foreign policy.
The report consciously adopts a “worst-case-scenario” approach, on the theory that any
responsible debate on this matter must consider the range of possible eventualities. It goes
without saying that the military partnership between Canada and the US is one of the most
important in the world. Asking tough questions, proceeding cautiously on new initiatives
and protecting against negative consequences will help to ensure that the partnership
continues to operate to the benefit of both countries.
1
See: Paul Knox, “What does the Canadian military have to prove?” Globe and Mail, 9 January 2002, A9;
Paul Koring & Daniel Leblanc, “Canada aims to join ‘Americas Command’,” Globe and Mail, 29 January
2002, A1; Jeffrey Simpson, “What matters is defence integration, not the Eggleton sideshow,” Globe and
Mail, 2