Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says


Jersay
#1
A Montreal school board went too far in imposing a blanket ban on the wearing of Sikh ceremonial daggers by students, says the Supreme Court of Canada.

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In an 8-0 judgment, the court overturned a decision that barred teenager Gurbaj Singh Multani from wearing the dagger, known as a kirpan, to class.

The court said a total ban can't pass muster under the Charter of Rights, because the policy infringes on guarantees of religious freedom.

But the court left room for some restrictions to be imposed on the carrying of kirpans in the name of public safety.

A number of schools in British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario have long permitted the wearing of kirpans subject to certain conditions.

The rules often include a size limit on the dagger, or a requirement to keep it sheathed and to wear it under clothing and out of sight.

Orthodox Sikhs, who make up about 10 per cent of the estimated 250,000 Sikhs in Canada, are required by their religion to wear the kirpan at all times.

The Montreal dispute arose in 2001 when Gurbaj Singh, the aged 12, first wore his kirpan to school.

Officials tried at first to work out a compromise that would allow him to continue wearing the religious emblem, but with some conditions for the sake of safety.

The governing council of the Margueriite-Bourgeoys school board overruled that approach and imposed a total ban.

During a Supreme Court hearing last April, Julius Grey, the lawyer for the Multani family, noted there has never been a school assault committed with a kirpan anywhere in Canada.

That amounts to "overwhelming empirical evidence that the kirpan is not a dangerous weapon," said Grey.

Francois Aquin, the lawyer for the Montreal board, retorted that there have never been any school assaults with kitchen knives either.

"That doesn't mean we will allow students to carry kitchen knives in school."

The case made its way to the high court after conflicting decisions at the provincial level.

A Quebec Superior Court judge ruled in Gurbaj Singh's favour in 2002, saying he could carry the kirpan under certain conditions - for example, if he kept it sewn into a cloth envelope to be worn beneath his clothing.

Quebec Court of Appeal reversed that decision in 2004, ruling that the school board had the power to impose a total ban.

Other precedents in other provinces have produced a patchwork of policies - not only in schools but in other public institutions.

For example, Sikh MPs can wear kirpans in the House of Commons and visitors can wear them in the public galleries.

It's all right to wear kirpans in the Supreme Court of Canada, but trial judges in some provinces have banned them from their courtrooms.

Most airlines once allowed passengers to wear kirpans with blades no longer than 10 centimetres. In the security crackdown that followed the 9-11 terrorist attacks, however, Transport Canada decreed a country-wide ban.

The judgment of the high court is confined to school situations and does not apply to other areas.

--
 
DasFX
#2
Excellent, we are now free to bring weapons to schools. Fantastic!
 
Jay
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

The rules often include a size limit on the dagger, or a requirement to keep it sheathed and to wear it under clothing and out of sight.


Ahhh concealed weapons to boot!
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
Avatar
#4
I agree with this decision; at my high school, Sikh students are permitted to wear the symbol. However, there is a zero-tolerance strategy in place for any threats or jokes made surrounding the use thereof, and they are required to remain sheathed at all times.

I see no problem with this — I don't feel any less safe as a result.
 
Jay
#5
My religion requires that I bring concealed automatic weaponry to school.
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
Avatar
#6
Jay, no, it doesn't.

I don't understand what the big deal is; I haven't heard of any reports of violence stemming from the use of a kirpan in a public place, least of all at a school; such a thing has never transpired at my school, nor do I think it's going to.
 
Jay
Avatar
#7
Yes it does....and no one has been hurt from my automatic weapons...not a one.


I can't wait to send my little gaffer to school...
 
Doryman
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox

Jay, no, it doesn't.

I don't understand what the big deal is; I haven't heard of any reports of violence stemming from the use of a kirpan in a public place, least of all at a school; such a thing has never transpired at my school, nor do I think it's going to.

Skinheads have never attacked anyone with batons and bicycle chains at my school either, but I don't think they should be allowed to tote them around. THis is another example of special interests triumphing over equal rights. If you are going to ban knives at school, you should ban all knives, secular or religious.
 
Colpy
Conservative
Avatar
#9
I myself am a High Priest of the Order of the Holy High Power.

Those of us who believe in the fundamentals of the High Power have taken an oath......we shall forever be with the High Power.

I was converted in 1978, when I first came to be with the High Power.

I speak, of course, of the icon, that version of Holiness, the Browning P-35 9mm High Power pistol.

I guess now I get to carry it everywhere, eh?

The point being, of course, that this is ridiculous. Indeed, even the Sikh carrying of the Kirpan is the fulfillment of an oath always to go armed. Funny how the same people who are bemused by our insistence that there is an ancient right to keep and bear arms, instantly leap to the defense of exactly the same philosophy if dressed in the cloth of religion and NOT practised by white males.

This is ludicrous.
 
Jay
Avatar
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

The point being, of course, that this is ridiculous. Indeed, even the Sikh carrying of the Kirpan is the fulfillment of an oath always to go armed. Funny how the same people who are bemused by our insistence that there is an ancient right to keep and bear arms, instantly leap to the defense of exactly the same philosophy if dressed in the cloth of religion and NOT practised by white males.

This is ludicrous.


Anything they can do to get in our way, trample on our rights and smear it in our face is satisfactory to them. This just proves it.


Can you imagine the mother of the child running out of the door after her son...."wait, wait....you forgot your dagger little one!"
 
Andem
Free Thinker
Avatar
#11
No weapons of any sort should be allowed at school.. that's not to mention there should be no religion or symbols thus allowed in public school systems. Catholic and Jewish/whatever type of schools can have their own rules, but keep it out of the public school system.
 
Mogz
Conservative
Avatar
#12
As usual people are missing the underlaying factors here:

Saying he can bring a knife to school because it is part of his religion is a flagrant contradiction to our way of life. In our nation, religion is not suppose to bear sway over safety and/or equality. However our society, as i've outlined in other posts, is slowly cartering more and more to the "minorty" groups. This dagger issue is the exact same as the cartoon issue. We won't stand up for our laws and rules for fear of offending the religious minority. It sickens me to be honest. I respect that it is his religion, however he lives in Canada, not dirkastan. In Canada we do not take weapons to school, and we do not deem our religion above the laws that are the foundation of this nation. My personal view, if he doesn't like our laws he should get the hell out of this country. It's been my stance for years. You came to Canada, became a part of our society, yet expect to tailor our way of life to your liking? Forgive me, but isn't that, well, wrong? Maybe i'm out to lunch, perhaps we should just let this guy tramp all over our national identity, perhaps we should just start allowing anybody of a religious minority do what they want. Before I sum up, let me pose this question to those that support this "ruling". You deem it acceptable for him to take a knife to school as it is a part of his religion. Well, can an arab beat his wife in public if she speaks with another man? Beat her so badly she could die? No? Well it is a part of his religion, and widely accepted in the arab world is it not? The general argument there would be; "well that's not legal in Canada, you can't beat someone to death". Neither is taking a knife to school, unless you're a minorty that is.
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
Avatar
#13
Colpy

One of the uses of the Browning High Power that has not been sufficiently exploited in my estimation is driving fence posts. I have hammers that don't weigh 2 pounds. At the very least, it is an attractive kosh.....
 
the caracal kid
#14
It is amazing the ways people will rationalize their prejudices.
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
Avatar
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Andem

No weapons of any sort should be allowed at school.. that's not to mention there should be no religion or symbols thus allowed in public school systems. Catholic and Jewish/whatever type of schools can have their own rules, but keep it out of the public school system.

Are these the same people who don't want Christmas decorations in the schools either? I suggest we change the constitution. It may be just my age showing through, but this bugs the hell out of me.
 
Colpy
Conservative
Avatar
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

Colpy

One of the uses of the Browning High Power that has not been sufficiently exploited in my estimation is driving fence posts. I have hammers that don't weigh 2 pounds. At the very least, it is an attractive kosh.....

Blasphemy!!

Now I'm gonna burn your embassy!

Have you tried for hate crimes!!

How Could you oppress me like this?
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
Avatar
#17
Sorry....that was a bit cruel. On the earlier thread about the sixty year old hand guns I defended the High Power. I intended to add on that thread that it is quite a heavy pistol. Some of the new ones out there are mostly plastic and carbon fibre and I wonder if they would suvive a four foot drop to the pavement. I know the High Power would.
 
annabattler
#18
Kirpans were first adopted by some Sikhs in the 1600's...they were mandated to "arm" themselves against some ruling power.Not all Sikhs adopted the use of a kirpan.
It is evidently now a "symbol" of a Sikh's duty to defend the helpless,the poor and the downtrodden.
That being said, religions and their use of symbols can and do change.
In this case,I think Kirpans should be worn for religious or ceremonial rites....not at school.
 
Jersay
#19
I think that if it is apart of their religion, all for it.
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
Avatar
#20
To my knowledge, a majority of the kirpans worn at my high school (although there are not many Sikhs in my school who choose to wear the ceremonial dagger) are blunted.
 
MMMike
#21
I think we have to be rational when looking at this: the kirpan is first and foremost a religious symbol. Yes, it can be used as a weapon but an inclusive society should first attempt to accomodate these religious beliefs without compromising public safety. And really, who thinks that allowing Sikhs to carry kirpans represents a significant risk? Come on! Any body could bring a knife to school whenever they want to do damage, and no law in the world is going to be able to prevent that.

It is completely reasonable to allow the kirpan, but put certain safeguards in place...
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Mogz

As usual people are missing the underlaying factors here:
Saying he can bring a knife to school because it is part of his religion is a flagrant contradiction to our way of life. In our nation, religion is not suppose to bear sway over safety and/or equality. However our society, as i've outlined in other posts, is slowly cartering more and more to the "minorty" groups. This dagger issue is the exact same as the cartoon issue. We won't stand up for our laws and rules for fear of offending the religious minority. It sickens me to be honest. I respect that it is his religion, however he lives in Canada, not dirkastan. In Canada we do not take weapons to school, and we do not deem our religion above the laws that are the foundation of this nation. My personal view, if he doesn't like our laws he should get the hell out of this country. It's been my stance for years. You came to Canada, became a part of our society, yet expect to tailor our way of life to your liking? Forgive me, but isn't that, well, wrong? Maybe i'm out to lunch, perhaps we should just let this guy tramp all over our national identity, perhaps we should just start allowing anybody of a religious minority do what they want. Before I sum up, let me pose this question to those that support this "ruling". You deem it acceptable for him to take a knife to school as it is a part of his religion. Well, can an arab beat his wife in public if she speaks with another man? Beat her so badly she could die?...

Quote has been trimmed
I must be coming down with something I agree with you.
 
Mogz
Conservative
#23
Quote:

I must be coming down with something I agree with you.

Great minds think alike
 
ashley_rb
#24
Well way to go Canada. First it was a court decision to allow gay marriage, dismantling the foundation of marriage between a man and woman. According to the courts, 2 men make for great parents to raise children: that is a dress wearing - makeup made - lip gossed guy who gets off on another guy with a lisp - 2 men who's sexual pervertion we all get to witness at the Gay Pride Parade - a leather thonged man riding on a float rubbing his crotch up against another man dressed with only a ball cup, a wink and a wee bit of blush. According to the courts, this makes for a great Canadian parent.

Today we have the court making another decision, Sikh children get to wear knifes to schools. So not only do Canadian children have no protection from dress yielding, thong rashed men, they now have to defend themselves from other children who have the legal right to arm themselves with knifes.

So Canadians stand up and be proud of your country. In Canada great parenting is now measured by the moral standards of the Gay Pride Parade and you get to witness a select group of armed children, who have the legal right to be armed in schools.

Oh Canada in deed!
 
Cosmo
Avatar
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by ashley_rb

Well way to go Canada. First it was a court decision to allow gay marriage, dismantling the foundation of marriage between a man and woman. According to the courts, 2 men make for great parents to raise children: that is a dress wearing - makeup made - lip gossed guy who gets off on another guy with a lisp - 2 men who's sexual pervertion we all get to witness at the Gay Pride Parade - a leather thonged man riding on a float rubbing his crotch up against another man dressed with only a ball cup, a wink and a wee bit of blush. According to the courts, this makes for a great Canadian parent.


OMG ... somebody perfected a time machine and brought you forward from the dark ages, I see.

Ashley, I'm a lesbian. If I could take those comments seriously, I would be most offended. Since they are such blatant foolishness, all I can do is say thanks for the chuckle and please, please stick around long enough for us to bring you into the 21st Century!

Edited to bring thread back on topic ...
Daggers in schools? Ummmmm .... this is Canada. We have certain laws around such things. I'd be the last one to curb anyone's right to expression (religious or otherwise) but has common sense flown entirely out the window? You want to carry daggers to school, choose to live in a country whose laws accommodate that. If you choose to live in Canada, adjust your items of worship to conform to sensible laws of the land. The dagger is a symbolic item and symbolic items do not have to be life size. Catholics don't go around carrying big wooden crosses, for example.

If a Wiccan child wanted to bring an athame to school, I would bet dollars to donuts it wouldn't even be considered. Nor should it be. Symbolism is a huge part of almost all religions, but one does not have to have the actual item itself, but a representation thereof.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by Mogz

Quote:

I must be coming down with something I agree with you.

Great minds think alike

So do idiots.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
Avatar
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Cosmo

Quote: Originally Posted by ashley_rb

Well way to go Canada. First it was a court decision to allow gay marriage, dismantling the foundation of marriage between a man and woman. According to the courts, 2 men make for great parents to raise children: that is a dress wearing - makeup made - lip gossed guy who gets off on another guy with a lisp - 2 men who's sexual pervertion we all get to witness at the Gay Pride Parade - a leather thonged man riding on a float rubbing his crotch up against another man dressed with only a ball cup, a wink and a wee bit of blush. According to the courts, this makes for a great Canadian parent.


OMG ... somebody perfected a time machine and brought you forward from the dark ages, I see.

Ashley, I'm a lesbian. If I could take those comments seriously, I would be most offended. Since they are such blatant foolishness, all I can do is say thanks for the chuckle and please, please stick around long enough for us to bring you into the 21st Century!

Damn you Cosmo you got to this ashley-rb thing first, foundation of marriage eh, are you one of gods chosen people ashley? You sound like a common bible toting bigot to me. You,re an example of what children should not ever be exposed to, hate.
 
Jersay
#28
Quote:

Well way to go Canada. First it was a court decision to allow gay marriage, dismantling the foundation of marriage between a man and woman. According to the courts, 2 men make for great parents to raise children: that is a dress wearing - makeup made - lip gossed guy who gets off on another guy with a lisp - 2 men who's sexual pervertion we all get to witness at the Gay Pride Parade - a leather thonged man riding on a float rubbing his crotch up against another man dressed with only a ball cup, a wink and a wee bit of blush. According to the courts, this makes for a great Canadian parent.

Today we have the court making another decision, Sikh children get to wear knifes to schools. So not only do Canadian children have no protection from dress yielding, thong rashed men, they now have to defend themselves from other children who have the legal right to arm themselves with knifes.

So Canadians stand up and be proud of your country. In Canada great parenting is now measured by the moral standards of the Gay Pride Parade and you get to witness a select group of armed children, who have the legal right to be armed in schools.

Oh Canada in deed!

Hi Ashley and welcome to Canadian forums. Now that is all I am going to say about you.

Now, I am all for bringing daggars into the school.

With my religion, believe I will now go to the Supreme Court and as for the allowance of a huge 'broadsword' I *still need to pursue* and a axe that were apart of my religion, to accompany me into the classroom. Because that is part of my religion.

And then I get to loot and pillage.
 
PoisonPete2
#29
ah the ugly face of religious intolerance. Do you suppose, perhaps that Rights and Freedoms are imbedded in the Constitution to protect minorities from the tyrany of the majority?
 
Jersay
#30
Of course.

And since I am a minority I should be able to bring my sword into my university. My religion is recognized in three countries.

And if you were talking to someone else then don't even bother listening to what I just said.
 

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