Canada increases troops

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Canada to boost troops in Afghanistan
Additional 1,300 soldiers headed to dangerous region as Americans return

TORONTO - When Glyn Berry, a Canadian diplomat, was killed by a suicide bomber last month in Afghanistan, many here saw it as a sign of more bloodshed to come.

Canada, which has stayed out of the Iraq war, is ramping up its forces this month to patrol the most dangerous area of Afghanistan and to assume command of 6,000 NATO troops as the United States turns over more of the fight to its allies.

The handoff coincides with a spike in Iraq-style roadside bombs, ambush attacks and suicide bombings in Afghanistan. Military and political leaders here worry the Canadian public, already sour on America and the Bush administration's "war on terror," is not psychologically ready for news of casualties.

And some predict that Canada's higher profile in Afghanistan may bring attacks home, as in London and Madrid.

"I don't think it's sunk in to the Canadian public how the world has changed. There is a high likelihood we will have significant losses of our troops," said John Watson, head of CARE-Canada, a relief agency that has operated in Afghanistan since 1961.

"There is also a chance that we will have an attack in Canada. Unlike the States or the United Kingdom, we haven't had to deal with that kind of incident" in more than 40 years, he said.

Tough talk from top brass
Canada's military brass has stepped up the blunt rhetoric in a campaign to prepare the public. Gen. Rick Hillier, chief of defense, has called the Taliban in Afghanistan "detestable murderers and scumbags," unusually crude language for Canadians.

"This is a dangerous mission. There is an enemy. We have had casualties," Hillier said by telephone Thursday. "But what we want to achieve there is worthwhile. Things that are worth doing are sometimes dangerous."

Some see this as a shift in the mission of the Canadian military. Since the Korean War, Canadian forces have been deployed almost exclusively for peacekeeping. Canada stayed out of Vietnam, played a support role in the Persian Gulf War, and is proud of its image as a neutral party.

"We're not really aggressive. People around the world know us as peacekeepers, not as people who go out and seek conflict," said Marcel Durette, 52, as he ate lunch in downtown Toronto. "Canada going after the Taliban? I find that hard to believe."

"I think there will be more of an outcry if people start seeing body bags and coffins," said Andy Cherniak, 41, a counselor eating at a nearby counter.

‘No longer a peacekeeping operation’
Joel J. Sokolsky, who is dean of arts and teaches at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ontario, said he thinks there will be public support for the Canadian mission "as long as the government is clear about what it is.

"The government must make it clear from the beginning that this is no longer a peacekeeping operation, it's a combination of counterinsurgency and reconstruction," he said.

But there has been no significant parliamentary debate, and Afghanistan "still is off the edge of the radar screen" of the Canadian public, said Stephen Northfield, foreign editor of the Globe and Mail newspaper.

"I don't think there is alarm yet," he said. "The Canadian public hasn't fully calibrated the level of risk. The Canadian involvement hasn't been that deep yet. And the change in the situation on the ground has been reasonably recent."

The death of Berry, 59, a political officer working on reconstruction projects in Afghanistan, has helped bring home the danger. Berry was the first Canadian diplomat killed overseas in 40 years. Three soldiers with him were badly injured when a suicide bomber struck their military convoy Jan. 15 near the southern city of Kandahar. The Taliban asserted responsibility for the attack.

U.S. reducing troop level
Canada has posted forces in Afghanistan since February 2002. But the Canadian contingent is set to increase to 2,200 from 900 by the end of February, and the troops have moved from their base in the capital, Kabul, to Kandahar, a region with heavy Taliban influence and frequent attacks by insurgents.

In March, Fraser will lead NATO's southern contingent of 6,000 troops, primarily Canadian, British and Dutch. The United States, with 19,000 troops in the country, has said it will reduce its forces to 16,500 this year.

Kandahar and southern Afghanistan have become increasingly dangerous as insurgents deploy tactics used in Iraq, including suicide bombings. There have been at least 15 such attacks since November, according to the Reuters news agency. After a bombing killed four U.S. soldiers Monday, a Taliban commander boasted of more attacks to come, according to Reuters. The Pentagon says there have been 266 U.S. fatalities in Afghanistan.

"They are copying tactics from Iraq because of their ineffectual tactics over the last two or three years," said Hilliard, who served in Afghanistan from February to August 2004. "They are trying to counter some progress in standing up an Afghan army and an Afghan government."

While warning about the dangers, Hilliard also describes the mission in terms more comfortable to the Canadian public.

"Our entire aim is to help Afghans rebuild their families so, in turn, families can rebuild their communities," he said. "We are helping build institutions."

Public sold ‘three D’s’
Echoing that line, the commander on the ground, Fraser, talks of the "three D's" -- defense, development and diplomacy.

Watson, whose relief agency kept working under the Taliban but now has withdrawn from Kandahar because of the danger, thinks that is unrealistic in southern Afghanistan.

"Development and diplomacy will get people shot," he said. "The military should be under no illusions that their posting is going to be the most dangerous since the Korean War. It is primarily a war-fighting exercise. They are dealing with an insurgency in that part of the country that is getting worse by the day."

Hilliard notes that other Canadian peacekeeping missions -- which include the Balkans, Congo, Somalia, Rwanda and Ethiopia -- have been dangerous. More than 100 Canadian soldiers have died in such missions in a half decade, including eight in Afghanistan since 2002.

"Canadian Forces have faced dangers before," Hilliard said. "They are ready for the job."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11418110/
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
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We've been at war in Afghanistan since 2001. The public has only taken an interest as of recently. Many were too wrapped up in this notion of "peacekeeping".
 

cortez

Council Member
Feb 22, 2006
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Re: RE: Canada increases troops

Mogz said:
We've been at war in Afghanistan since 2001. The public has only taken an interest as of recently. Many were too wrapped up in this notion of "peacekeeping".

this reminds me of george orwell novel 1984
remember how the totalitarian state in which the protagonist lived messed with language so that no one could clearly think about issues like this

one of the regime's central slogans was " war is peace"

in canada this has been modified to " war is peace-keeping"

its pretty confusing

untill like your all saying death comes to our troops or to your civilians and the truth is revealed in a very clear and direct way

"war is death"

are we ready to deal with DEATH?

i would say absolutely no

i have no doubt that if an incident with the magnitude of the madrid bombings were to occur here in canada it would be absolutely devastating physically and phsycologically-- and it would probably provoke a massive over-reaction , underreaction and disreaction from the authorities,

after seeing how the RCMP and CSIS completely and utterly messed up the investigation into the air-india bombing, our biggest attack of this nature to date-my confidence in a competant response- invvestigation is very low
 

ashley_rb

New Member
Mar 2, 2006
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Terrorists planning an attack on Canada is crazy. Terriosts must look at Canada and laugh:

The U.S. national treasure is its confidence and pride in being a world leader in defending peace. Canadians find peace at Tim Hortons.

The U.S. is a target because of its strong views and opinions of other countries and what they "should" be doing. Canadians strongest opinion is "cholocate tim bits are better then plain tim bits".

Seriously, the only reason Canada would be attacked if it was to hurt the U.S. And who would come to our rescue? We'd rebuid the Timmies, the U.S would fight off the terrorist.

Seriously compare Bush to Harper: Bush overseas meeting world leaders heavily secured, Stephen Harper on TV at his sons hockey game with 2 RCMP body guards. Oh yeah, we're a threat! Not.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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ashley_rb

You are being very aggressive for a new poster who doesn't know anyone. I would ask that you tone it down a bit. Thank you.


#juan.............moderator
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
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Edmonton
Some points:

untill like your all saying death comes to our troops or to your civilians and the truth is revealed in a very clear and direct way

The sad truth is that the Canadian public has been isolated from death since the close of the Vietnam War. In the last 30-40 years, over 140 Candian soldiers have been killed overseas. Does the public know of this? By and large, no. When the Liberal Government began to chop up our Forces decades ago, the public lost interest. We sat by and watched the Government take away our combat capability; Aircraft Carriers, Bombers, Air Superiority Fights, Infantry Brigades, Submarines. All of these things were slashed, and along with the slashing went the publics respect and care for the very institution that defends them. Does anyone on these forums remember Master Corporal Mark "Izzy" Isfeld? I highly doubt it. He was killed in Croatia in 1994, rescuing children from a minefield. His selfless death didn't even receive a mention at home in Canada. Croatians remember him, and to this day honour what he did for children he never knew. Does anyone know of the Medak Pocket? The 2nd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry was completely surrounded by a Croatian Mechanized Brigade in the fall of 1993. For the better part of three days the Patricias fought off everything the Croats threw at them, ultimately pushing through the Croat lines and linking up with relief forces. In this engagement, not a single Canadian soldier was killed (several were wounded), and the Croat body count was estimated at over 200. Did this make the news? No, the most it made (that i'm aware of), is a small article in the Edmonton Journal in the C Section, back page. My point? The public only recently has taken an interest in what we as a fighting force do. Is the public prepared for casualties? I don't think so. We've lost nine (9) soldiers in Afghanistan since 2001, not a bad ratio considering the Germans have lost eighteen (18) and the U.S. has lost over 200. Our public needs to come to terms with the fact that soldiers are expected to die. I know it sounds morbid, but the true be told, a soldier is trained, and equipped, to go in to harms way. The lack of interest in the CF over the years has isolated the public from this crucial fact. We are not a peacekeeping nation as the news paints us, we are a war fighting nation, a fact clearly outlined in our history. People better come to terms with that, and come to terms quickly.

Terrorists planning an attack on Canada is crazy. Terriosts must look at Canada and laugh:

I think your comments are somewhat off-the-cuff ashley. Terrorist do not look at this nation and laugh. In fact in Afghanistan the Taliban and Al-qaeda have declared Canadian soldiers as "worth adversaries" and much more significant threat than U.S. soldiers. At home, we prove an excellent target to hurt the U.S. considering our two nations do over a BILLION dollars in trade a DAY. One massive car bomb on the Ambassador Bridge between Windsor and Detroit would hurt the U.S. economy on an epic scale. Furthermore we are one of the top eight (8) industrailized nations on the planet. Our position of wealth and global influence are seen as a hurdle to muslim extremists.

The U.S. national treasure is its confidence and pride in being a world leader in defending peace. Canadians find peace at Tim Hortons.

Often the U.S. sense of pride is their undoing. They fail to look at the big picture and analyze what they say and do on the international stage. Yes, Canadians are more reserved. In many ways that's a good thing.

The U.S. is a target because of its strong views and opinions of other countries and what they "should" be doing. Canadians strongest opinion is "cholocate tim bits are better then plain tim bits".

If you think our international opinions boil down to doughnuts, then I suggest you turn on a TV and become a part of the 21st Century. Considering our nation is listed in the top six (6) enemies of Islam (as decreed by Al-qaeda), I'm inclined to believe our opinions extend a tad further than food.

Seriously compare Bush to Harper: Bush overseas meeting world leaders heavily secured, Stephen Harper on TV at his sons hockey game with 2 RCMP body guards. Oh yeah, we're a threat! Not.

Why does Harper need more than a two man bodyguard team in his own Country? Ever seen a politcal figure from Canada go overseas? They have a joint RCMP-Military Police Close Protection Team (CPT) that goes everywhere with them. In some cases members of JTF-2 escort them in hot-spots.

To wrap up, be critical all you want, it just highlights your ignorance as to the World you live in. You can mock the Canadian society, deem us not a threat, deem that no ones cares about us. However if that's the case, explain this;

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/03/03/canada-suicide060303.html
 

cyberclark

Electoral Member
The reports I get back point to Afganistan as being a no rules absolute wild west show. The US running another torcher prison there doesn't help much.

It is extreme! I can't for the life of me figure why Harper would want to go there rather than make a decision on Health Care in Canada.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
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The reports I get back point to Afganistan as being a no rules absolute wild west show. The US running another torcher prison there doesn't help much.

It is extreme! I can't for the life of me figure why Harper would want to go there rather than make a decision on Health Care in Canada.

Wel your "reports" you get are highly inaccurate. Only portions of the nation are lawless. Take th North, especially around Kabul and it's quite contained. The Afghan National Army and Kabul Police Force patrol the city, and in my opinion are well trained for the job, and highly motivated. In the South, that's where the issues lay. Hence why we've moved in there. It's a Taliban Stronhold, and we'll crack it, just like we did in the North.

Yes perhaps Harper should make a call on Health Care, howevever what good does having an excellent health care sysmte do us, if our nation is no longer safe from terror. However i'd like to highlight that Canada has been in Afghanistan since 2001...long before Harper ever got in to office. Might want to scale back your rhetoric and catch up on the news.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
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the caracal kid said:
Colpy said:
I think not said:
Yep, you're at war!


Absolutely!

But careful, some Canadians might hear you.


SSSSHHHHHHH.

no worries, most have probably taken to that new canadian euphemism for war: peacemaking.

Well, wouldn't that be the Coffeshop Cadres of the nation propagating that view? From what I've seen, every soldier and officer, since we went of Afghanistan, have been saying we're at war. The ideas about peacekeeping come from the uninformed public, who prefer to believe that the Canadian Armed Forces ( sorry Canadian Forces.. we aren't armed anymore... :roll: ) are boy scouts and international traffic police.

Of course, as soon as Hillier mentioned that a soldiers job is to fight and, possibly, kill, and that the Canadian Army is in Afghanistan to fight a war and hunt down terrorists, the canadian people got pretty peeved. They protested in the streets of Vancouver, about "racist newfie murderers". I know, I was there.
Telling the truth seems pretty horrible nowadays, seems like the Canadian people are the ones pushing for the "War is Peace" mentality. But who can blame them? After all, roadside bombs don't often ignite on the road to Starbucks.
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
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Where is Hillier going to get these extra troops? A recent article I read stated that "It is taking two plus years just to do a security check on those that pass the recruitment stage". Would you wnat to put your life on hold for two plus years, I wouldn't. The Army and Reserves are going to be maxed out, our boys are doing tours that are to close to each other. I wonder what the devorce rate is for the Army. In a ideal world the Navy Personel would be trained to serve not just on a Frigate but with he Army as well, the same for our Air Force regardless of trade.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
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Sassylassie said:
Where is Hillier going to get these extra troops? A recent article I read stated that "It is taking two plus years just to do a security check on those that pass the recruitment stage". Would you wnat to put your life on hold for two plus years, I wouldn't. The Army and Reserves are going to be maxed out, our boys are doing tours that are to close to each other. I wonder what the devorce rate is for the Army. In a ideal world the Navy Personel would be trained to serve not just on a Frigate but with he Army as well, the same for our Air Force regardless of trade.

Ideal, yes, but that would take years of training. Naval Personnel on ship do things like Fire Ex's every day to ensure that they can keep their ship safe. Army personnel train for different tactics continuously to maintain their skills. Air force intensely practice their sitting skills, daily. :lol: if you were to switch these guys between the Elements, they'd end up being only semi-competent in either.

The solution is to up the recruitment, and swell the ranks of the forces. Until then, the Reg force guys are going to have to work like dogs, and the Reservists are going to have to be called up.
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
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Those are fighting words Dory, I married a Sea King Pilot. Wait he spent most of his time on his ass. Yep you're right, I withdraw my objection.
 

cyberclark

Electoral Member
There seems to be a carrot on a stick drawing Armed Forces personel into the Oil Patch. Two young men who have a couple tours behind them turned in their resignations when asked to go back to Afganistan in the present situation. They both went to the 'patch where they stand to make twice what they were in the forces.

Young guys with families; I sure appreciate their choice and wished them well.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
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St. John's
Sassylassie said:
Those are fighting words Dory, I married a Sea King Pilot. Wait he spent most of his time on his ass. Yep you're right, I withdraw my objection.

Or in the North Atlantic!! That job takes guts, at least MCDV's and Frigates can't FALL into the water!!! :D
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
Re: RE: Canada increases troops

ashley_rb said:
Terrorists planning an attack on Canada is crazy. Terriosts must look at Canada and laugh:

The U.S. national treasure is its confidence and pride in being a world leader in defending peace. Canadians find peace at Tim Hortons.

The U.S. is a target because of its strong views and opinions of other countries and what they "should" be doing. Canadians strongest opinion is "cholocate tim bits are better then plain tim bits".

Seriously, the only reason Canada would be attacked if it was to hurt the U.S. And who would come to our rescue? We'd rebuid the Timmies, the U.S would fight off the terrorist.

Seriously compare Bush to Harper: Bush overseas meeting world leaders heavily secured, Stephen Harper on TV at his sons hockey game with 2 RCMP body guards. Oh yeah, we're a threat! Not.

This is your own personal dreamworld, it does not exist. Obviously Canada is not as bag a target as the US, as the US represents western power. But Canada is named in the list of top 5 countries to be attacked by al qaeda, and three of the top 5 have been hit so far. Your idea that everyone loves Canada and we all eat doughnuts and give each other the reacharound is utterly amazing. I think you might be watching too much CBC for your own good.

I doubt the Canadian would be able to handle a terrorist attack like the one in the UK or Madrid, let alone an attack the scale of 9'11. I think the public would go into denial that anyone could possibly want to kill us.....

Canada's relative isolation from the world gives us a sense of security which we would not have were we living next door to the enemy. Peacekeeping has become buried into the public mind...that any conflict where we are not neutral will be opposed...even if it is for the better of the faceless people of afghanistan. The fact that the US is involved is reason enough to oppose, which is a sad reality.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
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Vancouver, BC
Hank C, I would assert that United States involvement has never been a factor in determining whether or not to participate in military efforts abroad; the decision not to participate in the intervention in Iraq, for example, was made as a result of debate in the House of Commons that precipitated in the voting of a majority of members to adopt a motion to refrain from opting into the intervention.

The debate, if you had seen it, would convince you that this decision was made because the intervention would not have been in the best interest of Canada at the time — therefore, the House decided to adopt a Bloc Québecois motion to stay out of the intervention, notwithstanding the opposition of the Right Honourable Stephen Harper.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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www.kdm.ca
dory,

one of perhaps the great deceptions played on the canadian populace comes through the media/mainstream euphemisms.

the populace is told soldiers are "peacekeepers", or "peacemakers", or some other term, along with (up until recently) a carefully controlled imagry of the forces. When the truth is revealed, it should be no surprise there is a backlash. The truth about the military and its operations are much less attractive than the "postcard" version used to sell it. Propaganda works wonders, so long as it is not undermined.